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You can get an OS Land Raider through Codex: Inquisition once they finally update it.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Honestly, I just had a game this weekend and people are wanting to go with rhinos and psybacks, after seeing a full mechanized army go forth with rhinos and razorbacks, they are just targets for heavy weapons teams. My GKs even destroyed them with ease DS in the back of them and just nailing their rear armor to death.

As much as people want to rely on the armored strategy, I think it would be better to rely on things like land raiders and storm ravens. I broke out my storm raven for the first time in a long time and it was one of my best units.

It just makes me skeptical on relying on rhinos and razorbacks when to me GKs have better options. Like always, a lot of my army got hit pretty hard and I was left with few units but GK have mobility with DS and teleport that by playing the mission, I won the game despite having the odds stacked against me.

The problems with this approach are twofold; Land Raiders and Ravens don't have OS so a single OS model can take the objective from them without having to actually to kill them (not to mention the Raven struggling to get within range of most objectives), and also you are assuming that a bunch of Marines on foot are going to be any harder to kill than a Rhino. Remember 6th edition, where both Marines and vehicles died in droves? Vehicles got harder to kill; Marines didn't. Nobody is acting like 6 AV11 hulls going forward is going to be invincible or anything, but it will be the standard and will be the best shot for Marines; the only downsides are when people make the faulty assumption to expect more.

But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so. I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die. So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation? For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas

@envihon, that is a good point.

In addition to the fact that henchmen psybacks ("henchbacks"?) have the disadvantages already mentioned, it is expensive to buy that many.

I agree with @leth when he says that a couple of them are useful, but you need to have meat in the list to do the real work. A list with troops consisting entirely of henchbacks would be awful.

As between LR/C/R and Stormravens, I think my raven is going to get a lot of use. I think my preferred loadout is leaning towards assault cannons, Hurricane Bolter sponsons, MM with psybolts, just because it seems to take better advantage of the 20pts required to pay for psybolts. Still toying with the HB rather than the MM, might actually go with that in the end.

One thing re your comment, don't take psybolts on 5 man squads. Take 10man squads and combat squad them.

Also remember that you can put a combat squadded unit into the same rhino/stormraven/LR, potentially allowing you to assault 2 different units out of the SR/LR.

MarkCron wrote:
@envihon, that is a good point.

In addition to the fact that henchmen psybacks ("henchbacks"?) have the disadvantages already mentioned, it is expensive to buy that many.

I agree with @leth when he says that a couple of them are useful, but you need to have meat in the list to do the real work. A list with troops consisting entirely of henchbacks would be awful.

As between LR/C/R and Stormravens, I think my raven is going to get a lot of use. I think my preferred loadout is leaning towards assault cannons, Hurricane Bolter sponsons, MM with psybolts, just because it seems to take better advantage of the 20pts required to pay for psybolts. Still toying with the HB rather than the MM, might actually go with that in the end.

One thing re your comment, don't take psybolts on 5 man squads. Take 10man squads and combat squad them.

Also remember that you can put a combat squadded unit into the same rhino/stormraven/LR, potentially allowing you to assault 2 different units out of the SR/LR.

The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.

The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.

Absolutely that's possible. I think they even said as much in the 6th edition FAQ.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.

Absolutely that's possible. I think they even said as much in the 6th edition FAQ.

That would make me actually want to try some psybacks for my GKSS and would offer some survivability. It is still an increase in cost in an already expensive army though which is most of my hesitation for DT in GK.

I am only running two(mainly because GK are my allies) but for 130 points or so getting 4 warp charges and two OS units is not bad. Combined with a banisher in one unit or so it gives some nice back up against daemons.

I just tried a dreadknight and storm raven with MM and lascannon today and it was pretty powerful. I threw a unit of 5 scouts in the storm raven, used my skyshield to start it on the table and just proceeded to put the hurt on multiple units all game while my dreadknight shunted and scared half his army and absorbed all the shots while I played to the objectives. Still managed to survive and get both the warlord and a riptide(Dat force)

@Leth, Have you also tried the SR with the hb, assault cannon combo? Keen to hear people who have experience with that, cos I've only just assembled mine and haven't got a game in with it yet.

It'd be great if people could let me know their experiences how a GK SR, with HB, Assault cannons and Hurricane bolter sponsons (with psybolt) does?

Are the sponsons worth it?

MarkCron wrote:
@Leth, Have you also tried the SR with the hb, assault cannon combo? Keen to hear people who have experience with that, cos I've only just assembled mine and haven't got a game in with it yet.

It'd be great if people could let me know their experiences how a GK SR, with HB, Assault cannons and Hurricane bolter sponsons (with psybolt) does?

Are the sponsons worth it?

Shreds infantry. Take the sponsons. Those 6 twin-linked bolters? Yeah, they're essentially Heavy Bolters firing (str 5). It's a pretty deadly flying platform that's both expensive and shreds any infantry (weight of fire) and light vehicles. This and the Fire Raptor are the only two flyers that can put out this weight of destructive firepower on a durable frame.

The problem is that if you are doing that you want to go full psybolt ammo and side guns. However at that point the storm raven is like 250+ points. There are plenty of other places you can get anti infantry fire power quite easily without the large investment.

However that is a personal preference for my current list, and I am building my second storm raven in that kit out(other than multi-melta instead of heavy bolter because machine spirit)

 Envihon wrote:


The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.

As others have said, you can definitely do that. But, it gets (a bit) better. If you take a squad of 10 purifiers, you can take 4 incinerators, plus give the rest halberds plus a seasoning of hammers to taste. Then combat squad them. Now you have two squads of 5, each with 2 incinerators, a hammer and a couple of halberds. (or any mix thereof you like).

Now, you can put both squads in the same SR or LR/C/R....That means that you can:

a) Assault 2 different units, casting cleansing flame for each assault; or
b) Have 2 squads assault the same unit, casting cleansing flame twice (need to make sure you have warp charge for this);

Alternatively, you can put one combat squad into say a LRC/R, and put the other one in a SR. And, for maximum hilarity, take a GM and grand strategy the Purifier unit (before you combat squad).

Course, you can do the same trick with a Rhino, but imo if you are going to spend the points for purifiers, give them something they can assault out of.

Sample list for a pure GK army (no henchmen) in the spoiler.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
The problem is that if you are doing that you want to go full psybolt ammo and side guns. However at that point the storm raven is like 250+ points. There are plenty of other places you can get anti infantry fire power quite easily without the large investment.

However that is a personal preference for my current list, and I am building my second storm raven in that kit out(other than multi-melta instead of heavy bolter because machine spirit)

Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to as well. If I'm going to pay 20pts for psybolt ammo, I wanted to have as many guns as possible and use psybolts everywhere. But multi melta seems like a good option as well.... can't decide

I magnetised my Raven sponsons and turret (also so I could remove the wings for storage). It wasn't as bad as I thought, so PM me if you want some pics.

Honestly I am more of a fan of 5 man purifier units in rhinos with two psycannons. They can cast cleaning flame, as well as fire both psycannons out of the hatch. If the rhino gets destroyed, meh. until it does its giving you a relatively cheap warp charge.

Or even if you dont put them inside, still another warp charge and you are gonna need those for GKs.

Fair enough. Question : If you combat squad, do you get 1 warp charge or 2?

MarkCron wrote:
Fair enough. Question : If you combat squad, do you get 1 warp charge or 2?

Bets are on two. Both treated as separate units each with Brotherhood of Psykers.

Excellent, that's what I thought, but helps to know others think that too!

Interestingly, maelstrom missions seem to do a lot to mitigate GKs mobility problems. In the few games of 7th I've played so far, it seems like opponents have been forced to advance across the board with their mobile units, and turn 1 assaults are absolutely possible if you go second, even with footslogging units. If you concentrate infantry deployment to coincide with objectives placed in no-man's-land, you can more or less guarantee engagement in turn 1. Even against slower armies, the general GK 24" range limit rarely leaves us without targets anymore. Everyone is forced to spread out and try to gain board control. Castling is no longer a thing (at least in maelstrom missions). Whereas before you might have been faced with a hard defensive nut to crack, now an enemy will have to get out there and risk our shooting and assault.

I really think GKs (as one of the most adaptable factions) have what it takes to dominate maelstrom missions. You need a very flexible list and sound-to-excellent understanding of the units and tactics you're up against, but as top-level generalists, GKs can win.

All my losses in 7th can be easily put down to mistakes on my part, rather than an enemy's impenetrable strategy or 'bad rolling', and I haven't come up against any units that couldn't be dealt with or effectively ignored.

Maybe that's always been the case with GKs, but I'm a 1 year novice.

I would be very interested to hear about strategies Vs. Specific factions. Units to watch out for, units to ignore etc. without being specific to tactics. Just a general feeling when going up against a certain faction.

For example:

Against Daemons: A great matchup for us thanks to all out Daemon-specific special rules. Our grenades make all daemons(and psykers) I1, and preferred enemy is a huge boost in hitting AND wounding (don't forget it works in overwatch). A lot of T3 troop choices make our troops with psybolts ideal for cleaning them off objectives. Coteaz attached to a good shooty unit is huge, and with a bit of luck can take out whole deep striking units as they arrive. You can't really go wrong with sanctic powers, and remember to get hammerhand and force off on any units near a monstrous creature. You should habe enough WC to neutralise a significant chunk of their psychic powers. If they're going daemon factory; try to take out those key units early.

Daemons have a mobility advantage, but as stated above, you can let them come to you.

Watch out for daemonettes in cc due to their rending attacks!

Really, if you remember all the special advantages we have over daemons, you'll be hard-pressed to go wrong.


I'd be interested to hear about strategies for dealing with green tide orks and mechanised AM.

Well, from a Cron perspective:

a) Put penetrating hits onto all the vehicles ASAP. Remember that quantum shielding only works on F/S, so back shots are 11 all the time. Once you get a penetrating hit, move onto the next one. It is much easier to kill an AV 11 vehicle.

b) Put the whole squad down. If you are going to shoot at a Necron squad, keep shooting until the entire unit is down. Otherwise you'll be wasting your time, particularly if it is warriors and ghost arks are around.

c) Do not think invisibility will protect you from Anni Barges. It won't. TL tesla can stack shots onto flyers and invisible units.

d) In combats, get at least two models into B2B with anything with mindshackle scarabs.

e) Your vehicles are dead. Dead, dead, dead. That includes Landraiders. Good news is that they will probably end up wrecked rather than explode. Plan accordingly and always position so you get useful cover from the wreck.

f) Deathmarks have rapid fire rending sniper rifles. They are dangerous even if you aren't marked.

g) All necron skimmers are open topped so we can assault out of them. But, most of the time, they won't. Beware Ghost arks with lords or overlords in them, especially if the warriors don't shoot.

h) If you see Zandhrek, remember he can take away hit and run. He can also give the blob furious charge or counter attack. Oh, and tank hunters. And stealth. Also, the necron player can bring in deep striking reserves on YOUR turn. They can't shoot or move, but if they get lucky, they can contest the objective.

And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?

Edit, cos I thought of a couple more.

Thanks for the input. I still haven't come up against necrons, so it's great to have a little primer when the time comes.

MarkCron wrote:

And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?

Not usually, unless you are tailoring vs hoard on foot. The OSR is not accurate enough (always scatters full 2d6) to justify it's cost, and the units that can take it are either already very expensive and put to better use elsewhere (Grand Master, brother captain) or are competing for your FOC slots with better choices (tech marine). Either way, you're paying a minimum of 140 pts for a model that can't do a lot else and might not do anything at all.

Actually, now that list tailoring is totally a valid thing to do in 7th, my answer should be: yes, if you're facing a hoard foot army.

I find the thing with GK list building is to try to find ways of using units that they're already good at without upgrades, or only with the best value upgrades (like psybolt). That way you can mitigate our greatest weakness (few models) by getting more boots on the board.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Thanks for the input. I still haven't come up against necrons, so it's great to have a little primer when the time comes.

MarkCron wrote:

And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?

Not usually, unless you are tailoring vs hoard on foot. The OSR is not accurate enough (always scatters full 2d6) to justify it's cost, and the units that can take it are either already very expensive and put to better use elsewhere (Grand Master, brother captain) or are competing for your FOC slots with better choices (tech marine). Either way, you're paying a minimum of 140 pts for a model that can't do a lot else and might not do anything at all.

I remember when Techmarines are fun to take to get 2+ coversave ruins for shooty henchmen squads.. Then Heldrakes came along. :(

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.

I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.

That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.

Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.

Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.

Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)

I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.

Yet you fill them with a much more expensive squad!? Lol. Instead of a psyker and two bare acolytes you want to spend 15 points on a crusader and 14 points on one melta acolyte. 21 points more. (And if that three man henchmen squad doesn't go in the psyback, then you are WAY WAY WAY overpaying for a tiny squad that will still die quickly to a stiff breeze.

 Envihon wrote:
But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.

5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.

 Envihon wrote:
I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.

I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.

 Envihon wrote:
So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?

See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.

 Envihon wrote:
For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas

I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.

I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.

That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.

Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.

Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.

Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)

ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?

I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save. A flamer still ruins your day. What the extra bodies do provide is at least some hope that if miraculously only one model dies the unit won't break and run. Frankly, I don't care how people get the extra survivability as long as there is *some*.

Btw, I'm not saying that you shouldn't take 3 henchmen in a psyback. I think a couple are fine to boost your OS troops and to provide bait for the opponent to shoot at. What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice. Hell, for the cost of one HenchBack you can have 3 squads of 5 acolytes running around. If anything, I'd prefer that (assuming you have troop slots left). In fact, as a general tactic if you've paid the Coteaz tax anyway, consider always filling up your troop slots. For 27 points, you can have 3 groups of 3 acolytes running around. They *might* do something useful.

Super Newb wrote:

I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.

Yet you fill them with a much more expensive squad!? Lol. Instead of a psyker and two bare acolytes you want to spend 15 points on a crusader and 14 points on one melta acolyte. 21 points more. (And if that three man henchmen squad doesn't go in the psyback, then you are WAY WAY WAY overpaying for a tiny squad that will still die quickly to a stiff breeze.

Play much GK? Even in 6th Rhinos and razorbacks were necessary to keep the EVEN MORE expensive GKSS away from heldrakes etc, if only for a couple of turns. The vehicles are also useful as mobile (or immobile ) LOS blocking cover. So, paying a few extra points so that the henchmen inside can do something useful (or survives longer) once the vehicle dies isn't a waste. To repeat, use whatever method floats your boat to keep that henchmen squad alive longer. You only have 6 troop slots, with DT, thats 12. With Grand strategy, 3-6 more. If you waste the 6 troop slots on units of 3 henchmen, you're pushing it uphill.

In fact, given that Maelstrom (whatever variant is played) is a thing, it is MORE important that the OS troop unit survives. Objective secured is really, really valuable.

[edit to fix rule whoopsie!]

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.

I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.

That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.

Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.

Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.

Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)

ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?

How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)

Except that all those additional points beyond the minimum for the henchmen are taking away points that could be more usefully spent elsewhere. I dont know about you but I always find I need to cut points rather than having points to spare on frivalous stuff.

 Enigwolf wrote:

How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)

Yeah, I just corrected that post. Sorry, my Cron background slipped in there.

@leth, Agreed. The appropriateness of increasing Henchback squad sizes depends entirely on what the rest of the list contains. If you only have henchbacks, I say it is necessary. If you don't, henchbacks are fine.

MarkCron wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)

Yeah, I just corrected that post. Sorry, my Cron background slipped in there.

Well now, here's an idea for an Unbound list. GKSS in Ghost Arks.

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.

I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.

That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.

Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.

Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.

Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)

ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?

WOW. (I'm going to ignore your incredible credibility destroying jink mistake and focus on the other stuff). You are one of those intuitive minded folk who thinks with their "gut" aren't you? Nothing inherently wrong with that, but wrong in this context - number crunching is your friend in this game. Anyway I said nothing about spamming. I said your IDEAL (your words) loadout for a razorback squad is terrible. I responded specifically to this point. Your claim is so silly to me that I had to respond to it. Literally no competitive player would say your three man henchmen squad loadout is remotely a good one. And if you actually did the math you would know having a crusader is a horrendously bad idea as in almost every situation in that squad so it would be a WASTE OF POINTS. Competitive lists don't like to waste points.

I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save.

. 1) Perfectly valid? But your specific 3 man squad is "ideal" allegedly. So which is it? 2) Do the math. A Crusader is a costly (in the context of cheap henchmen squads) points sink, that almost never benefits you for the points spent on it. Ditto the lone melta gun acolyte, although a bit less of a point sink. If you hope your lone melta acolyte is going to accomplish anything your game is already in big trouble.

What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice.

No. Just no. What you said to me, the whole reason I responded to you has nothing to do with spamming. I quoted what you said. That's the topic of discussion between you and I.

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.

I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.

That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.

Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.

Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.

Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)

ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?

WOW. (I'm going to ignore your incredible credibility destroying jink mistake and focus on the other stuff). You are one of those intuitive minded folk who thinks with their "gut" aren't you? Nothing inherently wrong with that, but wrong in this context - number crunching is your friend in this game. Anyway I said nothing about spamming. I said your IDEAL (your words) loadout for a razorback squad is terrible. I responded specifically to this point. Your claim is so silly to me that I had to respond to it. Literally no competitive player would say your three man henchmen squad loadout is remotely a good one. And if you actually did the math you would know having a crusader is a horrendously bad idea as in almost every situation in that squad so it would be a WASTE OF POINTS. Competitive lists don't like to waste points.

Well, firstly, thanks for ignoring the credibility destroying Jink mistake (which, by the way, means there is even less reason to mech up compared to 6th)

Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.

This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.

Super Newb wrote:

I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save.

. 1) Perfectly valid? But your specific 3 man squad is "ideal" allegedly. So which is it? 2) Do the math. A Crusader is a costly (in the context of cheap henchmen squads) points sink, that almost never benefits you for the points spent on it. Ditto the lone melta gun acolyte, although a bit less of a point sink. If you hope your lone melta acolyte is going to accomplish anything your game is already in big trouble.

As I said above, the purpose of the crusader in my ideal squad is to get to roll a dice AT ALL. Your bodies points are valid, but not, imho, ideal, because you don't get to roll. They wound, you pick the models up.

As I said, I respect people's opinions and uses of mathhammer and across thousands of games you are probably correct. In reality, each D6 thrown has a 1/6 chance of being any number from 1-6. And with 3++, I have a 2/3 chance of saving. Without it, 0.

Re the meltagun, again, the purpose was simply to increase the chance of doing something. If I was spamming henchbacks, I'd take them.

Super Newb wrote:

What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice.

No. Just no. What you said to me, the whole reason I responded to you has nothing to do with spamming. I quoted what you said. That's the topic of discussion between you and I.

That comment a couple of pages ago was made in response to a comment that the standard build should be psyback, 2xacolyte, psyker. I agree that is A build, not a STANDARD build. In case you haven't noticed, GK army lists are appearing that have nothing but these "standard" builds as troops and those lists have some serious problems. I used the term ideal to try and combat that "standard". I should have specifically said "my ideal" but then again I would have thought that was obvious.

In practice everyone should tailor their henchmen builds to what they are trying to achieve. I've just put a list up in the army list forum, and in that list I take a henchback. Why? Because I need that psyback for a combat squadded GKSS unit. I also take 4 henchman squads with 2 acolytes, 1 psyker and no psyback. Why? Because I needed the warp charges to power cleansing flame for my scoring purifiers. I also have scoring GKSS, hopefully scoring DK - so in the game I really don't care that much if the henchmen get eliminated.

Imho, there appears to be a general perception that a "competitive" GK army is going to spam henchbacks. I think that perception is incorrect.

GK strengths are psycannons, psybolts, Grand strategy, Santic (although this is a bit more unreliable). Henchmen are a necessary evil because our main units are too costly. So, henchmen should be looked at as a supplement, not the basis for bolting a couple of GK units around.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:

MarkCron wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)

Yeah, I just corrected that post. Sorry, my Cron background slipped in there.

Well now, here's an idea for an Unbound list. GKSS in Ghost Arks.

Good god man, purifiers in Ghost Arks. Can you imagine that - GA pops the rhino, purifiers cleansing flame, shoot, then assault out of the Ark. Probably why we can't have anything open topped.

You know lately I've been thinking of allying GK with the Militarum Tempestus...

I have a 2 box of scions laying around unassembled, I could grab 2 Taurox cheap, slap augur arrays on that for a deepstike without scatter, give it scouting with Grand Strategy.

So we get a 36 inch move T1, easily taking control of midfield on T2 as the Taurox gets supported by no scatter deep striking units on T2.

Only problem is keeping the damn paper mache boxes alive that long...

Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.

This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.

Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.

Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'

There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.