Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Quickjager wrote:
You know lately I've been thinking of allying GK with the Militarum Tempestus...

I have a 2 box of scions laying around unassembled, I could grab 2 Taurox cheap, slap augur arrays on that for a deepstike without scatter, give it scouting with Grand Strategy.

So we get a 36 inch move T1, easily taking control of midfield on T2 as the Taurox gets supported by no scatter deep striking units on T2.

Only problem is keeping the damn paper mache boxes alive that long...

Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkCron wrote:

Good god man, purifiers in Ghost Arks. Can you imagine that - GA pops the rhino, purifiers cleansing flame, shoot, then assault out of the Ark. Probably why we can't have anything open topped.

Stormlords?

 Enigwolf wrote:


Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?

Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.

But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"

Quickjager wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?

Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.

But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"

Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Quickjager wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?

Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.

But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"

Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.

Very true, too bad we can't assault out of it on T1 because of the Scout rule, I guess we could stick a... purifier squad in it, shunt two DK up with them and on T2 deepstrike in the Termies or a Scion squad full of meltaguns.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.

5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.

 Envihon wrote:
I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.

I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.

 Envihon wrote:
So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?

See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.

 Envihon wrote:
For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas

I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?

I started playing at the end of 5th. I was originally going to play Daemonhunters until my friend told me to wait until the GK codex dropped since my original interest was in the Grey Knights themselves in the Daemonhunters. I only first picked up the Eldar in 6th though when I was getting bored of doing the same thing over and over so I took up the Eldar since they were the original army that got me interested in Warhammer 40k.

And the 5 man comment can now be redacted after I learned that with combat squading you can use the psybacks for only 5 of the GKSS and DS the rest in, not only giving the benefit of armor but also giving the advantage of DS. It's a strategy I may actually try to see how it works.

Quickjager wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Quickjager wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?

Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.

But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"

Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.

Very true, too bad we can't assault out of it on T1 because of the Scout rule, I guess we could stick a... purifier squad in it, shunt two DK up with them and on T2 deepstrike in the Termies or a Scion squad full of meltaguns.

Either way they're not assault vehicles or open-topped, so...

Envihon wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.

5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.

 Envihon wrote:
I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.

I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.

 Envihon wrote:
So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?

See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.

 Envihon wrote:
For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas

I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?

I started playing at the end of 5th. I was originally going to play Daemonhunters until my friend told me to wait until the GK codex dropped since my original interest was in the Grey Knights themselves in the Daemonhunters. I only first picked up the Eldar in 6th though when I was getting bored of doing the same thing over and over so I took up the Eldar since they were the original army that got me interested in Warhammer 40k.

And the 5 man comment can now be redacted after I learned that with combat squading you can use the psybacks for only 5 of the GKSS and DS the rest in, not only giving the benefit of armor but also giving the advantage of DS. It's a strategy I may actually try to see how it works.

Which actually comes first? Declaring Combat Squad or declaring how it's being deployed?

You have to declare which units are combat squading before you deploy your forces. 7th puts it out there as plain as day in the Preparing for Battle Section of deployment. It actually surprised me because it allows for something like only half showing up in a DT while the others DS but really, the only one who can take advantage of it is GKs as far as that is concerned. It also makes double assaults out of a LR or Storm Raven.

Super Newb wrote:

Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.

This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.

Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.

Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'

There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.

Sigh. Ok, couple of things.

First. My logic was clear...with the Crusader, I WILL get to roll a saving roll for the first wound - probability 100%. Without, probability is 0% (excluding cover). I have a 66% chance of surviving the first wound - you have 0%. I have a 66% chance of surviving EACH following wound. Yours - 0%.

Second. You didn't demonstrate that the Crusader wasn't 4 times as durable as an acolyte. In order to do that, you would have had to show the probability that the crusader would survive 4 wounds, (preferably with standard deviations). If you had done that, you would have found that the probability is NOT ZERO, it's around 20%. (2/3*2/3*2/3*2/3)

If you are going to throw mathhammer around, please, try and use it semi properly.

I think what you were trying to say is that IN YOUR OPINION and ASSUMING COVER, you don't think that the Crusader is a worthwhile addition. For you, the opportunity of rolling the dice to make a save is not worth the additional points. Fine.

IN MY OPINION and ASSUMING NO COVER, the crusader is worth it because I at least get to roll to save my objective secured troop unit that is currently contesting the objective and stopping the opponent winning by 1 point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic though, what do people think about StormRavens vs Dreadknights? or LR for that matter.

A fully decked out SR is about 255 points (with psybolts, TL AC, TL MM and sponsons). A DK is 260 pts with Heavy incinerator, Sword and Teleporter. LRC is 255 stock iirc.

If you already had one DK in your list and the choice of either a SR or LR, which would people take?

MarkCron wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.

This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.

Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.

Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'

There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic though, what do people think about StormRavens vs Dreadknights? or LR for that matter.

A fully decked out SR is about 255 points (with psybolts, TL AC, TL MM and sponsons). A DK is 260 pts with Heavy incinerator, Sword and Teleporter. LRC is 255 stock iirc.

If you already had one DK in your list and the choice of either a SR or LR, which would people take?

It depends really, if you are running a shunting alpha strike list, a second DK is essential. I know because I have been running that with only one DK and the DK gets shot up a lot. Having a second makes them sweat a little more, and is more target saturation because they may take down one DK but there is still a second one stomping around in their backyard flaming with a torrent str 6 flamer and their CC is well enough to take care of any problem vehicles. In a non-shunting alpha strike list with one DK, I would prefer the Storm Raven just for air support in case of flyers and then it still provides the function of a LR. Also, GKs don't get a lot of skyfire options outside of a Aegis Defense Line and the Storm Raven so since the Storm Raven is essentially a flying LR with Armor 12, the Storm Raven brings more to the table for it's point cost.

If you already have one DK in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Stormraven in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Land Raider in your army army, you should take another.

You have a higher survivability of your Big Box units when you double-down on them, rather than mixing a matching. You take a DK and a SR? DK is dead before SR arrives. You take a LR and a DK? The closer one will get focused down. You take two LRs? Both LRs have four times the survivability due to the need to either ignore one to kill the other, or split resources to deal with both. Same is true with 2 DKs or 2 SRs (if both are on the table at the same time). Doubling a Big Box unit not only double its output, it squares it's survivability.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you already have one DK in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Stormraven in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Land Raider in your army army, you should take another.

You have a higher survivability of your Big Box units when you double-down on them, rather than mixing a matching. You take a DK and a SR? DK is dead before SR arrives. You take a LR and a DK? The closer one will get focused down. You take two LRs? Both LRs have four times the survivability due to the need to either ignore one to kill the other, or split resources to deal with both. Same is true with 2 DKs or 2 SRs (if both are on the table at the same time). Doubling a Big Box unit not only double its output, it squares it's survivability.

SJ

Damn, I was afraid someone was going to say that. Makes sense.

I set my list up so I have waves of attacks - T1, DK and interceptors, T2 Purifiers, T3, Raven. My hope is that this, combined with Maelstrom missions, means that I'm mitigating the effect that you describe. Course, it is probably equally valid to argue that my plan is just serving up thirds of my army in pieces.

Practically, the problem is that I only have one of SR/LR but I do have 3 DK.

The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.

Do most people take Greatswords with their shunting DKs these days?

I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....

I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.

 Leth wrote:
I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....

I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.

That's what I thought. I run 2x DK+Tele+Heavy Incinerator... And these are huge points sinks.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....

I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.

That's what I thought. I run 2x DK+Tele+Heavy Incinerator... And these are huge points sinks.

Not really; 'points sink' generally implies that they don't make those points back.

If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?

The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.

Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?

Belac Ynnead wrote:
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?

The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.

Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?

I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.

Ha, I've actually stumbled onto that solution myself. Holy crap though, the Knight AND two DKs? I run one Knight and no DK's and I already feel like I have no points left for regular grey knights.

The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.

Yeah, I think you're on the right track with the anti-air advantage of the SR. Plus, they don't compete for HS slots with the DK.

The only real anti-air option not mentioned yet is the Psyfleman Dread: Dual TL Autocannon with Psybolts. About the same output as Prescienced Psycannons, but instead of rending you get +1S.

Also don't forget if you plan on firing Psycannons at flyers you should fire them at Heavy4; you're going to be snapfiring anyway, why not move 6" while you're at it.

Zimko wrote:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?

The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.

Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?

I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.

Yup. I run this. Major threat saturation.

I think one storm raven is enough, if you have enough threats on the table, it can reliably survive most interceptor fire. I shifted mine to Lascannon multi-melta and I really like the concentrated firepower(if I could actually hit that is another story......). I think the bolter sponson variant has some merit, but its tough when for the number of points required I could almost get a henchmen squad in a razorback that are both OS.

I throw a disposable OS unit in it and throw it on my skyshield. Skyshield brings so much to the army its ridiculous. Starting a raven on the table, 4+ invul(that combines with sanctuary I might add).

Remember that ADLs with Aegis Guns are going to be far less common now, with the change in Interceptor+Skyfire rule now being that it can only snapshot ground targets. How many armies will take a 100-ish point fortification in the in-case they face off against a flyer (really, there are only ~4 armies with flyers that you would see in a competitive setting: Vendettas, Storm Ravens, Doom/Night Scythe, Heldrake)

 Enigwolf wrote:

Zimko wrote:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?

The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.

Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?

I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.

Yup. I run this. Major threat saturation.

I have been thinking of running a Knight Errant for a long time because of the lack of anti-armor the GKs bring. I have been going back and forth about whether I want it to be an Errant or a Paladin. Two shots with a large blast STR 8 AP 3 weapon is pretty devastating even with the less punch to a vehicle. It seems pretty common for GK players to go with the Errant though. I just want something that I could take with my Imperial Fists though and I have plenty of anti-armor with the Devastator Centurions with TL Lascannon and Missile Launcher but if everyone is going armor, it might not be a bad thing. So Errant is pretty much the way to go?

Also, I do run my GK with Imperial Fist allies and it works awesome. I have a Tactical Squad with a melta and combi-melta in a Drop Pod that helps with my Alpha Strike and then an Imperial Fist Librarian sits back to support the Devastator Centurion squad in the back. It works quite wonderfully with GK and SM complimenting each other well. I have also ran Eldar in 6th with them and that definitely was useful especially in an Alpha Strike army and since they stayed Allies of Convenience, I suspect that hasn't changed. I haven't tried the Eldar with my GK in 7th quite yet but when I did in 6th, it was 2 Jetbike squads with one of them having a Farseer on a Jetbike attached to it and then a Wave Serpent with Fire Dragons in it. That also worked wonderfully especially with anti-armor, capturing objectives as well as killing infantry.

MarkCron wrote:

First. My logic was clear...with the Crusader, I WILL get to roll a saving roll for the first wound - probability 100%. Without, probability is 0% (excluding cover). I have a 66% chance of surviving the first wound - you have 0%. I have a 66% chance of surviving EACH following wound. Yours - 0%.

Second. You didn't demonstrate that the Crusader wasn't 4 times as durable as an acolyte. In order to do that, you would have had to show the probability that the crusader would survive 4 wounds, (preferably with standard deviations). If you had done that, you would have found that the probability is NOT ZERO, it's around 20%. (2/3*2/3*2/3*2/3)

If you are going to throw mathhammer around, please, try and use it semi properly.

I think what you were trying to say is that IN YOUR OPINION and ASSUMING COVER, you don't think that the Crusader is a worthwhile addition. For you, the opportunity of rolling the dice to make a save is not worth the additional points. Fine.

IN MY OPINION and ASSUMING NO COVER, the crusader is worth it because I at least get to roll to save my objective secured troop unit that is currently contesting the objective and stopping the opponent winning by 1 point.

Dude! What is with you man? You’ve got three main problems:

1) Your attitude - you have the AUDACITY to say I need to use math hammer ‘properly’ (as if I didn’t), when you EMBARRASSINGLY trotted out the hopelessly vague and totally useless “sometimes it works!” defense earlier? You said absolutely NOTHING about numbers, or even rough probabilities earlier. I point this out and you get an attitude about it (instead of apologizing). That is WEAK SAUCE.
2) Problem 2. The fact that your “ideal” squad idea is a points wasting bad plan, which no competitive player would agree with, nor would people like me who are semi-competitive at best, and
3) The fact that your points wasting squad, is not even an ideal squad for the number of points you spend on it. Most blatantly in that you think a Crusader is a good idea rather than a bunch of bare acolytes for the same points.

Now, 1 doesn’t really concern me much, though I had to point out your bad attitude. 2 is where your argument completely and utterly falls apart. 2 is what I have not touched on much because well, you seem obsessed with defending your crusader idea which is 3). But even in this thread no one is agreeing with you on 2. Your idea is just not points efficient. It is wasteful. The tiny increase in survivability does not warrant the increase in points. Ditto for the **tiny** increase in offensive shooting capability.

Now onto 3. That at the points spent (note we shouldn’t be spending this much, but for 3 let’s assume you have to spend it) your “ideal” squad still falls short. A Crusader is only three times as durable as an acolyte (out in the open, with no cover, with AP5 weapons or better), but get this, it is almost 4 times as expensive. 3 times as durable, almost 4 times as expensive. That’s not a good deal and guess what that’s the BEST case scenario. If you have AP – weapons, or cover is involved the Crusader comes out even worse. So IF you wanted to waste points on buffing a little razorback squad (which remember from #2 is a terrible idea), if you wanted to do this wasteful-ness, then a Crusader is STILL not ideal. Ok?

But really, 3 here is moot because you shouldn’t be spending that many points on the squad in the first place. In conclusion, you are spending too much on the squad, which you shouldn’t be, and you aren’t even spending them in the least bad way.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider ...

Not saying this is ideal lol because it isn't, but there's always henchmen. 3 MM Servitors in a chimera for example. Obviously you'd need an inquisitor to ride along but the 3 MM guys are 30 points total so that's nice at least. And then of course 2-3 warrior acolytes with melta guns I'm either a rhino or chimera (or razorback if you want them to jump out suicide style).

For heavy mech lists though allying in some drop pod marines would get the vehicle busting weapons in the right place more quickly though at greater points cost...

Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.

Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.

 Leth wrote:
Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.

Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.

How bout DCAs, psyker, maybe additional char in stormraven or LR?

Or a dedicated meltasquad for tank-hunting? Or are those points better spent on allies with melta?

Belac Ynnead wrote:
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?

The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.

Realistically most answers to Land Raiders in the game are turn 2 solutions at best. Only Wraithknights and Drop Pods are likely to have a real shot in turn 1.

kooshlord wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.

Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.

How bout DCAs, psyker, maybe additional char in stormraven or LR?

Or a dedicated meltasquad for tank-hunting? Or are those points better spent on allies with melta?

O sure, I got a squad in the works that is like

4-5 DCA, 3-4 Crusaders, and a psyker in a storm raven. Problem is that I find the Henchmen squad from Inquisition is so much better(see priests) but I cant get any.

So I am thinking of trying the following unit in a Storm Raven - 3 crusader, 6, deathcult, 1 psyker and some character depending on powers(or no character at all). Should be able to blender anything not T6+ or Armor 2+, I have enough answers for armor 2+ that I am not too worried.

Response to SuperNewb spoilered so the thread doesn't get off track.

Leth wrote:I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....

I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.

So, presumably you have a couple of DK in the list then? I'm curious as to how you use these, without a ranged weapon don't you eat a lot of shooting in the turn you shunt? I assume your shunt is placed so that nothing really nasty can assault you?

Also, re your other comment on the Skyshield if you start the Raven on the Skyshield, can you hover and something assault out of it T1?

SkrawnyNob wrote:

The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.

Yeah, I think you're on the right track with the anti-air advantage of the SR. Plus, they don't compete for HS slots with the DK.

The only real anti-air option not mentioned yet is the Psyfleman Dread: Dual TL Autocannon with Psybolts. About the same output as Prescienced Psycannons, but instead of rending you get +1S.

Also don't forget if you plan on firing Psycannons at flyers you should fire them at Heavy4; you're going to be snapfiring anyway, why not move 6" while you're at it.

Good thoughts. I stopped using psyflemen in 6e because they died really fast, might have to reconsider.

Its really inconvenient that Psykers can't cast blessings while embarked. Otherwise prescienced psycannons would be the way to go i reckon.

Separate question - The interaction between the Grand Strategy and Combat Squads is a little unclear. Per combat squads you have to decide to do that before warlord traits are decided. Grand Strategy kicks in "At the start of the game, before forces are deployed". I think this combination means I can use Grand Strategy to make a unit of purifiers scoring, then combat squad them. Comments? Also, if I make the Purifier scoring, does their DT get OS? I think the answer is no because GS can't be applied to vehicle models, but not sure.

I am actually using grey knights as my allied right now, but back in the day(5th) I used to run a Mordrak Bomb with two shunting Dreadknights and a unit of interceptors. All of these would be in their deployment turn one, and they had 1 turn to deal with it before I was deleting units.

Also yes you can assault out of the storm raven turn one, however unless they advance it is not possible to be in assault range.

PSyfulman are crazy good in 7th. What killed them was not the 6th edition rules, but rather the lack of transports on the table. With those making a return I think they will do quite well. I would be running them myself if I had the autocannons.

Personally right now I am running my dreadknight by itself as a dedicated CC defense unit as well as objective/relic grabber. As such it allows me to save the shunt for later in the game. If you give it objective secured and keep that shunt in your back pocket it forces your opponent to limit his moves, especially when going second. I just added a henchmen and a unit of crusaders and DCAs to go in the storm raven as a second counter assault unit.

On a side note one thing that someone taught me a little bit ago is that "The later in the game it gets, the more durable your units will be"

What that means is that as the game progresses your opponent is going to have less and less that can kill any particular unit. So instead of shunting forward on that first turn where you are basically giving them 1-2 targets for all their short to mid range weaponary(such as bolters, plasmaguns, meltas, etc), make them choose with their long range stuff while you are picking away at their army. Then once the third turn comes around rush with everything while their ability to kill stuff is depleted. If you shunt forward their entire squad gets to fire, if you sit back only the long range gets to fire. Give them the minimum returns while still maintaining a threat radius.