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Has anyone else noticed that the new FAQ for Grey Knights (lining up with the release of 7th edition) no longer states that it can make 4 S10 attacks? Does that seriously mean the Greatsword keeps him swinging at S6??? (Sure you can hammerhand up to S8 which isn't bad, but still...it's no Knight killer)

Can anyone else find if the Greatsword is still S10?

xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that the new FAQ for Grey Knights (lining up with the release of 7th edition) no longer states that it can make 4 S10 attacks? Does that seriously mean the Greatsword keeps him swinging at S6??? (Sure you can hammerhand up to S8 which isn't bad, but still...it's no Knight killer)

Can anyone else find if the Greatsword is still S10?

Looks like it is back to

4 S10 with dual Doomfists, or

or

3 S6 Rerollable attacks with the option for 3 S10 attacks.

The Greatsword is still a net Gain in hits and wounds against most targets, but does have its limitations. We may see an FAQ or further errata on this one. Meanwhile, I'll probably just roll dual fists.

Is this a case of the FAQ being actually changed, or simply omitted? Because as it was simply a clarification, not an Errata, I'd argue it always 'worked' that way, the FAQ just proved it.

So as far as I'm concerned, it still works at S10.

Yeah it's really weird, because looking at the 5th edition codex, there's no stat line for that weapon at all in there... and the FAQ also makes no mention of the Greatsword. There is an explicit section on the hammer, being S x2, AP2, Concusive, etc. but just nothing on the sword.

Since the codex doesn't mention a different profile for the weapon, I'd imagine when people hit at S10, they're using the fist, but treating the sword as "wargear", thus getting the buffs? How has that ever been interpreted that way lol! seems totally NOT intended to work that way...

FYI the FAQ used to make some clarification to this in the form of a Q & A... something like this:

Q: Does ...equipped w/Nemesis Greatsword, get 4 attacks at S10?
A: Yes

remember, the old answer was a FAQ an answer to questions, not an errata(rules change).

that particular question has had 0 rules changes, so the answer is still the same.

a model ARMED with the greatsword still benifits from it, even while not making attacks with it.

its still a weapon, so is the doom fist, 2 weapons = +1 attack.

the knight can choose to attack with his remaining doomfist, gaining str 10, and since he is also armed with the sword he gains its benifits despite not using it to attack.

 easysauce wrote:
the knight can choose to attack with his remaining doomfist, gaining str 10, and since he is also armed with the sword he gains its benifits despite not using it to attack.

I think this may be correct, since the Greatsword does not have a weapon profile. HOWEVER, since the DKnight does not have two weapons, he only gets 3A when he takes a sword. Not quite as good as 6e, but still pretty good.
He does not have two weapons because, as I just stated, the sword doesn't have a profile. It's not a weapon.
If it WERE a weapon, then you could either be S6 re-rolling 4A, or S10 4A, but not both. Since it's not a weapon, we get S10 re-rolling 3A.

Nope. The great-sword has a profile in addition to it's special rules. it is an unusual force weapon with the daemonbane special rule, which in addition grants it's wielder the ability to re-roll failed hits, wounds, and penetration rolls exactly as it has always done.

The FAQ from 6th edition was a clarification of how it works, not errata changing anything about it. (one which It apparently needs again given how there appear to be plenty who would dispute that fact)

A weapon profile includes Range, Strength, AP, and Special Rules. The Greatsword does not have any of these things listed. It does have a few effects associated with it, much like a PFG has, or a Res Orb, or any other piece of equipment. These effects include Daemonbane and re-rolls.
Compare this to a CCW.
Range: -
Strength: User
AP: -
Special Rules: Melee

It's definitely not a weapon, it's a piece of equipment. If it is a weapon, please explain how you are combining the special rules from two separate weapons in one attack. Trying to do that is CLEARLY against the rules.

Edit: I don't understand why people keep referring to the 6e GK FAQ. It has no bearing at all on any discussion of the rules. It's gone and deleted. If GW wants to reinstate some of those rulings later, they may do so, but currently, the old FAQ affects nothing in the game. Appealing to it is useless.

The Greatsword does not count as a weapon, and unfortunately is worded to replace one of the doomfists so it looses one attack, unless we see an errata or FAQ.

Codex Grey Knights says it is a Nemesis Force Weapon and follows the rules for force weapons.

Elric - the codex explicitly states it is a nemesis force weapon, which is an unusual force weapon. As such it HAS a profile, and you gain an additional attack.

Furthermore it has rules that apply to the bearer of the greats word. These do not require you to be using this, so more than one weapon does not apply.

 Ghaz wrote:
Codex Grey Knights says it is a Nemesis Force Weapon and follows the rules for force weapons.

If this is the case, then Neorealist, easysauce, and Paradigm are really ignoring some key rules about combining two weapons' special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
bearer of the greats word.

Is "bearer" exact language? Because if it is, then I'll have to re-read my codex, and start paying for Greatswords again!

also, the GK definitely ARE the bearers of the Great's Word: the Word of the Emprah.

The additional rules provided by the Greatsword (rerolling failed To Hit, To Wound and armour penetration rolls) only require the model to have the weapon and not necessarily be using it.

Elric - as above. The rule in the codex does not place any usage requirements, such as stating wielder, it comes from just having the sword

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Codex Grey Knights says it is a Nemesis Force Weapon and follows the rules for force weapons.

If this is the case, then Neorealist, easysauce, and Paradigm are really ignoring some key rules about combining two weapons' special rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
bearer of the greats word.

Is "bearer" exact language? Because if it is, then I'll have to re-read my codex, and start paying for Greatswords again!

also, the GK definitely ARE the bearers of the Great's Word: the Word of the Emprah.

again, to people questioning the FACT that a nem doom sword is a weapon,

it is in fact, listed in the GK codex as a nemisis force weapon, pg 54 gk dex

in the GK faq, you will see that all nemesis force weapons on pg 54, are treated as *drum roll* usual force weapons which have a profile (str user, ap3, + special rules in the specific entry)


its special rules, very much state the model gains them regardless of if its striking with the sword.


please at least read the rules before questioning easily answered questions like this... or dont get so worked up that you miss these things

Relevant rules for a more accurate discussion:

GK codex

Nemesis Force Weapons (p.54)
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
...
Further Abilities: The various types of Nemesis force weapon have one or more other abilities, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane abilities given above.

Nemesis Doomfist (p.54)
A Nemesis Doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons

Nemesis Greatsword (p.54)
A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound, and armour penetration rolls in close combat. (I checked that this is word for word. It only says "with" not "attacks with" or "bearing" etc.)

7th Edition Rulebook

Walkers and Assaults (p.91)
If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack.

Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (p.178)
Range -, Sx2, AP2, Melee

The interaction between all of these rules leads me to believe that the Dreadknight does indeed get 4 attacks (3 base +1 for having an additional melee weapon), at S10 (swinging with the Doomfist) and all attacks benefit from the Nemesis Greatsword special ability.

Do people interpret it differently?

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
Relevant rules for a more accurate discussion:

GK codex

Nemesis Force Weapons (p.54)
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
...
Further Abilities: The various types of Nemesis force weapon have one or more other abilities, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane abilities given above.

Nemesis Doomfist (p.54)
A Nemesis Doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons

Nemesis Greatsword (p.54)
A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound, and armour penetration rolls in close combat. (I checked that this is word for word. It only says "with" not "attacks with" or "bearing" etc.)

7th Edition Rulebook

Walkers and Assaults (p.91)
If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack.

Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (p.178)
Range -, Sx2, AP2, Melee

The interaction between all of these rules leads me to believe that the Dreadknight does indeed get 4 attacks (3 base +1 for having an additional melee weapon), at S10 (swinging with the Doomfist) and all attacks benefit from the Nemesis Greatsword special ability.

Do people interpret it differently?

DoW

Nope, thats how I interpreted it as well

 DogOfWar wrote:
Relevant rules for a more accurate discussion:

GK codex

Nemesis Force Weapons (p.54)
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
...
Further Abilities: The various types of Nemesis force weapon have one or more other abilities, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane abilities given above.

Nemesis Doomfist (p.54)
A Nemesis Doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons

Nemesis Greatsword (p.54)
A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound, and armour penetration rolls in close combat. (I checked that this is word for word. It only says "with" not "attacks with" or "bearing" etc.)

7th Edition Rulebook

Walkers and Assaults (p.91)
If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack.

Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (p.178)
Range -, Sx2, AP2, Melee

The interaction between all of these rules leads me to believe that the Dreadknight does indeed get 4 attacks (3 base +1 for having an additional melee weapon), at S10 (swinging with the Doomfist) and all attacks benefit from the Nemesis Greatsword special ability.

Do people interpret it differently?

DoW

I do. But only in part. The Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature, not a Walker.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Relevant rules for a more accurate discussion:

GK codex

Nemesis Force Weapons (p.54)
All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
...
Further Abilities: The various types of Nemesis force weapon have one or more other abilities, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane abilities given above.

Nemesis Doomfist (p.54)
A Nemesis Doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons

Nemesis Greatsword (p.54)
A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound, and armour penetration rolls in close combat. (I checked that this is word for word. It only says "with" not "attacks with" or "bearing" etc.)

7th Edition Rulebook

Walkers and Assaults (p.91)
If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus attack.

Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (p.178)
Range -, Sx2, AP2, Melee

The interaction between all of these rules leads me to believe that the Dreadknight does indeed get 4 attacks (3 base +1 for having an additional melee weapon), at S10 (swinging with the Doomfist) and all attacks benefit from the Nemesis Greatsword special ability.

Do people interpret it differently?

DoW

Yes. From the quotes Nemesis Force Weapons have one or more extra abilites, and for the Great Sword that is a collection of Re-rolls. So the Great-sword is a Melee weapon with a special ability.

From the main rulebook, "More than One Weapon" (ebook, so no page number), important part bolded.
"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

If you have two weapons (you do), you must choose one to attack with. You can not use the "abilities" of multiple close combat weapons. The re-rolls are an ability of the Great-sword, so to benefit from them the Dreadknight must choose to use it's and only it's abilities.

The only way you could then get to S10 and re-rolls is to decide that a weapons profile does not count as one of it's "abilities", which then causes all sorts of other problems as it would allow the mixing and matching of profiles.

Also, any argument that "It isn't an errata, just an interpretation of the rules" ignores GW's long and storied history of changing the rules in their FAQs outside the Errata section. For example (in 6th edition) granting Skyfire to FMCs in the same manner as Fliers when the rulebook had absolutely no mention of FMCs having access to Skyfire in any way, shape, or form.

It's worth pointing out that the other Nemesis Force Weapons specifically refer to the "wielder" gaining their various bonuses. Only the greatsword says "bearer" instead.

It's also worth pointing out that as it is literally worded it works regardless of it being used in combat or not. At the risk of sounding redundant? The wording of the weapon itself states this.

Of course the only reason we know this indisputably is because it was clarified to work that way previously and nothing substantive has changed in either the wording on the weapon nor on how multiple weapons work within the context of the game as it stands.

I can only presume that anyone indicating that it does not count as a weapon is unfamiliar with the codex and should probably correct that before responding further.

Apart from that, here is how it has worked since 5th edition: The Dreadknight never needs to attack with the greatsword to benefit from it's ability. It is uniquely worded such that merely bearing the weapon (and punching with it's doomfist) is still sufficient to grant re-rolls. And no, it is unique in this, no other ability is phrased that way.

Sometimes I like to ignore the fact that questions have previously been answered definitively by GW and substitute my own "creative thinking" to benefit myself too .

Seriously? Nothing changed in the wording of the codex. The FAQ answer was a clarification, not errata. S10, 4 attacks, rerolls. Simple as that. Arguing that you don't get the explicit benefit from wargear is willful ignorance at best. If someone ever claimed that I couldn't use my lash whip and bonesword combo because "you have to choose one weapon bro", I would slap him full in the face.

Also, for those interested in knowing, I don't even own a dreadknight model, and probably will never buy one.

 Happyjew wrote:


I do. But only in part. The Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature, not a Walker.

Ah quite right. My apologies. I bit off on the "dreadnought close combat weapon" rules and got lost. Thank you for the correction.

Either way, I think this has been fairly well answered. I have essentially the same view as Fachxphyre: nothing actually changed, rules-wise, so why should the DK function any differently than it did in 6th?

DoW

Well this is my interpretation:

The nemisis greatsword is now an unusual force weapon

the NGS does not say attacks made with it may reroll to-hit and such, just all attacks, unlike shred which states attacks with a weapon with the shred special rule (unless the model itself has shred)

so the way I read it, yes it is S: user AP: 3 (or 2 since smash) but its like the shield eternal, the space marine doesnt just have eternal warrior when making invulnerable saves, he has eternal warrior vs all wounds

EDIT: Sorry if that doesnt make sense, kinda tired and no time to reread it >.<

 BewareOfTom wrote:
Well this is my interpretation:

The nemisis greatsword is now an unusual force weapon

the NGS does not say attacks made with it may reroll to-hit and such, just all attacks, unlike shred which states attacks with a weapon with the shred special rule (unless the model itself has shred)

so the way I read it, yes it is S: user AP: 3 (or 2 since smash) but its like the shield eternal, the space marine doesnt just have eternal warrior when making invulnerable saves, he has eternal warrior vs all wounds

EDIT: Sorry if that doesnt make sense, kinda tired and no time to reread it >.<

it was ALWAYS an unusual force weapon... that did not change,

but yes you are correct the effect is always in effect,

since not a single rule changed between editions regarding this, and it was a FAQ, not an errata, and RAW still supports the +1 attack at str 10 with rerolls, it still stands as it was.

anyone arguing differently is just showing how poorly they read (or just dont read) the rules.

The RAW has never supported it, because there has always been an explicit prohibition on mixing and matching the rules from multiple weapons. Someone at GW wrote an FAQ that ignored both the rules that were written and all their previous precedent in ruling on the "only have to hold weapons" such as Scorpion Chainswords in the old Eldar codex, and thus they changed the rules for the Dreadknight. That the ruling was removed in the new FAQ is either an indication that they are returning to Dreadknights following the actual rules or that they put as much care into the new FAQs as they do into any writing they do (none.)

Chrysis wrote:
The RAW has never supported it, because there has always been an explicit prohibition on mixing and matching the rules from multiple weapons. Someone at GW wrote an FAQ that ignored both the rules that were written and all their previous precedent in ruling on the "only have to hold weapons" such as Scorpion Chainswords in the old Eldar codex, and thus they changed the rules for the Dreadknight. That the ruling was removed in the new FAQ is either an indication that they are returning to Dreadknights following the actual rules or that they put as much care into the new FAQs as they do into any writing they do (none.)

right right, you know the rules better then GW and everyone who actually reads this correctly...

no rules changed, the DK was not "breaking the rules" the FAQ was just clarifying it for people like you who cannot seem to read the rules in a correct fashion in this case

your insistance that GW is wrong, and that they, and everyone else cannot read, is just the polar opposite of correct.

you may as well start claiming the DK cant get str 10 anyways... cause it has dreadnought CCW's and only dreadnaughts can use them....

@Fachxphyre. If someone tried to also because I disagree with a rule they would quickly find there arm broken. Why not stay away from childish comments like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stupid auto text. Meant slap. Apologies

 easysauce wrote:
you may as well start claiming the DK cant get str 10 anyways... cause it has dreadnought CCW's and only dreadnaughts can use them....

Initially that's exactly how they ruled it. In the FAQ no less. But that was a couple of editions ago, when the Dreadnaught CCW Strength doubling was explicitly for Walkers.

Old FAQ question was as follows:

Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword
have 4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis
greatsword, can re- roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration
rolls?(p54)
A: Yes.

Literally -nothing- changed game-wise except that now a "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon" now has a weapon profile in the BRB.