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 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I was pretty sure that Custodes have spent their days since the Heresy lounging around in leather boots and thongs, taking turns oiling each others' abs and playing at war.

I'm also not sure where these statistics are coming from. Custodes wargear is described as "slightly superior" to that of Astartes, so I wouldn't say their armour "makes Terminator armour look like gak".

It also doesn't make a great deal of sense. A permanent gateway into the Materium is good enough, not to mention easy access to The Emperor and the Astronomican. Why don't the forces of Chaos devote their "undivided" (sorry) attention to this aim? Why isn't every Daemon, Daemon Prince, and Daemon Primarch in the Warp being pushed out by their dark masters to take the single most significant objective in the galaxy? Why is anyone bothering with such petty things as Black Crusades or eating a few souls when this lies in reach?

Last I read, the breach beneath the Golden Throne only opened once and briefly (when Magnus contacted The Emperor about Horus' betrayal), resulting in a daemonic incursion that took much time and many lives to quell.

Remember the Custodes armor from Dawn of War? The one with similar defense to terminator armor of the same level.
And Moloc's S:+2, AP:2 Power Spear without Unwiedly, with an inbuilt lascannon? That's a Custodes spear.
Or Argel Tal's custode weapons that cleaved through power armor, and broke other power weapons?
Their wargear is meant to be hilariously better than marines. You can afford to do that when there are 200 astartes per 1 Custodian.
The Breach never closed, as evidenced by the massive doors with fighting behind them. It's common knowledge the breach never closed. It's not that the Custodes are fighting off the incursion.
Because if they did the Imperium would just devote 1000s of times more forces, 1000s of Capital battleships, 10 of thousands of Imperator Titans, I think you get the idea. Making the whole thing pointless. Concentrating the Imperium would only make them harder to beat. They could actually fight off the chaos incursion relatively easily.
Trying to stretch them is actually a good idea.

Dawn of War gameplay is a terrible source for fluff. Furthermore, even by that same logic there are many items in Dawn of War that have obviously non-canon stats. You could have a Heavy Bolter that does twice as much damage because it was once wielded by a named character, for example. In other words, it's a special, named item in a game and is therefore seriously non-canon.

Moloc's Black Spear is "similar" to Custodes weapons, not the same. It is said to have once been used by Custodes. The Black Spear is a special Relic Blade with a one-shot lascannon in it. Guardian Spears are power halberds with bolters in them that may or may not be Relic Blades (power weapons with a strength boon).

The actions of a named character are a terrible and highly suspect source. However, all this suggests is that the Custodes weapon is a power weapon (cutting through power armour is something even the simplest power sword can do). Breaking other power weapons might be evidence for them being Relic Blades, but again, he's a named character and could break power weapons with his eyebrows if the author wanted.

Source for their wargear being "hilariously better"? They seem to just be like Grey Knights, in that they have wargear+1 (i.e. bolters stuck on to things).

Source for the Breach never closing?

So the Chaos Gods have planned to purposefully lose the fight (by throwing daemonic forces that can't win against the Custodes, which they've been supposedly doing for 10,000 years)... because if they try to win, then they'll lose? That makes no sense at all. For a start, a single massive effort could overwhelm the Custodes defense, kill the Emperor, and disable the Astronomican far quicker than the Imperium could reinforce them or even become aware of the situation. This is hugely beneficial to the forces of Chaos. At any rate, causing that number of Imperial force to descend on one location would also be beneficial to Chaos.

The Black spear is a modified Guardian Spear. The Standard Custodes weapon. The one they all have. If something says "it may be" in any work of fiction with no other things "it may be" then the writer intends it to be the thing "it may be"
Don't kid yourself. You look stupid doing that.
The forces of the Imperium outnumber those of Chaos like 10:1.
That's why they have to spread them.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus

"IT MAY BE"
Not "it is"

And, no they don't. You have literally no idea what the exact numbers of Imperium to Chaos forces are.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
"IT MAY BE"
Not "it is"

And, no they don't. You have literally no idea what the exact numbers of Imperium to Chaos forces are.

Yes that's clearly what's intended at that point.

It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

In a pitched battle lasting 10,000 years, I'd go with the Custodes, even though I think a battle lasting so long is totally ridiculous....You'd think someone would have found a way to end it in that amount of time. No where has there ever been seen Eldar that fight in pitched battles. Their weaponry, tactics, and expertise weren't accumulated with warfare in mind. Its always precision strikes, to complete an objective swiftly and get out before taking casualties. In a fight like the one that went on or is still going on under the Golden Throne, I think any Eldar would lose.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
"IT MAY BE"
Not "it is"

And, no they don't. You have literally no idea what the exact numbers of Imperium to Chaos forces are.

Yes that's clearly what's intended at that point.

No, it's not. It says "it may be", that means the writer intended that it may or may not be a Custodian Spear.

Custodes are warriors, not soldiers. All we real know about them, is that we don't know what they're totally capable of.
I'm fully of the belief that they could battle daemons for an eternity at the base of thr Golden Throne, they were bred to guard the Emperor. But I guess we'll just have to wait until the book comes out.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Custodes are warriors, not soldiers. All we real know about them, is that we don't know what they're totally capable of.
I'm fully of the belief that they could battle daemons for an eternity at the base of thr Golden Throne, they were bred to guard the Emperor. But I guess we'll just have to wait until the book comes out.

I do not believe this.
1. Custodes are as far and above Astartes as Astartes are above humanity, as close to Primarchs you can get without actually being one. Having said that, they are still living creatures and still need sleep, food and nourishment, and I'm sure that there is no "shifts" in a battle like this for them to rest and take a dump.
2. Custodes were bred by the Emperor using super secret genetic manipulation only he could do, same as Primarchs and Space Marines. With the Emperor incapacitated the Custodes have limited forces, whereas Daemons simply respawn to eternity. Coupled with 1, the Custodes would have been long worn down ages ago.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Custodes are warriors, not soldiers. All we real know about them, is that we don't know what they're totally capable of.
I'm fully of the belief that they could battle daemons for an eternity at the base of thr Golden Throne, they were bred to guard the Emperor. But I guess we'll just have to wait until the book comes out.

I do not believe this.
1. Custodes are as far and above Astartes as Astartes are above humanity, as close to Primarchs you can get without actually being one. Having said that, they are still living creatures and still need sleep, food and nourishment, and I'm sure that there is no "shifts" in a battle like this for them to rest and take a dump.
2. Custodes were bred by the Emperor using super secret genetic manipulation only he could do, same as Primarchs and Space Marines. With the Emperor incapacitated the Custodes have limited forces, whereas Daemons simply respawn to eternity. Coupled with 1, the Custodes would have been long worn down ages ago.

Source please?

The Custodes on jetbikes go down easily in Prospero Burns.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes#.U5RjnslwbqA


This says the Emperor developed the process, and like the Primarch and Astartes, I very much doubt he would share the information, especially as Custodes are Superior to Astartes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes#.U5RjnslwbqA


This says the Emperor developed the process, and like the Primarch and Astartes, I very much doubt he would share the information, especially as Custodes are Superior to Astartes.

As for "above Astartes" bit, that is a quote from Erebus in The First Heretic. He seeks to

So it's closer, the extent is not specified. They're not necessarily all-powerful.

Meh chaos will win in the end anyways. As long as there are humans aka spacemarines/custys and so on the eye of terror stays open. There is no end they keep being reborn and keep fighting, they have no lower number never get weaker just the same forever. While the humans must fight tau/orks/tyranids/ect, in the end chaos will win and kill all then tyranids don't have a chaos presence so they will kill each other eat each other and chaos will fade away. Then when the hive eats all other hives and there is nothing left to eat..... who knows what will happen.

p.s. Marines not expanding anymore tyranids took worlds from them so did the ork "tyranids worse tho" so they are already losing their numbers.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
So it's closer, the extent is not specified. They're not necessarily all-powerful.

I said nothing of the sort. I said they are as close to Primarchs without being Primarchs: both of them are simply 1 genetic "step" away from the Emperor, whereas Astartes are 2 steps.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
So it's closer, the extent is not specified. They're not necessarily all-powerful.

I said nothing of the sort. I said they are as close to Primarchs without being Primarchs: both of them are simply 1 genetic "step" away from the Emperor, whereas Astartes are 2 steps.

I know, I'm just saying the extent of the power that this gives them is not made clear.

Skipped over page 2 because I'd like to put the Solitaire debate to rest.

There is a story in the Daemons Codex Time Line that tells a story of a troupe of Harlequins and their Solitaire showing up on (I believe it was..) Craftworld Iyanden or perhaps Saim-Hann. Anyways, they show up and the Craftworlders inside say "Great! Let's celebrate!" So the Troupe and the Solitaire decide they're going to put on a show, particularly a dance about the Birth of Slaanesh and how the Eldar "escaped."

Unfortunately, in the middle of this performance with the Craftworlds Eldar's (pun intended) sitting front row to enjoy the show. Well in the midst of the spectacle, when the Solitaire is supposed to spin out from the Harlequin (playing as Slaanesh in this piece) grip, the Harlequin snatches her up, breaks her neck and then all goes to hell.

Why? Because the Trickster of Tzeentch had infiltrated the Troupe and taken the Harlequins body as a mask. On top of that, the sacrificed Solitaire's body then gives way to the Masque of Slaanesh and those who had been watching literally have Daemonettes clawing out of their mouths and leaving their body's empty husks.

While I believe the incursion was fought off, the Craftworld in question was gutted of its elites in the process.

So how is it that the Trickster and Masque, both of which are considered "Lesser Daemons" in the pantheon, we're able to not only massacre the Craftworlders they ambushed, but also the Solitaire and its entire Troupe?

Answer? Because Eldar are just as vulnerable to Chaos as anyone else, perhaps even more so since their Soul Stones shine so brightly in the warp. Proof? THEY DON'T HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. They are going extinct!

So citing a story where one such lucky Solitaire emberrassed a Keeper of Secrets? Not impressed because the Keeper obviously was new if the damn Trickster and Masque could lay waste to an entire Craftworld and its Elite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
The forces of the Imperium outnumber those of Chaos like 10:1.

Maybe if you were talking about all of the Imperium v. Chaos Space Marines, that would be applicable. But all of the Imperium v. all of Chaos? Don't make me laugh.

1: The Daemons are eternal, so their numbers never dwindle without the Warp fundamentally changing, and in fact, their numbers only expand. On top of that, there are 4 Chaos Gods who rule over the Immaterium, and when one wanes, the others wax stronger, thus ensuring the numbers of "Chaos" never truly dwindle.
2: You are forgetting about all of the hidden Chaos elements WITHIN the Imperium. So there is a chunk taken out of the Imperium itself, turned over to Chaos.
3: The Chaos Space Marines are still turning Space Marine Chapters over to Chaos. See: Huron Blackheart, the Redemptive Crusades, etc. for more on how this happens.
4: No one knows what the force disposition of Chaos ACTUALLY is, and even if we were to use the 13th Black Crusade as a benchmark, which seems to be enough to get this 10 - 1 Imperium to ruin a clean pair of Fruit of the Looms, you are still forgetting about the untamed/unknown elements within the warp itself.

Ex: You know that great picture of Imperial Fleets diving into the Warp and then the energies of the Warp taking on tentacle faced creatures with grasping arms and flicking tongues that are proportionately 500x larger than any Imperial ship? Yeah, there are THOSE THINGS in the Warp too. So even if 10 - 1 were accurate; What? Are we talking about 10 Guardsmen to 1 Force of Cosmic Nature? NO CONTEST.

5: There is also this problem of things like garbage, space hulks and other such things seeming to be able to repopulate themselves with little to no effort at all. It has been suggested in the Chaos Codexes that (for example) when a Space Hulk claimed by Nurgle ventures out into real space, it'll disgourge its contents onto unsuspecting worlds until all of its contents are depleted, then it seems to roll right back into the warp, fill up with fresh plague stuff (marines, cultists, flies, drones, etc.) and then goes back out to repeat the process. Why? Well it would seem pretty obvious that Nurgle isn't exactly wanting for forces. He's got all he could ever want or need as far as Real Space is concerned. Why doesn't he just step out himself? Well this is a problem with the fundamental laws of physics being exemplified in the 40k universe. Short answer: Not enough Chaos in Real Space to sustain such a direct incursion....yet. +__+

6 (and possibly final): Daemon Worlds and Ghoul Stars! Uncounted Numbers. Unknown Disposition. Aside from that, how many of these worlds and stars frequently vanish into and out of the Warp?

Which I think finally wraps this position up: We have NO IDEA what is in the Warp because the Warp keeps giving us these half-glimpses of what it is capable of. The Blade of Infinity is there one second, and then suddenly its' the Terminus Est. There is a Warp Star glowing menacingly in the distance, and suddenly it supernovas and mutates, consumes and destroys planets for light years and on going, whose populations are never discovered, the planets themselves are never appraised again, and in fact, much of what the Imperium fears from the Warp simply gets quarantined the way a child puts their hands over their eyes and ears and says "NOPE! NOT LOOKING!! NOT LISTENING!! NOPE NOPE NOPE! IT'S ALL BAD! DON'T NEED TO KNOW MORE THAN THAT!" and they go about setting up these limited sight blockades and not actually doing anything to ensure some form of counter attack to uncover force disposition and numbers.


Seriously, people need to start taking Chaos more seriously. As I've said before, there is a reason Chaos is called "The Great Enemy," and why the Tyranids...well, aren't. Even with Shadows on the Warp, which I think was put in just to make Chaos look like it had something to worry about. Same with the 'Crons.

Just some food for thought...

The Emperor obliterated Horus, soul and all.
Yes he is the Emperor, but this act at least indicates that there is a way to utterly destroy a spirit.

Everyone believes chaos will win in the end... I say, there might be a way to kill them utterly... Not saying it will happen, just saying there is a way.

Loppie wrote:
Just some food for thought...

The Emperor obliterated Horus, soul and all.
Yes he is the Emperor, but this act at least indicates that there is a way to utterly destroy a spirit.

Everyone believes chaos will win in the end... I say, there might be a way to kill them utterly... Not saying it will happen, just saying there is a way.

From what I remember he was actually pulled into 4 pieces by the Chaos Gods because they all wanted him.

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

There is said to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

Well that's great, but what about the answer to "Million CSM's? lolwut?"

And also, you're forgetting everything else I said and Deadshot emphasized.

The Imperium has NO IDEA what the Chaos disposition is, and they are AFRAID OF THAT. <--Get it? Afraid? Because for all they know, Chaos, seeing as how it reflect reality, could be a mirror image of the Imperium, and while the Imperium gets weaker (and it is getting weaker) Chaos continues to wax strong.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

There is said to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

1000 chapters of 1000 marines is a generalisation considering that the BT Chapter has about 4000 marines and some chapters only have a few dozen.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


So citing a story where one such lucky Solitaire emberrassed a Keeper of Secrets? Not impressed because the Keeper obviously was new if the damn Trickster and Masque could lay waste to an entire Craftworld and its Elite.

Hmm, you seem a bit misinformed about the Harlequins lore. Do you know how one becomes a Harlequin? How they free themselves form Slaanesh's grip? When an aspirant wants to be a Harlequin, he preforms 'The Ritual' (GW is imaginative) where a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh possesses the Eldar. The Eldar's place in the Harlequin troupe is determined by how well he deals with it, most fail the test and have to be put down, as only the Eldar who force the Greater Daemon out of themselves become Harlequins, but in doing so they have freed themselves from Slaanesh's grasp. A Solitaire on the other hand, they occur when the Ritual goes wrong, and instead of forcing the Daemon, it takes his soul. But unlike the other failed Aspirants who become possessed and must be put down, the Solitaire still forces the Daemon out of his own body, but he is now soulless, and he belongs to Slaanesh while being Marked by Cegorarch. This makes them dangerous indeed.

Also, your story sounds a lot more like a one-off then mine. What you are saying is that the Changeling, a being that has tricked GODS before, impersonates a Harlequin and kills the Solitaire mid performance, which then allows the Masque to manifest. They then slaughter the Craftworld Elite watching the performance. Do you go to the theater often? How often do you come equipped with your finest weaponry and armour? Of course the Elite got killed, the fething Masque of Slaanesh crashed their dinner party and brought her friends! That has nothing to do with how effective the Solitaire is though, who was killed off before anything even started.

On the other hand Solitaires used to have rules, and they were NASTY! Easily enough to put them on even footing with a Greater Daemon. Go read The Dark Eldar Path books, Path of the Outcast and Masque the Vyle, then you can say you are the be all end all of Harlequin lore

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:


So citing a story where one such lucky Solitaire emberrassed a Keeper of Secrets? Not impressed because the Keeper obviously was new if the damn Trickster and Masque could lay waste to an entire Craftworld and its Elite.

Hmm, you seem a bit misinformed about the Harlequins lore. Do you know how one becomes a Harlequin? How they free themselves form Slaanesh's grip? When an aspirant wants to be a Harlequin, he preforms 'The Ritual' (GW is imaginative) where a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh possesses the Eldar. The Eldar's place in the Harlequin troupe is determined by how well he deals with it, most fail the test and have to be put down, as only the Eldar who force the Greater Daemon out of themselves become Harlequins, but in doing so they have freed themselves from Slaanesh's grasp. A Solitaire on the other hand, they occur when the Ritual goes wrong, and instead of forcing the Daemon, it takes his soul. But unlike the other failed Aspirants who become possessed and must be put down, the Solitaire still forces the Daemon out of his own body, but he is now soulless, and he belongs to Slaanesh while being Marked by Cegorarch. This makes them dangerous indeed.

Also, your story sounds a lot more like a one-off then mine. What you are saying is that the Changeling, a being that has tricked GODS before, impersonates a Harlequin and kills the Solitaire mid performance, which then allows the Masque to manifest. They then slaughter the Craftworld Elite watching the performance. Do you go to the theater often? How often do you come equipped with your finest weaponry and armour? Of course the Elite got killed, the fething Masque of Slaanesh crashed their dinner party and brought her friends! That has nothing to do with how effective the Solitaire is though, who was killed off before anything even started.

On the other hand Solitaires used to have rules, and they were NASTY! Easily enough to put them on even footing with a Greater Daemon. Go read The Dark Eldar Path books, Path of the Outcast and Masque the Vyle, then you can say you are the be all end all of Harlequin lore

Dunno if I ever said I was the end-all, be-all of Eldar lore (because I'm definitely not. 4-K-OS!!!) but that it is a little inconsistent that Eldar (who I believe are raised as warriors since the fall of their empire) couldn't reach for a pistol to put one in a Daemonettes face before being eaten alive. Aside from that though, my point was more along the lines of, "How could they have not known? Aren't these a very tight nit and rare group of highly skilled fighters? And isn't Slaanesh their mortal enemy?"

And about bringing weapons to dinner, that might apply in the normal universe, but this is Grimdark, where someone is just as likely to turn their arm into a sword as they are to pull a pistol out of their ass and start shooting.

I digress though, it just seemed wonky that the Eldar fell for that trick, seeing as they are supposed to be Tricksters themselves.

True enough about the Changeling though. He does fool the Gods as much as anyone else, so I'll call it a wash.

The Black spear is a modified Guardian Spear. The Standard Custodes weapon. The one they all have. If something says "it may be" in any work of fiction with no other things "it may be" then the writer intends it to be the thing "it may be"

This is the sum of all information relating to the Black Spear in the book in which it appears.

Imperial Armour 10 - Badab War Part 2, Page 177 wrote:The Black Spear; An ancient artefact steeped in blood and said to have once been used by the Adeptus Custodes, the Black Spear is a Relic Blade with houses a powerful single-shot laser weapon. Once per game it can be used to make a shooting attack with the following profile:

R12" Str8 AP2 Assault, One Use

How exactly does "said to have once been used" mean "they all have them"? How does "Relic Blade" mean "infinitely superior to Space Marine wargear" (Space Marines have Relic Blades too)? Where does it say that it's a modified Guardian Spear? A Guardian Spear is a power halberd with a incorporated bolter.

Don't kid yourself. You look stupid doing that.

You completely failed to address my point. Or do you seriously believe that "plot armour" does not exist? Marneus Calgar punched the Avatar of Khaine to death. This does not mean that all Space Marines are immune to molten metal, because that is seriously the logic you are trying to push.

The forces of the Imperium outnumber those of Chaos like 10:1.
That's why they have to spread them.

Again, you failed to address my point, and ignored critical questions you could not answer. Let's just say the breach has been open for 10,000 years. Your reasoning is that Chaos is deliberately failing to overwhelm the Custodes because they fear that sending in too many daemons will attract the full might of the Imperium to Terra. This makes absolutely no sense, because it would mean that Chaos is intentionally losing this fight. Furthermore, there is no way that significant reinforcement would be able to respond in time to stop them from achieving their objective - that is, killing The Emperor and destroying the Astronomican.

You're entirely missing the point. It's not about numbers - ignoring that Daemons cannot be measured in numbers - it's about force. The only question is "Can the forces of Chaos defeat the Custodes currently defending The Emperor?", to which the answer is unequivocally yes. I'm not talking about Chaos Space Marines, traitors, whatever - I'm talking about Daemons. The kind of Daemons that destroy worlds - Aetaos'rau'keres alone is known for it, and it is bound by all manner of restrictions and limitations by Tzeentch. So what happens when the Exalted Greater Daemons of all four Chaos Gods march through those gates? The kind that kill Titans with ease?

The point is that if the Dark Gods had such an easy backdoor into the life-support room of their number one enemy, there is absolutely no chance they would not push every scrap of power they could muster through it. This doesn't even have to be Daemons! Warp breaches cause all kinds of reality-warping nonsense, and a breach of this magnitude is definitely not an exception. It's not even about fighting the Daemons that come out. If the Breach was open, Terra would, at the very least, be full of completely insane people. At the most, the galaxy would have a second Eye of Terror. That is not a force that some fancy Space Marines with bolter-spears can fight against. Even your wildly inaccurate vision of Custodes, with lascannon-superblades, could not fight against that.

The other side to this is that even if you were right, and all the forces of the Imperium could just magically teleport to Terra to reinforce a war they don't even know is happening - that's a really, really good thing for Chaos. Suddenly millions of worlds are abandoned and defenceless, beset on all sides by the mutant, the alien, the heretic. Even if the Breach was shut, the Imperium would be ruined.

And yes, that is Magnus. What about him?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus wrote:As his disembodied spirit blazed through the Warp, he came across a Webway corridor that led to Terra. Unbeknownst to him, this particular corridor was constructed by humans, a part of the Emperor's secret Webway project. Magnus tried in vain to breach the wall of the corridor, but then an anonymous voice from within the Warp offered Magnus the extra power he needed, and the overconfident Magnus accepted without question. Magnus tore a breach in the wall and followed the corridor to Terra, bursting through the portal beneath the Golden Throne. The breach allowed daemons to invade the Webway and ruin the Emperor's project. Magnus was so shaken and horrified by his blunder that he could not find the will to deliver his warning, and instead retreated back to his physical body on Prospero.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Golden_Throne wrote:At the outset of the Horus Heresy, when Magnus the Red used his sorcerous powers to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery, he inadvertently created huge holes in the Emperor's psychic shield. Daemons poured into the human-built portion of the Webway and slaughtered thousands of Adeptus Mechanicus workers there. The Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence were left fighting a desperate battle to prevent the daemons from reaching the portal through into the Imperial Dungeon. Eventually the Imperial forces had to abandon the Webway and retreat back into the Imperial Palace. The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement.

The whole "The Emperor is holding the Warp breach under the Golden Throne shut" thing is such a important part of the background that I am amiss as to how you could think otherwise - the death of the Emperor bodes not only the loss of the Astronomican, but a potential daemonic incursion into realspace the likes of which have never been seen since the birth of Slaanesh. Reading your posts I gave you benefit of the doubt, thinking that there might have been a retcon in the 7th Edition BRB or something, as is often the case, and I wouldn't be surprised for GW to write such a stupid piece of fluff (these are the same people who decided the Land Speeder and Land Raider were so-named because their STCs were discovered by a guy whose name was Land - when I first read this in Wobbly Model Syndrome, I thought it was a joke. It is not.). I can find absolutely nothing to support your assertion that the Custodes have been fighting Daemons behind the Eternity Gate for 10,000 years.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

There is said to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

1000 chapters of 1000 marines is a generalisation considering that the BT Chapter has about 4000 marines and some chapters only have a few dozen.

Agreed, the actual number is skewed. But the official figure is what I said. Not saying if right or wrong, just answering your question of "Who said there were 1, 000, 000 space marines?" Games Workshop, Black Library and Forge World.

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

There is said to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

1000 chapters of 1000 marines is a generalisation considering that the BT Chapter has about 4000 marines and some chapters only have a few dozen.

Agreed, the actual number is skewed. But the official figure is what I said. Not saying if right or wrong, just answering your question of "Who said there were 1, 000, 000 space marines?" Games Workshop, Black Library and Forge World.

So the company states a number, logic states another but the company is right?
They can barely keep a hold of their own game.

The average count is 1000 Chapters of 1000 Marines. Yes, some Chapters are much larger, and others much smaller... it still comes out to that average, resulting in 1 million Imperial Space Marines in the galaxy, no matter how you arrive at the number.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 motyak wrote:
It's been a while since Primodial has gotten onto his Custodian horse. It's best to just say 'yep sure' and move on from the thread. He'll argue right up to the lock about what 'everyone knows' and how any disagreement with his points 'makes you look stupid'. Just let the thread die by not giving him someone to insult for disagreeing.

Quick!!!
We need three goats!!!
Or just one big one!!!
I haven't had a thread of mine locked in ages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheRedWingArmada.
Dude.
There are a million CSM, a million SM, and trillions of imperial Guard, millions of assassins, and hundreds of thousands of loyalist ships.
Chaos has far fewer numbers because deviation from the Imperial Cult is all said and done very uncommon.

Who said there are a million SM? There's most of the original Legions, the Black Legion (which is huge and has hundreds of thousands of recruits), regular warbands, Huron Blackheart's space buddies and then countless Cultists. You're forgetting that there are millions of worlds full of worshippers of Chaos in the Warp.

Plus Demons who can't die.

There is said to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

1000 chapters of 1000 marines is a generalisation considering that the BT Chapter has about 4000 marines and some chapters only have a few dozen.

Agreed, the actual number is skewed. But the official figure is what I said. Not saying if right or wrong, just answering your question of "Who said there were 1, 000, 000 space marines?" Games Workshop, Black Library and Forge World.

So the company states a number, logic states another but the company is right?
They can barely keep a hold of their own game.

Logic? What Psychic Discipline is that under?

If the company (who define what is canon) say 1 million, its 1 million. If they say Space Marines arn't really, and Ultramarines were originally the farts of bronies, that's how it is.

Maybe it's just a lie