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So they have updated Psychic Shriek in 7th by increasing its range to 18" but as far as I can see they have done nothing do clear up the old issues surrounding the Witchfires must roll to hit business. So the questions still remain over how many dice need to be rolled (if any), and whether a failed roll has any bearing on whether the power can still be resolved.

Is this still the case or have I missed something? If it hasn't been addressed it's pretty poor that they didn't take to opportunity of a new rulebook to do so. I'm sure they had more than a few e-mails on the subject. I suppose they solved the same problem with Puppet Master by removing the power.

If it's witchfire it rolls to hit.

If it hits it does the given number of wounds described in the rulebook.

That's how I play it and have since last edition when it was the main reason why weaken resolve/psychic shriek wasn't an autotake for IG.

rules wrote:a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is[sic] has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Couldn't be more clear.

Psychic Shriek is neither a Blast nor Template; it must roll to hit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Couldn't be more clear.

Well the number of threads this issue was discussed in in relation to the 6E rules suggests this isn't quite true.

For the avoidance of doubt however the point of my post wasn't to re-open a rules debate if nothing has changed from 6th as that discussion has been done to death. I just wanted to check whether there had been any relevant rule amendments I hadn't spotted.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rules wrote:a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is[sic] has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Couldn't be more clear.

Psychic Shriek is neither a Blast nor Template; it must roll to hit.

How many rolls do you make? Pages and para.
What ties a success to the rest of the shriek resolution?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Psychic Shriek is neither a Blast nor Template; it must roll to hit.

How many rolls do you make? Pages and para.
What ties a success to the rest of the shriek resolution?

I didn't claim that the rules nor I knew the answers to those questions. The rules are pretty clear that it must roll to hit though.

HIWPI is a single roll to hit with the models appropriate BS after psychic test, before effects, but I wouldn't say the RAW is clear on that aspect.

Do you play that a miss causes you to stop resolving the power, and is that rules based?

Why dont you just link the last thread rather than going on again Nos?

The only place your going to run into someone who says that a witchfire works even if you fail a roll to hit is here on dakka.

Casuals don't play it that way, and none of the bigger tournaments rule it like that either.

 BarBoBot wrote:
The only place your going to run into someone who says that a witchfire works even if you fail a roll to hit is here on dakka.

Casuals don't play it that way, and none of the bigger tournaments rule it like that either.

Psychic Shriek has no profile, so we do not know how many dice we roll to hit.

Not that hitting or missing does anything for Psychic shriek...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do you play that a miss causes you to stop resolving the power, and is that rules based?

Yes and not directly.

How to use Psychic Shriek according to RAW:
1. Declare you are manifesting Psychick Shriek with your psyker
2. Declare target
3. Make your psychic test
3a. If at least two 6s are rolled immediately resolve Perils on the psyker
4. Target unit may attempt to Deny the Witch
5. Provided you successfully made your psychic test and your opponent failed to Deny the Witch, roll 0d6 to hit
6. Scrutinise the table where the 0 dice landed
7. Resolve Psychic Shriek according to its entry

witchfires state you must roll to hit,

roll to hit, if you hit resolve the power.

some people like to pretend that rolling to hit does not matter, and they would be wrong, resolving a weapons effects on hit, using the weapons profile matters, just as resolving a witchfires profile is affected by the hit or miss.

to assume this roll to hit does not matter, or can be done on 0 dice, is to assume you can do that kind of stuff with shooting dice or CC dice.

some people are confused because it doesnt have a profile exactly like a weapon so are confused as to how many dice to roll.

thats because they are having trouble subbing in the rules/profile as written for this power, instead of a normal weapon profile, but the rules state that many witch fires have similar profiles to weapons, which means some will have totally different profiles.

thankfully, the rules tell us to roll to hit, and gives us a profile that tells us how to resolve that power once we have hit, as the power does in fact have a profile, just not one identical to normal weapons as there is no str or ap value.

once we have hit, and we know its one dice because we are told that in the case of multiple shots the profile will include a # greater then 1 after the weapon type (we have neither that # or a weapon type for this powers profile, pg 40) ,

since rolling 0 dice is not in fact rolling to hit, and we are not told to roll more then one, that leaves rolling a negative # of dice (impossible, and technically the same as rolling 0 dice) or rolling 1.

we resolve the powers rules according to its profile about causing wounds in the place of standard weapon profiles that compare str and T values, we roll 3d6 and compare to the LD ect as this witchfires specific profile's rules say.

TLDR
the answer is that yes, it rolls to hit, yes only once, if you hit then you resolve the power, if you miss you do not.

 easysauce wrote:
witchfires state you must roll to hit,

roll to hit, if you hit resolve the power.

Please quote a rule that states you must hit to resolve Psychic Shriek.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
witchfires state you must roll to hit,

roll to hit, if you hit resolve the power.

Please quote a rule that states you must hit to resolve Psychic Shriek.

pg 27 clearly states witchfires must roll to hit like shooting weapons and follow template blast shooting rules. Shooting rules state you only resolve the weapons profile into wounds on a sucessfull hit.

you must hit to resolve weapon profiles, even if they are special profiles with different rules in stead of STR and AP to resolve the wounds that hit would cause.

you have 0 RAW backing to resolve any shooting attack, regardless of how special its profile, without a hit first.

hits from weapons have profiles, as does this power. just because its an extra special fancy profile with different WOUND resolution rules, ap rules, does not ignore the requirement to hit.

quote the rule that states hits do not matter

you have also stated that rolling 0 dice counts as rolling to hit, which is just wrong, you obviously know the requirment to hit is written down,


you have no rules basis for resolving wounds from shooting without a hit.



in case you didnt notice, GW actually states now that not all witchfires will follow the standard range STR AP profile,

this one has a profile of range 18" str N/A ap N/A and its own rules for wounds and saves.

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

Find a rule that stops Psychic Shriek from resolving if the mandatory to-hit roll misses.

The intention here was probably to substitute the 3D6 roll as the to-hit roll, but GW's amazingly competent writers have failed to notice the discrepancy between the required roll to hit and Psychic Shriek's lack of instruction to roll to hit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
witchfires state you must roll to hit,

roll to hit, if you hit resolve the power.

Please quote a rule that states you must hit to resolve Psychic Shriek.

List a tourney bigger than 10 guys that rules it like that.

Casuals certainly don't play it like that.

That leaves rules lawyers and WAAC players.

Oh no, not again

you must roll to hit, but you didn't roll to hit, the game breaks and you might as well end the game and move on.

It's a shame with how they tried to clarify other issues they forgot the psychic ones.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
witchfires state you must roll to hit,

roll to hit, if you hit resolve the power.

Please quote a rule that states you must hit to resolve Psychic Shriek.

List a tourney bigger than 10 guys that rules it like that.

Casuals certainly don't play it like that.

That leaves rules lawyers and WAAC players.

That's an interesting false appeal to authority you've got there.
This is a rules as written argument, please take your "how I would play it" post elsewhere.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

Find a rule that stops Psychic Shriek from resolving if the mandatory to-hit roll misses.

The intention here was probably to substitute the 3D6 roll as the to-hit roll, but GW's amazingly competent writers have failed to notice the discrepancy between the required roll to hit and Psychic Shriek's lack of instruction to roll to hit.

so it says "roll to hit" in a bolters profile then too?

oh wait, no it doesnt, weapon profiles show you how WOUNDS are resolved, not hits.

we are told to roll to hit and work it out like weapons, to claim you can resolve a psychic SHOOTING attacks wounds according profile without a hit, breaks all the same rules as resolving a bolt guns wounds according to its profile without a hit.

you claim that "rolling 0 dice to hit counts as rolling to hit" showing you are either trolling, or will fully ignoring and making up rules.

"missing doesnt mean my bolter cannot wound you" is also how bolters work under your interpretation, as bolters follow the same to hit rules as witchfires.

roll to hit, on hit, resolve wounds according to profile.


page 26 also tells us that we are to "apply any TARGETING requirements other restrictions that apply for its type"

pg 27 also goes into specific types of witchfires and their specific "targeting restrictions" dealing with beams novas ect and their lack of targeting restriction to roll to hit.

check range, roll to hit target, being the specific restrictions on witchfires

Princeraven the OP said in his second post that this thread was not meant to be a rules debate... So why are you claiming otherwise?

 easysauce wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

Find a rule that stops Psychic Shriek from resolving if the mandatory to-hit roll misses.

The intention here was probably to substitute the 3D6 roll as the to-hit roll, but GW's amazingly competent writers have failed to notice the discrepancy between the required roll to hit and Psychic Shriek's lack of instruction to roll to hit.

so it says "roll to hit" in a bolters profile then too?

oh wait, no it doesnt, weapon profiles show you how WOUNDS are resolved, not hits.

A Bolter is a Rapid Fire weapon, Rapid Fire tells you how many rolls to hit you make.

we are told to roll to hit and work it out like weapons, to claim you can resolve a psychic SHOOTING attacks wounds according profile without a hit, breaks all the same rules as resolving a bolt guns wounds according to its profile without a hit.

you claim that "rolling 0 dice to hit counts as rolling to hit" showing you are either trolling, or will fully ignoring and making up rules.

Psychic Shriek does not tell you to roll any dice to hit, but a to-hit roll is required, therefore in order to follow both rules you must roll 0 dice to hit.

"missing doesnt mean my bolter cannot wound you" is also how bolters work under your interpretation, as bolters follow the same to hit rules as witchfires.

roll to hit, on hit, resolve wounds according to profile.

A shooting attack missing does indeed stop you from causing the wound according to the basic shooting rules, but the only things listed in the rulebook that can stop a psychic power from resolving are Denying the Witch and failing the psychic test.

page 26 also tells us that we are to "apply any TARGETING requirements other restrictions that apply for its type"

pg 27 also goes into specific types of witchfires and their specific "targeting restrictions" dealing with beams novas ect and their lack of targeting restriction to roll to hit.

check range, roll to hit target, being the specific restrictions on witchfires

Right, so the target has to be an unengaged enemy unit the psyker has line of sight to within 18".
What has that got to do with rolling to hit?

 BarBoBot wrote:
Princeraven the OP said in his second post that this thread was not meant to be a rules debate... So why are you claiming otherwise?

I must have been confused by the OP asking in the very first post the questions I am answering:
"So the questions still remain over how many dice need to be rolled (if any), and whether a failed roll has any bearing on whether the power can still be resolved. "

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

"Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

Find a rule that stops Psychic Shriek from resolving if the mandatory to-hit roll misses.

The intention here was probably to substitute the 3D6 roll as the to-hit roll, but GW's amazingly competent writers have failed to notice the discrepancy between the required roll to hit and Psychic Shriek's lack of instruction to roll to hit.

so it says "roll to hit" in a bolters profile then too?

oh wait, no it doesnt, weapon profiles show you how WOUNDS are resolved, not hits.

A Bolter is a Rapid Fire weapon, Rapid Fire tells you how many rolls to hit you make.

we are told to roll to hit and work it out like weapons, to claim you can resolve a psychic SHOOTING attacks wounds according profile without a hit, breaks all the same rules as resolving a bolt guns wounds according to its profile without a hit.

you claim that "rolling 0 dice to hit counts as rolling to hit" showing you are either trolling, or will fully ignoring and making up rules.

Psychic Shriek does not tell you to roll any dice to hit, but a to-hit roll is required, therefore in order to follow both rules you must roll 0 dice to hit.

"missing doesnt mean my bolter cannot wound you" is also how bolters work under your interpretation, as bolters follow the same to hit rules as witchfires.

roll to hit, on hit, resolve wounds according to profile.

A shooting attack missing does indeed stop you from causing the wound according to the basic shooting rules, but the only things listed in the rulebook that can stop a psychic power from resolving are Denying the Witch and failing the psychic test.

page 26 also tells us that we are to "apply any TARGETING requirements other restrictions that apply for its type"

pg 27 also goes into specific types of witchfires and their specific "targeting restrictions" dealing with beams novas ect and their lack of targeting restriction to roll to hit.

check range, roll to hit target, being the specific restrictions on witchfires

Right, so the target has to be an unengaged enemy unit the psyker has line of sight to within 18".
What has that got to do with rolling to hit?

 BarBoBot wrote:
Princeraven the OP said in his second post that this thread was not meant to be a rules debate... So why are you claiming otherwise?

I must have been confused by the OP asking in the very first post the questions I am answering:
"So the questions still remain over how many dice need to be rolled (if any), and whether a failed roll has any bearing on whether the power can still be resolved. "

Nice logic... but the shooting phase instructions tell you: "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a d6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once..."

Thus, rolling to hit HAS to involve at least 1d6, which hits according to your ballistic skill. Psychic shriek starts by telling us it is a witchfire with a range of 18". Thus we look up the rules for witchfire which confirm that you must roll to hit unless it is a blast or template. As Psychic shriek is not, we must roll to hit. Once you hit, the rest of the power can be resolved. If you don't hit, sucks to be you, you missed and did 3d6 - leadership to that shrub next to the guy you were shooting at.

Psychic Shriek does not fire any shots, it determines number of wounds inflicted through a different method, therefore to roll a d6 for each shot that is in range you must roll 0d6.

 easysauce wrote:
the answer is that yes, it rolls to hit, yes only once, if you hit then you resolve the power, if you miss you do not.

(Emphasis mine)

Where are you getting that from?

Why not roll 100 dice to hit?

Some rules to back up your argument would be great.

In absence of an actual die rolled on the table, have you Rolled To Hit? If a tree falls in a forest with no people...?

Claiming you automatically progress to the resolution of the power is something I'd like a page/reference on.

Aren't you just stuck on the requirement to ROLL something until you and your opponent agree how to solve this flaw in the rules?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Oh no, not again

you must roll to hit, but you didn't roll to hit, the game breaks and you might as well end the game and move on.

It's a shame with how they tried to clarify other issues they forgot the psychic ones.

Having read through the responses it has confirmed to me that the same situation exists as in 6th. It really is a shame they couldn't have just added a sentence to make things clear (one way or the other) for 7th edition considering the amount of queries/discussion/debate/argument there had been.

 Shandara wrote:
In absence of an actual die rolled on the table, have you Rolled To Hit? If a tree falls in a forest with no people...?

Claiming you automatically progress to the resolution of the power is something I'd like a page/reference on.

Here ya go: "Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

Aren't you just stuck on the requirement to ROLL something until you and your opponent agree how to solve this flaw in the rules?

The last time it came up we just ruled it as the 3d6 replaces the to-hit and to-wound rolls and kept playing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
the answer is that yes, it rolls to hit, yes only once, if you hit then you resolve the power, if you miss you do not.

(Emphasis mine)

Where are you getting that from?

Why not roll 100 dice to hit?

Some rules to back up your argument would be great.

Again "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a d6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once..." BRB pg 32 ROLL TO HIT.

That is you you roll to hit. Thus, unless a weapons specifies otherwise, you roll 1D6 to see if it hits. Witchfire powers state you roll to hit. Where is your rules permission to ignore this requirement?

Chance - nothing states how many dice is the default. That's where your claim falls apart.

It also falls apart when you realise you haven't provided a rule that links a successful to hit with continuing to resolve the power. There is such a line when rolling to wound, but nothing exists for rolling 3d6.