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Righhhht...like your distinction about wargear and allies - because there is someplace in the rules that talks about that...

"Reserve" is never defined, nor is the process for defining when a unit ceases to be nothing and suddenly becomes something; therefore, I don't see how you can claim your argument to be undeniably true.

At least by my method of resolution you are simultaneously fulfilling both requirements by defining Reserve in such a way as to create no conflict between the two rules. Your definitions seek to create a conflict then override one rule with the other of your choosing.

If you want to use that logic, fine. Then I'll just turn around and say that WWP are a more specific rule and therefore override any other restriction, similar with what you have done concerning deep strike. Your opinion that WWP is still wargear is irrelevant as it is never specified in the rules that non-BBs can't benefit from allied wargear.

Conjured units arrive via deep strike with extra rules, you have no permission to enter them onto the board any other way. Conjured units can not arrive via the portal without breaking the rules for Conjured units, which are more specific than he WWP rules.

IF they were in reserves they could use any of the deploying methods allowed, however conjured units arrive in a very specific fashion. They were never in reserve. For rules purposes they are considered as arriving from reserves, after they have arrived- and only if your using the conjured deployment rules. If you skip the Conjured units rule and use the WWP there is nothing then to say they were in reserve. All gets a bit inception at this point.

TerraFirst! wrote:
Righhhht...like your distinction about wargear and allies - because there is someplace in the rules that talks about that...

What are you talking about? What distinction?

"Reserve" is never defined, nor is the process for defining when a unit ceases to be nothing and suddenly becomes something; therefore, I don't see how you can claim your argument to be undeniably true.

Reserves is defined...

and the process of when a unit ceases to be nothing and suddenly becomes something clearly is defined within the conjuration rules. Maybe take another gander at the rules for conjuration, it is all right there.

At least by my method of resolution you are simultaneously fulfilling both requirements by defining Reserve in such a way as to create no conflict between the two rules.

Conflict? where?

Your definitions seek to create a conflict then override one rule with the other of your choosing.

No, first off there is no conflict. second you use the rules for conjurations when you manifest a conjuration...

If you want to use that logic, fine. Then I'll just turn around and say that WWP are a more specific rule and therefore override any other restriction, similar with what you have done concerning deep strike.

That is not how it works. The WWP tells us that units in reserve can use it.

Conjured units are never in reserve and as such can not use the webway portal.

Your opinion that WWP is still wargear is irrelevant as it is never specified in the rules that non-BBs can't benefit from allied wargear.

The Webway is wargear, are you suggesting that it isn't wargear?

it is never specified in the rules that non-BBs can't benefit from allied wargear.

Now I see the issue you are having.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do and you are not allowed to do anything else.

Terra - so dictate exactyly which units, ALL of them, you will G'tee to conjure during the game.

All of them. Every single unit you will conjure - you must predict a) your dice rolls b) your opponents dice rolls c) your perils chances d) your opponents actions in killing off your summoning units.

If you fail to do this with 100% accuracy, you will have broken the rule stating you must CLEARLY state your Reserves units.

Given your method is impossible, lets go with the one in the rules, which is a conflict to the general Reserves rules and thus wins out. Yep, thats the one to use.

Yeah people are acting like "having arrived from reserve" does not mean that a unit does not arrive from reserve which is just this weird semantic argument.

It's basically saying there is a stack order in 40k and it's adding rules to something that just doesn't exist.

How is it getting there? Via Deep Strike , where is it arriving from ? Reserve. It's a really simple sentence. .


If I said

the new unit then comes via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having comed from Reserves for all rules purposes.

Or
the new unit then enters via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having entered from Reserves for all rules purposes.


Are all the same statement

the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

Specifically refers to

the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

This.

Having Arrived can also be written as when it arrives. Something can not use a place to use as a method of arrival it has to come from somewhere and use a method to get there.


You cannot say The new unit arrives Reserves

Reserves is a place. It is a noun. Deep Strike is a noun that can be used as a verb.


the new unit(noun) then arrives(verb) via Deep Strike (noun/verb), within the power’s maximum range; the new unit(noun) is under your control and is treated as having arrived(VERB PHRASE) from Reserves(noun) for all rules purposes.

Those are treated as a verb phrase, one part is functioning as an adverb. The Verb of that phrase is ARRIVED, it is the past form of Arrives in that sentence.

Its not correct grammatical language, because it wouldn't make sense to say:

the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as arrives from Reserves for all rules purposes.

You can't write that, it's grammatically incorrect.

the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes

From : Is used to indicate the place something comes from,



the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

You would have to have a period here and change the tense of the sentence.

So yeah this is just basic grammar, it has to arrive from somewhere, and the method it gets there is stated.


edit:

Forgot to add that whole sentence can just be rewritten and it would still be the same exact sentence.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes

Is the same as

The new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range and the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes when the spell is resolved.

This is bad grammar so we do not write it like that, but we need all of the relevant information in one sentence. So we write it the previous way. Why? A wizard did it.

as this is essentially the same argument as posted in the falling back into transports thread, I'm just going to impose my quote from there.

 Nem wrote:

emmagine wrote:
Don't let him tell you that like it is some sort of definitive answer. If you try this in a tourney you'll likely get a card.

The rule saying that you "can't move other than to fall back" conflicts with "embarking counts as having moved." You could argue that it doesn't technically state that it counts *as a move*. But the verbiage is close enough that the only sort of people that would accept that interpretation, are 1. not running tournaments and 2. not the sort of casual gamers you'd have fun playing with.

All that said, I think they made a very strong case for being able to embark after regrouping.

I don't have the BRB to hand so this post assume 'counts as having moved' is actually from the rules.

counts as = is, the embarking unit has moved.

There's 2 ways to take that.
Either
1. The rule imposing a state after an action is carried only forward from then rules wise. (EG, no conflict in those because they only count as having moved after.they embark).
Or
2. Regard the later imposed state to interfere with actions taken before it. (EG. The action of embarking is ''undone'' or never existed because having embarked is movement, and that breaks the rules of falling back).

I believe 1. The rules exist in a linear state and 'having' done something is creating a restriction or action from that particular point forward.

The unit was only considered as arriving from reserves after completing the deep strike action. Counting as having done something in the rules is a very common occurrence - Treated as having is changing a particular rules tag to a condition that didn't actually happen, but from that point forward we play the rules as if it did happen.

In this case, the unit was never in reserves, it never arrived from reserves - but without treating it as if it had, then it the unit would be free to charge etc. It's a quick way of giving logical restrictions.

Good job it doesnt say "arriving", but "treated as having arrived from"

This means at no point IS it arriving, it is simply treated as having come from reserves after you deepstrike

 Nem wrote:
as this is essentially the same argument as posted in the falling back into transports thread, I'm just going to impose my quote from there.

 Nem wrote:

emmagine wrote:
Don't let him tell you that like it is some sort of definitive answer. If you try this in a tourney you'll likely get a card.

The rule saying that you "can't move other than to fall back" conflicts with "embarking counts as having moved." You could argue that it doesn't technically state that it counts *as a move*. But the verbiage is close enough that the only sort of people that would accept that interpretation, are 1. not running tournaments and 2. not the sort of casual gamers you'd have fun playing with.

All that said, I think they made a very strong case for being able to embark after regrouping.

I don't have the BRB to hand so this post assume 'counts as having moved' is actually from the rules.

counts as = is, the embarking unit has moved.

There's 2 ways to take that.
Either
1. The rule imposing a state after an action is carried only forward from then rules wise. (EG, no conflict in those because they only count as having moved after.they embark).
Or
2. Regard the later imposed state to interfere with actions taken before it. (EG. The action of embarking is ''undone'' or never existed because having embarked is movement, and that breaks the rules of falling back).

I believe 1. The rules exist in a linear state and 'having' done something is creating a restriction or action from that particular point forward.

The unit was only considered as arriving from reserves after completing the deep strike action. Counting as having done something in the rules is a very common occurrence - Treated as having is changing a particular rules tag to a condition that didn't actually happen, but from that point forward we play the rules as if it did happen.

In this case, the unit was never in reserves, it never arrived from reserves - but without treating it as if it had, then it the unit would be free to charge etc. It's a quick way of giving logical restrictions.

Basically yes if instead of using is treated as they used another phrase the sentence would look wonky.

We know that from that full sentence, that the unit uses deep strike as a method and treated as having arrived from reserve.

I don't see semantically how you can argue that phrase , treated as does not mean, treated as. It could have said.

For all intents and purposes? That looks weird though in the sentence.

And the conjured units are "treated as having arrived from reserve"

But this is only in effect after they successfully deep strike onto the battlefield.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the conjured units are "treated as having arrived from reserve"

But this is only in effect after they successfully deep strike onto the battlefield.

Please read what I what I wrote about reading comprehension, thank you. They happen at the same time.

It doesn't "show" up and then get's treated it's deep striking from reserve.

Having arrived is a direct reference to arrives.

How does it arrive? Deep strike. Where does it arrive from? Reserves.

At no point does it say , then , or after, or any of those phrases that would indicate afterwards.


Look your interpetation is just wrong, I could keep going on and explain and explain and explain. You would still think you are right, because in the face of all evidence and me explaining exactly what that sentence is to the point of breaking down the sentence grammatically you refuse to read it that way, the only way it can be read.


You would only be correct

If that sentence had the phrase , after deepstriking, following, etc.. or any iteration of that.

http://grammar.yourdictionary.com/grammar-rules-and-tips/independent-and-dependent-clauses.html

Read that, seriously.
Jesus Christ its not a linking verb.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the conjured units are "treated as having arrived from reserve"

But this is only in effect after they successfully deep strike onto the battlefield.

Please read what I what I wrote about reading comprehension, thank you. They happen at the same time.

No they dont, they DS then are "treated as having arrived from reserve" That is past tense...

It doesn't "show" up and then get's treated it's deep striking from reserve.

It really does, you may want to consider your own advice about reading comprehension, thank you.

Having arrived is a direct reference to arrives.

How does it arrive? Deep strike. Where does it arrive from? Reserves.

It was never in reserve therefore can not have arrived from there. Unless you somehow put a unit that did not exist into reserves at the beginning of the game...

"When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes." (Conjuration section of The psychic Phase chapter).

See how the unit arrives via Deep Strike and then is treated as having arrived from Reserves.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the conjured units are "treated as having arrived from reserve"

But this is only in effect after they successfully deep strike onto the battlefield.

Please read what I what I wrote about reading comprehension, thank you. They happen at the same time.

No they dont, they DS then are "treated as having arrived from reserve" That is past tense...

It doesn't "show" up and then get's treated it's deep striking from reserve.

It really does, you may want to consider your own advice about reading comprehension, thank you.

Having arrived is a direct reference to arrives.

How does it arrive? Deep strike. Where does it arrive from? Reserves.

It was never in reserve therefore can not have arrived from there. Unless you somehow put a unit that did not exist into reserves at the beginning of the game...

"When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes." (Conjuration section of The psychic Phase chapter).

See how the unit arrives via Deep Strike and then is treated as having arrived from Reserves.

That is a dependent clause, it has to be past tense, having arrived is in reference to arrives and where it arrives from.


I am going to lay it out for you again.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes

This

Refers to

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes

This


The sentence does not make grammatical sense other wise.

When the power is resolved the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike within the power’s maximum range.

The new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.


Having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes the new unit is under your control


Treated as, literally means, it is. It doesn't mean anything else. It is there because you did not have the unit in reserves at the beginning of the game and it is there for you to know that it comes from reserve and it treated as coming from reserve.

It is still arriving from reserve.

If it said , Afterwords, after, after the unit deepstrikes, or any other statement that designated when then you would be correct


If you were correct, there would be no need to have that whole sentence. It would just say : The new unit then arrives via Deep Strike within the power’s maximum range and the new unit is under your control.


You are just grammatically wrong.


Please answer me this question, if it does not count as arriving from reserve. Why would they put that sentence in there? It would be pointless if nothing affected it whatsoever by your defintion and "interpretation"

You are just wrong.

Hollismason, questions for you.

Do you need to declare the Summoned unit in Deep Strike Reserve at the start of the game?

Why or why not?

It doesn't matter if it is reserve at the beginning of the game, it's treated as coming from reserve. That has no bearing on the rule we are trying to discern as the Wargear item already states that it doesn't care as long as it "arrives from reserve".

Next.

It literally has no bearing on this at all.


I'll ask you a question, what purpose does that second phrase in regards to having arrived from reserve have if it has not a single bearing on the game itself, as has already been stated it triggers ZERO abilities that affect units coming from reserve?

Answer that because if you say Coteaz ability works, or the Deathmarks or any other ability that affects units arriving from Reserve works, then I am correct and I already am because those effects do trigger on summoned Daemons. Otherwise they would not have made a clarification to treat it as it is arriving from reserve.

I've explained Grammatically, Logically, RAI, and RAW why it does in fact work because Grammatically it works because that sentence is a compound sentence referring directly to where it arrives from, Deepstrike is it's method of arriving, I've explained Logically, it has to arrive from somewhere as it has restrictions on what it can do due to arriving from reserve, I've described RAI because they want to clarify and make sure that those "triggered on reserves" abilities work. I'

Except that the webway requires the unit to be in reserve, something the conjured unit never are...

Ergo they can not use it as they are only treated as having arrived from Reserves once the conjured unit has been placed on the table and used the Deep strike rules already.

"When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike" so you resolve the power at the same time you DS the models. You then treat them as having arrived from reserve after they DS.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that the webway requires the unit to be in reserve, something the conjured unit never are...

Ergo they can not use it as they are only treated as having arrived from Reserves once the conjured unit has been placed on the table and used the Deep strike rules already.

"When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike" so you resolve the power at the same time you DS the models. You then treat them as having arrived from reserve after they DS.

Nope. "From then on any units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal markers edge instead of entering as normal ( it does not matter whether these units were intending to deepstrike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on) "

Nope. Already explained why this isn't true in detail , and why if true it makes it a pointless sentence

Nope. Already explained why this isn't true in detail, and why if true it makes it a pointless sentence.

Come at me brah.

I've explained exactly why it works. Now explain to me they wrote that entire sentence if it has no bearing whatsoever on the game, because if that is true then your way no abilities that affect units arriving from reserve affect Summoned Daemons whatsoever and that entire sentence is pointless.

You're underlined is of no consequence. Daemons don't arrive from reserve as has been pointed out to you multiple times already.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're underlined is of no consequence. Daemons don't arrive from reserve as has been pointed out to you multiple times already.

Yet, I've pointed out multiple times grammatically and logically that they do and that if you don't believe they don't then you make that sentence pointless as

I’ve Been Expecting You: If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12" of Coteaz
and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-
sequence shooting attack against it. There is no limit on how many times the ability can
be used in a turn.

No ability that is worded that way affects Summoned Demons, whatsoever. Your logic is that they wrote a entire sentence, that has nothing to do. It just doesn't function. There is no point to writing. Maybe you should go back and reread the giant text and complete breakdown of why people are wrong before just going " Uh uh, that doesn't work".

I've explained multiple times, why he is wrong , you are wrong, and anyone who says that they don't are also wrong.

Read what I wrote instead of just going " No, uh uh , they don't".

Your choices are

1. They do in fact arrive from reserve, abilities do trigger on them arriving and they can be selected. As I have pointed out grammatically, logically, and intelligently.

2. No, abilities trigger as they live in the "aether", that sentence makes no sense grammatically and has no reason to be written.

Again, your point has been refuted numerous times by numerous posters. Daemons do not arrive from reserve. They are only considered as having arrived from reserve once they are on the table.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, your point has been refuted numerous times by numerous posters. Daemons do not arrive from reserve. They are only considered as having arrived from reserve once they are on the table.

I've explained exactly why and no one has argued it. My point and question has not been answered once even you haven't answered it you've just regurgitated some bizzaro statement that someone else has because they don't understand how the English language works.

Actually address what I am saying and answer that question.

They are '...treated as having arrived from reserves...' which is past tense.

Since it is past tense they are '...treated as having arrived from reserves...' after they have used the DS rules.

Bottom line, no webway use.

I think Hollismason is actually right here. The wording of the rule does actually support his viewpoint. You really do need to read his posts carefully. It is all very well explained. Not one person has been able to answer his multiple questions, and they are indeed very relevant questions.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I think Hollismason is actually right here. The wording of the rule does actually support his viewpoint. You really do need to read his posts carefully. It is all very well explained. Not one person has been able to answer his multiple questions, and they are indeed very relevant questions.

I have, check my last post, it has the reasons that the webway can not be used by conjured units.

 DeathReaper wrote:
They are '...treated as having arrived from reserves...' which is past tense.

Since it is past tense they are '...treated as having arrived from reserves...' after they have used the DS rules.

Bottom line, no webway use.

No you haven't at all you've just been repeating the same garbage over and over again. I've already explained grammatically why you are wrong and you either are not addressing it because you realize that it's correct, or you are not answering it because your not intelligent enough to understand the grammatical statements and rules I've put forth.

You have two choices and only two choices.


1. They do in fact arrive from reserve, abilities do trigger on them arriving and they can be selected. As I have pointed out grammatically, logically, and intelligently.

2. No, abilities trigger as they live in the "aether", that sentence makes no sense grammatically and has no reason to be written.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I think Hollismason is actually right here. The wording of the rule does actually support his viewpoint. You really do need to read his posts carefully. It is all very well explained. Not one person has been able to answer his multiple questions, and they are indeed very relevant questions.

I have, check my last post, it has the reasons that the webway can not be used by conjured units.

Again, your incorrect. You are showing that you fundamentally do not have a understanding of grammar and reason.

Those two option are our only available option. I have explained in detail why specifically that is written that way grammatically.

Hollismason wrote:
No you haven't at all you've just been repeating the same garbage over and over again.

Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black. It is you who are wrong, especially on the grammar. Why did you even bother to start this thread in the first place if all you were going to do is stick your fingers in your ears and go "Nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" when you get an answer you don't like?

 Ghaz wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
No you haven't at all you've just been repeating the same garbage over and over again.

Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black. It is you who are wrong, especially on the grammar. Why did you even bother to start this thread in the first place if all you were going to do is stick your fingers in your ears and go "Nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" when you get an answer you don't like?

Please explain to me how I am grammatically wrong, because the fact is I've listed MULTIPLE reasons why you are incorrect, and yet you still go back to " That is the past tense", yeah that's not correct. I am right on the grammar, you just don't understand it or unwilling to.

You still can't address either of those two questions that I've put forth.

You've just been repeating your statement over and over again like a broken record, a broken record that doesn't understand English.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I think Hollismason is actually right here. The wording of the rule does actually support his viewpoint. You really do need to read his posts carefully. It is all very well explained. Not one person has been able to answer his multiple questions, and they are indeed very relevant questions.

I have, check my last post, it has the reasons that the webway can not be used by conjured units.

This is what I think you are missing:

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike...

The word "then" is included to let us know that the unit arrives via Deep Strike after the power is resolved.

...within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

Notice here there is nothing in the next part that tells us to treat the unit as such after it arrives. Hollismason has explained in great detail why the verb phrase "having arrived" was used, and how it relates to the tense of the sentence as a whole.

Thank you for your support by the way. Also the fact that you actually understand my statements on grammar and why it is specifically written that way.

If you are treating the unit as being in reserves prior to the Deep Strike, why are you not declaring the unit to be in DS reserve at the start of the game?

 Happyjew wrote:
If you are treating the unit as being in reserves prior to the Deep Strike, why are you not declaring the unit to be in DS reserve at the start of the game?

This has nothing to do with anything that we are discussing at all and is just dumb and literally missing the entire point of this.

Here's why this has nothing to do with it.

The ability in question, does not require that they be in reserve at the beginning of the game at all. Just that they arrive from reserve which they do they're treated as having arrived from Reserve.

Where do they come from and how do they get there, if you can answer either of those then you have your answer.