Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've played Nids since forth and I'm currently looking to try something new. Instead of bringing a Double Flyrant every single game, I want to use Deathleaper. And I'd like to make him my warlord / actually use his warlord trait. For those of you who haven't used Deathleaper before, he is surprisingly resilient on the defensive side.

- Has stealth. Isn't fearless, can go to ground for +1 cover and gain fearless via synapse next turn with zero negatives
- has assault grenades
- can only be targeted by snap shots. This means Wall of Death, overwatch from a Flamer template cannot hit DL as it is done instead of taking a snapshot / isn't a snapshot. This didn't change in 6th / 7th. (see post below for clarity)
- has infiltrate
- has hit and run

All of these things considered, it isn 't hard to place DL and have him live long enough to actually make it to combat / issue a challenge. The problem I'm having with DL is finding Independent Characters that DL can actually beat in a challenge. In most cases, he works just fine against normal characters in combat. But after a few games, I've yet to have mind eater actually activate. In most games, DL will die, but not before taking his points worth in firepower.

What I'd like to know is what ICs would be good targets for DL? Maybe I'm simply too aggressive with him or need to shelf him till I fight a certain faction / matchup. Is there any ICs that fear him? His attacks are S6 and rend only on 6's (wish he still rended on 5's) so SV 2+ is probably a bad idea for him to fight at full power.

EDIT: RAW argument for Wall of Death posted below.

I think that wall of death is still in effect cause it's not a template.

Yeah, Wall of Death will still destroy Deathleaper.

Deathleaper is not much of a close combat threat, the major reason people took it previously was because of the leadership penalty making it harder for Psykers to manifest psychic powers.

Could you use him and then combo it with some sort of Alpha strike to cause a shooting LD test and maybe make a unit flee of the board first turn?

Another threat suggests Death Leaper paired with dark eldar allies. The DE bring a Ham with Crucible, joined into a deep striking transport.

Pop the crucible and profit.

-Matt

I use Deathleaper to sit around near my enemy in which case one of two things happen. Either they down him with tons of shooting (from needing 6s) or they ignore him (or fail to kill him) at which point my two Mawlocs deep-strike within 6" of him, and don't scatter. Works ok, and, like you say, is a nice change of pace.

 The Shadow wrote:
I use Deathleaper to sit around near my enemy in which case one of two things happen. Either they down him with tons of shooting (from needing 6s) or they ignore him (or fail to kill him) at which point my two Mawlocs deep-strike within 6" of him, and don't scatter. Works ok, and, like you say, is a nice change of pace.

Word, one way to get more out of the Ole BioNinja is to use his ability to guide in Deepstrikes, it's not much, but it is something. And having an angry Mawloc show up should help force some morale checks. You could call in Tunneling Ripper Swarms onto a Objective, that should brew some angst.

 koooaei wrote:
I think that wall of death is still in effect cause it's not a template.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yeah, Wall of Death will still destroy Deathleaper.

I should know better than to make a claim on the tactics forum without backing it up.

Where is it?: Enemy models can only fire snapshots when targeting Deathleaper (Page 61 Nids Codex)

Snapshot: If a unit is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.... some weapons types, such as Template or Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as snap shots. (Page 32 BRB 7th)

Wall of Death: Template weapons can fire overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots. (page 173 brb)

So, enemy models can only fire snapshots via Deathleapers specific rule (when targeting him). Wall of Death is not a snap shot. It doesn't matter at all if its a template or not, his specific rules make him an invalid target.

This also means that he has pseudo immunity to some psychic attacks as well. He cannot be targeted by Beam or Nova type attacks.

Just for clarity purposes, this only prevents attacks from targeting DL. If you fire a blast that targeted another unit and it scattered onto DL, he would most certainly take the damage.

The question I have (as I am a loss RAW wise) is weather or not this protection covers Maledictions as well. The idea of 'firing' a Malediction is a bit of a stretch to begin with. However, as you cannot snap-shot a Malediction, he would be immune to being targeted by it. This will require a bit more research before I'd even try to make such a claim; I'm only speculating ATM. If either of you find some RAW evidence on this, I'd be glad to see it.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Another threat suggests Death Leaper paired with dark eldar allies. The DE bring a Ham with Crucible, joined into a deep striking transport.

Pop the crucible and profit.

-Matt

I have never used / owned any DE. I'm unaware of this combo, but it's something I'll have to look into. I'm glad that the allies chart changed for Nids, but I'll be honest... I'm really just looking foward to allying with myself. Lore wise, I can't understand why I'd be able to anything beyond that. Thank you for the idea though, I will look into it.

 The Shadow wrote:
I use Deathleaper to sit around near my enemy in which case one of two things happen. Either they down him with tons of shooting (from needing 6s) or they ignore him (or fail to kill him) at which point my two Mawlocs deep-strike within 6" of him, and don't scatter. Works ok, and, like you say, is a nice change of pace.

I've done the same a few times. The problem really isn't how to use him as a lictor - he does that job just fine when it comes to deep striking / mawloc attacks.

The problem is Mind Eater. I still have yet to actually have a chance to activate it, let alone find a target for DL to use it on.

Has anyone actually activated Mind Eater?

Looking over the relevant rules I've change my position to agree with Megamanrocks, as Wall of Death is not considered Snap Firing Deathleaper is immune.
Maledictions aren't fired at all so the restriction of only firing Snap Shots does not affect their ability to use maledictions in the slightest.

Here's the problem with Mind Eater; either the Independent Character is (a) Better in close combat than Deathleaper, so will accept the challenge and kill it or (b) worse in close combat than Deathleaper and will refuse the challenge while the unit they're attached to kills it.

So in order to activate Mind Eater you need to assault a unit frail enough that Deathleaper can kill them, with a weak enough IC that even a wounded Deathleaper can still take them on. Then you need to kill all of them except the Independent Character, and not Sweeping Advance them. Then on the next turn you can challenge the IC and kill them.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Looking over the relevant rules I've change my position to agree with Megamanrocks, as Wall of Death is not considered Snap Firing Deathleaper is immune.
Maledictions aren't fired at all so the restriction of only firing Snap Shots does not affect their ability to use maledictions in the slightest.

I have to agree. I spent all day yesterday trying to look into this. Powers are cast, not fired. Only witchfires are treated as shooting attacks. So DLs unique defense isn't activated as no shooting is going on.

I did send an email to GW (for what its worth) concerning WoD and DL. I'm 100% positive he's immune to WoD, but its not a very obvious thing until you really break it down. I imagine most people think he can be hit by it. So hopefully it'll be added to the FAQ (if they are actually staying up on that now.)

Here's the problem with Mind Eater; either the Independent Character is (a) Better in close combat than Deathleaper, so will accept the challenge and kill it or (b) worse in close combat than Deathleaper and will refuse the challenge while the unit they're attached to kills it.

So in order to activate Mind Eater you need to assault a unit frail enough that Deathleaper can kill them, with a weak enough IC that even a wounded Deathleaper can still take them on. Then you need to kill all of them except the Independent Character, and not Sweeping Advance them. Then on the next turn you can challenge the IC and kill them.

Yes. This is the core of the problem.

I'm of the belief now that I need to soften up the IC via shooting (possibly assault with other units if need be) to weaken them down to 1 wound. Out of all his attacks (+2 weapons / charging) the chance of scoring a rending wound is actually pretty decent. Of course , I imagine they'll have an invuln save, but I honestly think thats the only way mind eater will go off.

Megamanrocks wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Looking over the relevant rules I've change my position to agree with Megamanrocks, as Wall of Death is not considered Snap Firing Deathleaper is immune.
Maledictions aren't fired at all so the restriction of only firing Snap Shots does not affect their ability to use maledictions in the slightest.

I have to agree. I spent all day yesterday trying to look into this. Powers are cast, not fired. Only witchfires are treated as shooting attacks. So DLs unique defense isn't activated as no shooting is going on.

I did send an email to GW (for what its worth) concerning WoD and DL. I'm 100% positive he's immune to WoD, but its not a very obvious thing until you really break it down. I imagine most people think he can be hit by it. So hopefully it'll be added to the FAQ (if they are actually staying up on that now.)

Here's the problem with Mind Eater; either the Independent Character is (a) Better in close combat than Deathleaper, so will accept the challenge and kill it or (b) worse in close combat than Deathleaper and will refuse the challenge while the unit they're attached to kills it.

So in order to activate Mind Eater you need to assault a unit frail enough that Deathleaper can kill them, with a weak enough IC that even a wounded Deathleaper can still take them on. Then you need to kill all of them except the Independent Character, and not Sweeping Advance them. Then on the next turn you can challenge the IC and kill them.

Yes. This is the core of the problem.

I'm of the belief now that I need to soften up the IC via shooting (possibly assault with other units if need be) to weaken them down to 1 wound. Out of all his attacks (+2 weapons / charging) the chance of scoring a rending wound is actually pretty decent. Of course , I imagine they'll have an invuln save, but I honestly think thats the only way mind eater will go off.

Yeah, I am the weirdo, who seems to use his CC Big Bugs mostly to join ongoing combats. (First tarpit, then assassinate ) You don't charge, but you have more control of outcomes. I think if you want to Mind Eat, you need a Lictor Brood for Deathleaper to be a part of That way you can pull apart units, and Flesh Hook the heck out your target, before lunch.

The problem with Deathleaper is the same problem he had in 6th.. He doesn't really *do* anything for his point cost. yay, 1 model has hit and run and can be somewhat-competent in CC..

His main ability was to give psykers LD 7.. yet that isn't useful anymore so.. why are you wasting a HQ slot on him is the question.

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem with Deathleaper is the same problem he had in 6th.. He doesn't really *do* anything for his point cost. yay, 1 model has hit and run and can be somewhat-competent in CC..

His main ability was to give psykers LD 7.. yet that isn't useful anymore so.. why are you wasting a HQ slot on him is the question.

'Cause BioNinja! I've been considering it a good choice for x2 CAD lists. Slots are usually not an issue with x2 FOC. (I'm doing it so I get x6 Elites, x6 Heavy slots...the HQ is a "tax" )

Do Tyranids have any ICs? You could always attach those to Deathleaper to give him more survivability, and they'd benefit from his only-snapshots rule.

 Badablack wrote:
Do Tyranids have any ICs? You could always attach those to Deathleaper to give him more survivability, and they'd benefit from his only-snapshots rule.

One IC. Who is overcosted. And can't use Deathleaper's unique deployment. And overall isn't a good option to take for any reason.

 Badablack wrote:
Do Tyranids have any ICs? You could always attach those to Deathleaper to give him more survivability, and they'd benefit from his only-snapshots rule.

Yes, the Tyranid Prime; though foot-slogging him across the board instead of his Chameleonic Skin (Deep Strike w/ no scatter)...
It is a possibility, though I mainly run him alone.

Am I the only one who responds to Deathleaper by assaulting him with a unit of Grey Hunters or a combat squad of Tacticals and watching him get beaten to death?

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Am I the only one who responds to Deathleaper by assaulting him with a unit of Grey Hunters or a combat squad of Tacticals and watching him get beaten to death?

Odds of that happening...
Assume all 10 of your dudemen are alive.
DL has 5 attacks, 3 hit, 3 wound (one rend), 1-2 dead marines.
19 attacks (counting sarge), 6 hit, 3 wound, 2 wounds bypass armor save.

He survives to H&R out of there (I7 so it's likely he gets away).
How often does this work for you?

A unit of Grey Hunters throws 27 S4 WS4 attacks and d6+2 WS4, S4 Rending attacks into him. 9 normal and 2 Rending attacks hit hit, 4 normal and one possible Rending wound, he makes two saves, and drops dead.

That's assuming the snap shots from two meltaguns, a krak grenade, and 7 bolt pistols don't do anything to him.

Edit: I think it's worked twice. Then again, I've only seen two people willing to waste an HQ slot to put DL on the table.

The other option is to just assault him with a Lone Wolf.

DL hits 3 times, wounds 3 (including a Rend because I'm feeling generous). The LW makes a pair of 2+ saves and a single 3++, all backed by a 5+ Feel No Pain. Then he comes back with 3 attacks, hits with 1, and kills DL outright with his chainfist.

Or if you want to get extra classy, box him in with Jump Infantry or bikes and tank shock him. When he can't move because he's walled in, he gets removed.

What it really boils down to is this. He lacks the survivability to stand there and take it on the chin for a turn after he appears, and can't do anything useful the turn he arrives.