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Invisibility says you can only fire snap shots at the target unit. (page 198)
Snap shot says you cannot snap shot a weapon that does not use BS. (page 33)
Beam powers say that you target a point on the table (not a unit). (page 27)
If a psyker isn't compelled to snap shot vs all targets (such as being in a combat speed transport), it looks like he can Manifest a Beam, and choose a line that crosses an invisible unit. Because he didn't target them, the requirement of Invisibility to snap shot isn't triggered, and the unit is hit (along with any friendly models and addition enemy models under the line; sans zooming flyers and swooping MFC).
Does that seem correct?
I'm looking at a Telekinesis heavy list, so I'll get a lot of Assail as free powers.


Nova Powers do target, and automatically hit all enemy units in range.
If I've got 3 enemy units in range, and one unit is invisible, does the invisible unit block the whole power?
Nova is a Psychic Shooting, and it doesn't roll to hit vs BS, as such it cannot snap fire. But you must snap fire to target the invisible unit.
You don't have permission to only target some of the units.
What happens?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Nova is a Psychic Shooting, and it doesn't roll to hit vs BS, as such it cannot snap fire.

I think this isn't true. Nova powers have a number in their Weapon Type. For example, Pyromancy's Sunburst is Assault 2d6. These shots still need to roll to hit and wound, and as such can Snap Shoot.

Nova's don't roll to hit

Nova powers dont roll to hi, the Nova profile says they automatically hit, you dont target with a nova power either, it hits everything within range thats eligible.

Invisible units would still get hit by a nova power.

Nova powers now target all enemy units in range, this is changed from 6th but it does indeed target units.

It still automatically hits though

Yes, but can you auto hit while having to use snap shots now?.

Its not a shooting attack. I dont see why it wouldnt hit automatically? You dont roll to hit. It targets and automatically hits all units in range. I dont see why it would ignore that unit that's Invisible

MarkyMark wrote:
Yes, but can you auto hit while having to use snap shots now?.

Why not? Snap Shots just make hitting harder. Auto-hit is like automatically rolling 6s. I don't see anything stopping you from "snap shotting" an autohit power, so long as it's targeting and firing.

We have blasts and templates countered by invisibility because they specifically CANNOT snap shot. But there isn't some general rule listing every weapon in the game that CAN.

Another important note is that unlike flyers that have the "Hard to Hit" rule Invisibility does not say that the unit can only be hit by snapshots, it says if they are the "TARGET" then the to hit rolls must be snap shots. which doesn't really apply to Nova powers, blast weapons that scatter onto them, flamers that target units behind them, Tesla arcs, etc.

Wrenthefaceless wrote:Its not a shooting attack

p26 under Novas - "a nova is treated like a shooting attack".

Kisada II wrote:it says if they are the "TARGET" then the to hit rolls must be snap shots. which doesn't really apply to Nova powers

very first sentence under nova powers - "a nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units ..." It does, indeed, apply to Novas.

What I believe would happen here is that the Nova would be allowed to fire, but would not affect the invisible units at all. Logic as follows:
- Novas do not use ballistic skill and are treated like a shooting attack.
- Snap shots state that any shooting attack that does not use a ballistic skill may not be snap fired
- Invisibility requires all shooting attacks that target the affected unit to be snap fired.
p.30 - The Shooting phase - Choose a target states that you "Choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at". This means that when you fire a Nova you target a single enemy unit at a time and resolve the attacks for them before moving on to the next available target. When you come to target the invisible unit the shooting attack is disallowed due to the snap shot rule. You then continue on to the next target (if there is one) and continue as normal.

But you're ignoring the "Automaticaly hit part" you cant ignore part of the nova rules in favor of the Invisible rules

I actually directly addressed the "automatically hit" part. Novas automatically hit, therefore they do not use a ballistic skill. Snap firing specifically disallows this.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
But you're ignoring the "Automaticaly hit part" you cant ignore part of the nova rules in favor of the Invisible rules

So it doesn't use BS to hit?
What do the Snap Shot rules say in that case?

You're right, it says exactly that.

"Any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill"
-- (our nova powers)--
"cannot be 'fired' AS a snap shot"
(Pg 33, second paragraph, 3rd line)
doesn't say you can't fire the weapon, just says you can't fire it as a snap shot.

Woah now, no need to get snarky. Your post doesn't disagree with how said i thought it would work. Invis does not disallow the power from firing, only being fired at a snap shot which it must do when targeting the invisibility unit. When targeting all other units it is fired as normal.

I apologize if I came across as snarky, I just meant (and it seemed from your posts) that you wanted to argue a point by nit picking words from the rule book.

In other words, the impression I got was not one desiring honest interpretation of the rules, but to find a way to create completely unintended rule interpretations.

I guess that is a flaw of the written text (My intentions were not clear! And neither are the rule book's)

I don't think I nitpicked any words :/ were you referring to saying that something that "automatically hits" doesn't use a ballistic skill? Because If that wasn't a common deduction I'm not sure what that line was in the rules for. What else doesn't use a ballistic skill to hit? And the interpretations of the phrases I quoted were all the common interpretations. At least I thought they were. Which phrase(s) in particular do you feel I bent the interpretations for?

It was probably just me immediately steeling myself for rule warriors when I enter this subforum, but specifically this line rustled my jimmys

" When you come to target the invisible unit the shooting attack is disallowed due to the snap shot rule."

So I felt like you were reading the passage I quoted to benefit your interpretation. Which was not the intention of the rule.
Like I said, it was my initial impression and I apologize.

Bojazz wrote:
What else doesn't use a ballistic skill to hit?

Lots of things.
Flamers and Bomb-Squigs

I know you're being silly to lighten the mood, and I love you for it. But Snap firing calls out flamers separately. If it is not talking about shooting attacks that automatically hits then there's no reason to include the separate line about shooting attacks that don't use a ballistic skill.

By your interpretation. would a blast weapon that scattered onto a unit with invisibility not be able to fire suddenly because that blast weapon can't be fired as a snap shot?

If I were to present a reason, outside the interpretation of the rather ambuigious "These weapons cannot be fired as a snap shot" setence, I would bring the arguement back to

"Basic rules << Special rules"

In that, where Witchfire as shooting attacks is a general rule, but the beam-subtype of Witchfire is a special rule, that states it automatically hits everything in its path.
Likewise, a nova attack.... Automatically hits all enemys in range.

Poor comparison, Different scenario. Blast weapons that scatter don't target the unit they scatter onto. Invisibility procs when the unit is targeted. Also the Nova rules outright say that it is also treated as a shooting attack. Beams are not shooting attacks and do not target units, They would be able to automatically hit an invisible unit.

Beams are shooting attacks.

"Beam
To use a withfire power with the beam sub-type..."

Witchfire:

"Witchfire powers are shooting attacks"

QED, Beams are shooting attacks.

A fair logic, but does not change the fact that they do not target units. Invisibiilty procs when a shooting attack targets that unit. Beams and scattering blasts don't do this. Novas do.

Would you have to snap-shot Shriek at an Invisible unit or does it auto hit?

It is unclear how PS works (pure RAW) because we are required to roll to hit, but are never told how many dice to use. Here's the thread on that. It appears you can resolve PS regardless of if you hit or not. So you would fire it as a snap shot, ignore the result, and resolve the power.

 erick99 wrote:
It is unclear how PS works (pure RAW) because we are required to roll to hit, but are never told how many dice to use. Here's the thread on that. It appears you can resolve PS regardless of if you hit or not. So you would fire it as a snap shot, ignore the result, and resolve the power.

O.O



How do you come to this conclusion? I understand that it is unclear as to how many dice you need to roll in order to hit with the spell, but what makes you think you can roll and then ignore the result?

Brief summation.

Rolling To Wound is dependent on successful To Hit Rolls.

Since the power does not roll To Wound (it just inflicts a random number of Wounds), then it does not matter if the power Hits or not.

 Happyjew wrote:
Brief summation.

Rolling To Wound is dependent on successful To Hit Rolls.

Since the power does not roll To Wound (it just inflicts a random number of Wounds), then it does not matter if the power Hits or not.

So why bother to roll at all then if you're simply going to ignore the results?

Is this a legit play or something that we have settled on upon on this forum? I'd like to know in case I run into anyone at the hobby shop