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I have a player that normally fields 2 land raiders and or 2 vindicators (or the stormraven/talon dataslate) on a regular basis and I am just get started up with nids (I have white scar bikes & necrons), with 7th and the smash attack rule changes how do nids reliably deal with av 13-14 (i'm also looking to do a hormagaunt horde themed army)?

Thanks

 Whereswaldo wrote:
I have a player that normally fields 2 land raiders and or 2 vindicators (or the stormraven/talon dataslate) on a regular basis and I am just get started up with nids (I have white scar bikes & necrons), with 7th and the smash attack rule changes how do nids reliably deal with av 13-14 (i'm also looking to do a hormagaunt horde themed army)?

Thanks

Unfortunately, Hormagaunts and dealing with Armor do not go well together...

Our best ways of dealing with Armor are two: Devourers, and Haywire.

Devourers on Carnifex deal with light vehicle spam. Flyrants are a better platform due to high mobility, and thus can hit the side armor of a Vindicator to get around AV 13.

Of course, Land Raiders don't give a Frak about side armor, so our only real option against them is to either ignore them, or drown them in Haywire. This means you should put Electroshock grubs on everything that can take it, and it means you should take Crones despite their minor Nerfs.

So, I'd recommend 2 Flyrants with Devourers and EG and 2 Crones. This allows you to take down flyers reasonably well, and makes you at least decent against heavy armor. Not great, but decent. If you want to keep a "swarm" theme you will still easily have enough points to add in a crapton of Hormagaunts.

EDIT: It should be noted that CC is technically an option... if it has 1 HP left I would try it. Otherwise, not really. The only CC unit that can really kill tanks is the Carnifex, especially with Crusher Claws, but these are only needed against Raiders/Monoliths.

Electroshock grubs.

TBH, Nids are not equipped for anti-tank. Also, a hormagaunt horde sounds weak, from a tactical standpoint.

Ally in a knight with a melta cannon. I've been trying that out in place of a Tfex and some other bits in my recent lists. Either melta/battle cannon it, or D punch it if it gets close enough. Its amazing how well having some armor and a big ass gun works with nids.

If you just run T3 cheap guys, and T6 big guys, you neuter the effectiveness of those S10 pie plates.
Crushing Claws (+1 strength, AP2 and armor bane) will wreck him.
Haruspex and carnifex would be awesome. The more the better.
I've heard Hive Crones clear the skies.

thanks for the responses, ya the gaunt horde seems weaker on the tactical side but I normally play white scar bikes / necron av 13 spam (8 av 13 vehicles at 1500 pts) so i'm looking for a little bit of a challenge and for something that is fun to play .... 2 flytyrants, 100-150 hormagaunts with toxic sacs, and some support (zoanthropes / carnifexes / crones) would be hard to deal with and cover the table

What I have seen from Tyranid players versus armies with superheavies and AV13/14 is less about taking out these vehicles, and more about tarpitting / immobilizing them.

A Gargoyle Brood with Blinding Venom can hit a unit to make it BS 1 / WS 1. There are no restrictions on the unit type, and units without initiative values fail the test automatically. With preferred enemy, there's a high likelihood this is going to go off.

So basically, use them to tarpit tanks. You don't need to take off hull points, you just need to render the vehicle almost useless.

Models without an I stat are not affected by blind.


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Honestly, i too like to run the Horde and since i don't like flyrants i'm even more in trouble against high AV. Just ignore them and eat what you can. My only resoure against high AV is a prime with the Reaper, glands, toxin and Ymgarl genes. 6 S8 rending meele attacks are good when you can slingshot with your gaunts.

Not much to add, Nids just don't do well vs heavy armor, not before the nurf, definately not after. The Only real "solution" is glace the heck out of them, then Smash the last one off (or keep glancing. ) Sadly the meta looks to be moving more towards Heavy equipment, since everything is scoring ...

If your meta is heavy on land raiders then a carnifex centric list seems ideal. D3 s9 av- hammer of wrath and 3-4 s9-10 Av2 normal attacks is pretty decent against av14. Adrenal glands and a 1/3 chance at infiltration from the warlord trait helps deliver them.

If LoW is allowed then 12 s10 ap3 shots will do work.

I'm dubious about much of the advice offered above. I play in a meta that is very land raider heavy. It was land raider heavy in 6th, and it is not likely to go down in 7th. I also regularly see high AV fliers like Storm Ravens.

GW has seen fit to remove Tyranid's ability to deal with AV 13+, and so we have to do what we can.

Do not try to kill a Land Raider. Do not try to build a list to kill a Land Raider. Our focus should be playing to the objectives and ignoring the Land Raider.

Crushing Claws can only be used on things that are slower than a Land Raider, and that a Land Raider can kill in the 4 turns it will take for them to track it down.
E. Grubs are useful, but at most can take off 1 HP from a Land Raider, and if they are carried by a Dakka Flyrant, there should always be a better target that you can shoot.
Warp Lance is not reliable enough to plan a game strategy around. Since you can pick a different target with Warp Lance, go ahead and send one into the Land Raider if you have range and warp dice, but do not expect it to kill it.
Smash is now Trash.
Tentaclids are good against flyers, but bad against Land Raiders. 4 Tentaclids (everything a crone has) will on average take 1.66666 HP off a Land Raider.
Crone Vector strike got nerfed.
HVC wasn't very good before, but now it is pointless.
Rupture Cannon was Trash before, but now it is rotten smelly trash.
Carnifexes theoretically can kill a Land Raider, but I've charged land raiders with Carnifexes two dozen times, and have yet to finish one off in Close combat. The challenge is it takes 2 charges with 2 Carnifexes to have a good shot at killing it. It will be turn 4 by the time carnifexes catch it. You are better off using Dakka fexes to kill his other units.

There is nothing in the codex to kill Land Raiders, so don't bother. Dakka Flyrants can still take down AV 12, so use them against High AV Flyers. Tentaclids are good against flyers as are Crone Vector strikes so use those.

If building a list to counter Land Raider spam, you can use MSU. Land Raiders have quality of fire, but not Quantity. So Lots of Gaunts. Also, you can try to rule the skies, which will give you a mobility advantage. A Land Raider is a big points investment, so if someone is running 2 land raiders, they usually don't have much else. Take units that are good at killing the other stuff, and then lots of gaunts to sit on objectives and eat fire from the Land Raiders.