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2014/07/02 15:22:54
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
I'll just leave this here for our American friends and bow out of this discussion:
CALIFORNIA Penal Code Section 182-185
185. Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of: One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense. Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Washington, D.C.)
§ 22-3312.03. Wearing hoods or masks.
(a) No person or persons over 16 years of age, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, shall:
(1) Enter upon, be, or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road highway, or other public way in the District of Columbia;
(2) Enter upon, be, or appear upon or within the public property of the District of Columbia; or
(3) Hold any manner of meeting or demonstration.
FLORIDA Chapter 876 Criminal Anarchy, Treason and other Crimes Against Public Order
876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.--No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.
GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses,16-11-38.
(a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.
(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.
NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks.
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)
VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422:
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
WEST VIRGINIA 61-6-22.
Wearing masks, hoods or face coverings.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, no person, whether in a motor vehicle or otherwise, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby any portion of the face is so covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, may:
(1) Come into or appear upon any walk, alley, street, road, highway or other thoroughfare dedicated to public use;
(2) Come into or appear in any trading area, concourse, waiting room, lobby or foyer open to, used by or frequented by the general public;
(3) Come into or appear upon or within any of the grounds or buildings owned, leased, maintained or operated by the state or any political subdivision thereof;
(4) Ask, request, or demand entrance or admission to the premises, enclosure, dwelling or place of business of any other person within this state; or
(5) Attend or participate in any meeting upon private property of another unless written permission for such meeting has first been obtained from the owner or occupant thereof.
(b) The provisions of this section do not apply to any person:
(1) Under sixteen years of age;
(2) Wearing a traditional holiday costume;
(3) Engaged in a trade or employment where a mask, hood or device is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer;
(4) Using a mask, hood or device in theatrical productions, including use in mardi gras celebrations or similar masquerade balls;
(5) Wearing a mask, hood or device prescribed for civil defense drills, exercises or emergencies; or
(6) Wearing a mask, hood or device for the sole purpose of protection from the elements or while participating in a winter sport.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned in the county jail not more than one year, or both fined and imprisoned
Only Louisiana and Minnesota seem to make exceptions based on Religious grounds.
2014/07/02 15:34:17
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
PhantomViper wrote: I'll just leave this here for our American friends and bow out of this discussion:
CALIFORNIA Penal Code Section 182-185
185. Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of: One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense. Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Washington, D.C.)
§ 22-3312.03. Wearing hoods or masks.
(a) No person or persons over 16 years of age, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, shall:
(1) Enter upon, be, or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road highway, or other public way in the District of Columbia;
(2) Enter upon, be, or appear upon or within the public property of the District of Columbia; or
(3) Hold any manner of meeting or demonstration.
FLORIDA Chapter 876 Criminal Anarchy, Treason and other Crimes Against Public Order
876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.--No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.
GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses,16-11-38.
(a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.
(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.
NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks.
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)
VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422:
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
WEST VIRGINIA 61-6-22.
Wearing masks, hoods or face coverings.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, no person, whether in a motor vehicle or otherwise, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby any portion of the face is so covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, may:
(1) Come into or appear upon any walk, alley, street, road, highway or other thoroughfare dedicated to public use;
(2) Come into or appear in any trading area, concourse, waiting room, lobby or foyer open to, used by or frequented by the general public;
(3) Come into or appear upon or within any of the grounds or buildings owned, leased, maintained or operated by the state or any political subdivision thereof;
(4) Ask, request, or demand entrance or admission to the premises, enclosure, dwelling or place of business of any other person within this state; or
(5) Attend or participate in any meeting upon private property of another unless written permission for such meeting has first been obtained from the owner or occupant thereof.
(b) The provisions of this section do not apply to any person:
(1) Under sixteen years of age;
(2) Wearing a traditional holiday costume;
(3) Engaged in a trade or employment where a mask, hood or device is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer;
(4) Using a mask, hood or device in theatrical productions, including use in mardi gras celebrations or similar masquerade balls;
(5) Wearing a mask, hood or device prescribed for civil defense drills, exercises or emergencies; or
(6) Wearing a mask, hood or device for the sole purpose of protection from the elements or while participating in a winter sport.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned in the county jail not more than one year, or both fined and imprisoned
Only Louisiana and Minnesota seem to make exceptions based on Religious grounds.
The key is that the intent is to conceal the identity. A burqa is not intended to do so.
Also, I haven't seen the case law, but I wouldn't want to be the the State Attorney arguing a conviction under those against a person wearing religious garb.
Polonius wrote: This is really fascinating to me, beacuse in my opinion, this wouldn't even be a religious issue in the US, it'd be quickly struck down as a limitation of freedom of expression.
PhantomViper wrote: I'll just leave this here for our American friends and bow out of this discussion:
CALIFORNIA Penal Code Section 182-185
185. Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of: One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense. Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Washington, D.C.)
§ 22-3312.03. Wearing hoods or masks.
(a) No person or persons over 16 years of age, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, shall:
(1) Enter upon, be, or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road highway, or other public way in the District of Columbia;
(2) Enter upon, be, or appear upon or within the public property of the District of Columbia; or
(3) Hold any manner of meeting or demonstration.
FLORIDA Chapter 876 Criminal Anarchy, Treason and other Crimes Against Public Order
876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.--No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.
GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses,16-11-38.
(a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.
(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.
NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks.
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)
VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422:
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
WEST VIRGINIA 61-6-22.
Wearing masks, hoods or face coverings.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, no person, whether in a motor vehicle or otherwise, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby any portion of the face is so covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, may:
(1) Come into or appear upon any walk, alley, street, road, highway or other thoroughfare dedicated to public use;
(2) Come into or appear in any trading area, concourse, waiting room, lobby or foyer open to, used by or frequented by the general public;
(3) Come into or appear upon or within any of the grounds or buildings owned, leased, maintained or operated by the state or any political subdivision thereof;
(4) Ask, request, or demand entrance or admission to the premises, enclosure, dwelling or place of business of any other person within this state; or
(5) Attend or participate in any meeting upon private property of another unless written permission for such meeting has first been obtained from the owner or occupant thereof.
(b) The provisions of this section do not apply to any person:
(1) Under sixteen years of age;
(2) Wearing a traditional holiday costume;
(3) Engaged in a trade or employment where a mask, hood or device is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer;
(4) Using a mask, hood or device in theatrical productions, including use in mardi gras celebrations or similar masquerade balls;
(5) Wearing a mask, hood or device prescribed for civil defense drills, exercises or emergencies; or
(6) Wearing a mask, hood or device for the sole purpose of protection from the elements or while participating in a winter sport.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned in the county jail not more than one year, or both fined and imprisoned
Only Louisiana and Minnesota seem to make exceptions based on Religious grounds.
And many of those explicitly say during a public offense... And almost all of those would lose and need to be re-written if taken to court on religious grounds in the US... Hence why we have courts.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/07/02 15:41:15
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
The key is that the intent is to conceal the identity. A burqa is not intended to do so.
What? A burqa is totally intended to conceal the identity of the wearer. The better to protect men from the uncontrolable lust they would feel if they had to look a woman in the eye.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/07/02 15:42:17
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
The key is that the intent is to conceal the identity. A burqa is not intended to do so.
What? A burqa is totally intended to conceal the identity of the wearer. The better to protect men from the uncontrolable lust they would feel if they had to look a woman in the eye.
No it isn't... And they are not all burqas... There are lots of head coverings for different cultures, which have different origins and needs, but many of them are done to hide a woman's beauty so she can be judged on the merits of her knowledge and character and not be objectified. It has to do with modesty and not being materialistic, not hide her identity.
It is often seen by westerners as a tool utilized by men to control and silence women, but it often is not at all motivated in that way and is not always a symbol of oppression or done as a part of giving up your rights.
Also, head coverings come from lots of different cultures and to lump them all together in the same 'religion sucks' attitude is ignorant as well as it is not always religious.
There are dozens of non-muslim head coverings:
Abaya
Burqa
Burqini
Chador
Cowl
Ghoonghat
Niqāb
Paranja
Purdah
Sari
Tudong
Yashmak
Christian headcovering
Tichel
Tzniut
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/07/02 15:55:15
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
PhantomViper wrote: I'll just leave this here for our American friends and bow out of this discussion:
CALIFORNIA Penal Code Section 182-185
185. Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of: One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense. Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Washington, D.C.)
§ 22-3312.03. Wearing hoods or masks.
(a) No person or persons over 16 years of age, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, shall:
(1) Enter upon, be, or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road highway, or other public way in the District of Columbia;
(2) Enter upon, be, or appear upon or within the public property of the District of Columbia; or
(3) Hold any manner of meeting or demonstration.
(b) The provisions of subsection (a) of this section apply only if the person was wearing the hood, mask, or other device:
(1) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of equal protection of the law or of equal privileges and immunities under the law, or for the purpose of preventing or hindering the constituted authorities of the United States or the District of Columbia from giving or securing for all persons within the District of Columbia equal protection of the law;
(2) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate, or interfere with any person because of his or her exercise of any right secured by federal or District of Columbia laws, or to intimidate any person or any class of persons from exercising any right secured by federal or District of Columbia laws;
(3) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse, or harass any other person;
(4) With the intent to cause another person to fear for his or her personal safety, or, where it is probable that reasonable persons will be put in fear for their personal safety by the defendant's actions, with reckless disregard for that probability; or
(5) While engaged in conduct prohibited by civil or criminal law, with the intent of avoiding identification.
FLORIDA Chapter 876 Criminal Anarchy, Treason and other Crimes Against Public Order
876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.--No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.
876.155 Applicability; ss. 876.12-876.15.—The provisions of ss. 876.12-876.15 apply only if the person was wearing the mask, hood, or other device:
(1) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws or for the purpose of preventing the constituted authorities of this state or any subdivision thereof from, or hindering them in, giving or securing to all persons within this state the equal protection of the laws;
(2) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate, or interfere with any person because of the person’s exercise of any right secured by federal, state, or local law or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of persons from exercising any right secured by federal, state, or local law;
(3) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse, or harass any other person; or
(4) While she or he was engaged in conduct that could reasonably lead to the institution of a civil or criminal proceeding against her or him, with the intent of avoiding identification in such a proceeding.
GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses,16-11-38.
(a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.
(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.
NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
Deals with Loitering, not "wearing a mask anywhere at anytime".
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks. Source?
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)
VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422:
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
WEST VIRGINIA 61-6-22.
Wearing masks, hoods or face coverings.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, no person, whether in a motor vehicle or otherwise, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby any portion of the face is so covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, may:
(1) Come into or appear upon any walk, alley, street, road, highway or other thoroughfare dedicated to public use;
(2) Come into or appear in any trading area, concourse, waiting room, lobby or foyer open to, used by or frequented by the general public;
(3) Come into or appear upon or within any of the grounds or buildings owned, leased, maintained or operated by the state or any political subdivision thereof;
(4) Ask, request, or demand entrance or admission to the premises, enclosure, dwelling or place of business of any other person within this state; or
(5) Attend or participate in any meeting upon private property of another unless written permission for such meeting has first been obtained from the owner or occupant thereof.
(b) The provisions of this section do not apply to any person:
(1) Under sixteen years of age;
(2) Wearing a traditional holiday costume;
(3) Engaged in a trade or employment where a mask, hood or device is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer;
(4) Using a mask, hood or device in theatrical productions, including use in mardi gras celebrations or similar masquerade balls;
(5) Wearing a mask, hood or device prescribed for civil defense drills, exercises or emergencies; or
(6) Wearing a mask, hood or device for the sole purpose of protection from the elements or while participating in a winter sport.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned in the county jail not more than one year, or both fined and imprisoned
Only Louisiana and Minnesota seem to make exceptions based on Religious grounds.
Highlighted the relevant portions. It is interesting that you left out the actual reason for the bans on quite a few of those. And court cases usually always find that the intend requirement also exists for those that don't specifically mention it.
In addition to quoting the laws we also have to take into account any court cases relating to these laws. And many of these laws cannot be enforced because they violate the constitutional expression of Free Speech and Religion.
Pretty much all court cases (and all laws passed that actually think about stuff) make it clear that you cannot conceal your face if the intend is to hide your identity during a crime.
It's not a crime to cover your face, it's a crime to cover your face to hide who you are while committing a crime.
The actual effect of the law is important, too. If I'm a Muslim and believe I have a moral imperative to wear a full veil then am I going to instantly stop caring about it after a lifetime of having done so or am I going to just leave the house far less?
There is a bit in there about making it criminal to force someone to wear a veil (though I would have thought that would be illegal already) and that's cool, but I'm far from convinced that "let's remove women's choice so they don't make the wrong one" is some amazing defense of the rights of women.
2014/07/02 16:06:26
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Polonius wrote: This is really fascinating to me, beacuse in my opinion, this wouldn't even be a religious issue in the US, it'd be quickly struck down as a limitation of freedom of expression.
That is an interesting take on the matter, though the burka is not obviously an expression of political or social views so whether it would be protected is not clear.
Personally I think people who come to settle in a country ought to make an effort at least not to obviously avoid joining in with the local culture. I don't think it can be legislated, though. I dislike the burka for various reasons however I don't think legal sanctions are an effective way of persuading women to abandon it. As noted earlier, the French law failed.
PhantomViper wrote: I'll just leave this here for our American friends and bow out of this discussion:
Spoiler:
CALIFORNIA Penal Code Section 182-185
185. Section One Hundred and Eighty-five. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear any mask, false whiskers, or any personal disguise (whether complete or partial) for the purpose of: One--Evading or escaping discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any public offense. Two--Concealment, flight, or escape, when charged with, arrested for, or convicted of, any public offense. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Washington, D.C.)
§ 22-3312.03. Wearing hoods or masks.
(a) No person or persons over 16 years of age, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, shall:
(1) Enter upon, be, or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road highway, or other public way in the District of Columbia;
(2) Enter upon, be, or appear upon or within the public property of the District of Columbia; or
(3) Hold any manner of meeting or demonstration.
FLORIDA Chapter 876 Criminal Anarchy, Treason and other Crimes Against Public Order
876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.--No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.
GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses,16-11-38.
(a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.
(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.
NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks.
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)
VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422:
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.
WEST VIRGINIA 61-6-22.
Wearing masks, hoods or face coverings.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, no person, whether in a motor vehicle or otherwise, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby any portion of the face is so covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, may:
(1) Come into or appear upon any walk, alley, street, road, highway or other thoroughfare dedicated to public use;
(2) Come into or appear in any trading area, concourse, waiting room, lobby or foyer open to, used by or frequented by the general public;
(3) Come into or appear upon or within any of the grounds or buildings owned, leased, maintained or operated by the state or any political subdivision thereof;
(4) Ask, request, or demand entrance or admission to the premises, enclosure, dwelling or place of business of any other person within this state; or
(5) Attend or participate in any meeting upon private property of another unless written permission for such meeting has first been obtained from the owner or occupant thereof.
(b) The provisions of this section do not apply to any person:
(1) Under sixteen years of age;
(2) Wearing a traditional holiday costume;
(3) Engaged in a trade or employment where a mask, hood or device is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer;
(4) Using a mask, hood or device in theatrical productions, including use in mardi gras celebrations or similar masquerade balls;
(5) Wearing a mask, hood or device prescribed for civil defense drills, exercises or emergencies; or
(6) Wearing a mask, hood or device for the sole purpose of protection from the elements or while participating in a winter sport.
(c) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned in the county jail not more than one year, or both fined and imprisoned
Only Louisiana and Minnesota seem to make exceptions based on Religious grounds.
I was about to note there are quite a few laws on the books about wearing hoods and masks.
Especially hoods.
Especially put into law because of a certain group of guys
who wore hoods
white hoods.
So yea we do this all the time.
Note I am not however, taking a side on this issue, just noting that the US has quite a few interesting laws, some of which are appropriate to the subject.
It has already been adjudicated that, if stopped by the PoPo and on your license you have to show your face if wearing religious headgear.
I thought I heard of a case adjudicated on that you couldn't wear completely concealing headgear on a jury either.
OT but, am I the only person who hears "headgear" and thinks of that horrific teeth braces thingy from Sixteen Candles?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 16:20:54
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2014/07/02 16:17:25
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
We have identification with a picture of our face for a reason.
If the police questioning someone, court of law or anyone taking a driving test cannot have their identity verified it becomes rather problematic holding people accountable.
Just in these forums, people act differently under the mask of anonymity than if their identity can be verified.
"Unfair targeting" is less of a concern than the control of movements of completely unidentifiable people.
If I wanted to rob anyone (or the simple planting a bomb in public) a full body covering is perfect, and maybe on rollerblades: No-one would have a single feature to describe of you (height being suspect with above example). You could possibly even have a backpack and you would just look hunched. Then you could later-on throw off the outfit and voila! Completely different!
Before you say I am being prejudiced, I am just thinking of the outfit for anyone's use to abuse as they see fit. Abuse that a few times and see how much worse those outfits will be viewed.
Maybe the "compromise" is apply black face paint like a reverse geisha, that should meet the requirement.
To make a case against public identity by going further than the religious book specifically states is hard to accept.
I understand this is an acceptable practice in other parts of the world but the unfairness of not being able to see the person's face and potential for abuse is hard to accept in the best of conditions.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/07/02 16:24:33
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
We have identification with a picture of our face for a reason.
If the police questioning someone, court of law or anyone taking a driving test cannot have their identity verified it becomes rather problematic holding people accountable.
Just in these forums, people act differently under the mask of anonymity than if their identity can be verified.
"Unfair targeting" is less of a concern than the control of movements of completely unidentifiable people.
If I wanted to rob anyone (or the simple planting a bomb in public) a full body covering is perfect, and maybe on rollerblades: No-one would have a single feature to describe of you (height being suspect with above example). You could possibly even have a backpack and you would just look hunched. Then you could later-on throw off the outfit and voila! Completely different!
Before you say I am being prejudiced, I am just thinking of the outfit for anyone's use to abuse as they see fit. Abuse that a few times and see how much worse those outfits will be viewed.
Maybe the "compromise" is apply black face paint like a reverse geisha, that should meet the requirement.
To make a case against public identity by going further than the religious book specifically states is hard to accept.
I understand this is an acceptable practice in other parts of the world but the unfairness of not being able to see the person's face and potential for abuse is hard to accept in the best of conditions.
Do you think it's proper to place a paternalistic restriction on what a specific group of women choose to wear because you can imagine a movie plot that involves someone covering up their identity with a veil and committing a crime?
2014/07/02 16:31:29
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
The key is that the intent is to conceal the identity. A burqa is not intended to do so.
What? A burqa is totally intended to conceal the identity of the wearer. The better to protect men from the uncontrolable lust they would feel if they had to look a woman in the eye.
No it isn't... And they are not all burqas... There are lots of head coverings for different cultures, which have different origins and needs, but many of them are done to hide a woman's beauty so she can be judged on the merits of her knowledge and character and not be objectified. It has to do with modesty and not being materialistic, not hide her identity.
It is often seen by westerners as a tool utilized by men to control and silence women, but it often is not at all motivated in that way and is not always a symbol of oppression or done as a part of giving up your rights.
Also, head coverings come from lots of different cultures and to lump them all together in the same 'religion sucks' attitude is ignorant as well as it is not always religious.
There are dozens of non-muslim head coverings:
Abaya
Burqa
Burqini
Chador
Cowl
Ghoonghat
Niqāb
Paranja
Purdah
Sari
Tudong
Yashmak
Christian headcovering
Tichel
Tzniut
I am fully aware that not all head/face coverings worn by Muslim women are burqas. That's why I used the word "burqa" and not one of the many that you listed. Burqas conceal everything. They don't leave the eyes exposed like a Niqab; they cover every part of a woman from view. The purpose of the garment is to conceal a woman's features completely. The purpose is to conceal identity. There may be religious motivations behind it. There may be social motivations behind it. But the fact is that the purpose is concealment. To argue otherwise is wrong.
And I want to point out that I am not arguing for or against this law; I'm merely pointing out that some of the arguments being used on this thread are based on flawed reasoning. An earier poster tried to claim that this law would forbid the wearing of baseball caps. I pointed out that it would do no such thing. You are claiming that a burqa isn't intended to conceal identity. I'm pointing out that that isn't true. I am not saying I am in favor of this law or not. Personally, I'm against it on freedom of expression grounds. The state has a right to ban certain articles of clothing for security or safety reasons, if there is a compelling state interest to do so. Absent a widespread series of crimes or terrorist attacks being committed by Muslim women wearing burquas or Niqabs, there is no compelling state interest to ban the coverings. It's just bigotry worded in a way to hide the bigotry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 16:36:32
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2014/07/02 16:43:03
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Pass a law saying "nobody is allowed to dunk another person underwater", now you are still covering your target group but it's fair "because it applies to everyone".
Perfect example... "Oh, it is criminal child abuse! Really!"
No, it is a harmless religious custom which doesn't need the government involved.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/07/02 16:52:11
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Pass a law saying "nobody is allowed to dunk another person underwater", now you are still covering your target group but it's fair "because it applies to everyone".
Perfect example... "Oh, it is criminal child abuse! Really!"
No, it is a harmless religious custom which doesn't need the government involved.
Been known cases of Muslim men wearing burqa's to conceal their identity
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2014/07/02 17:08:02
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
squidhills wrote: An earier poster tried to claim that this law would forbid the wearing of baseball caps. I pointed out that it would do no such thing.
Defending myself here: I didn't say that this law would forbid the wearing of baseball caps. However, "clothing intended to conceal the face" could be easily and reasonably construed by a police officer to mean that if a kid is wearing a baseball hat too low for the cop's comfort, he is intending to use his clothing to conceal his face...then boom!, give him a fine and shake him down.
In fact, unless something is missing from translation from the BBC article in the OP, I don't think its unlikely that a situation similar to this will occur, if it hasnt already happened yet.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: I thought neo socialist secular progressive europe was a place of understanding and respect.
France has been getting press for xenophobia for quite sometime now. Perhaps its not the land of wine, cheese, and happiness we've been led to beleive.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/02 17:13:04
2014/07/02 17:16:35
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Polonius wrote: This is really fascinating to me, beacuse in my opinion, this wouldn't even be a religious issue in the US, it'd be quickly struck down as a limitation of freedom of expression.
That is an interesting take on the matter, though the burka is not obviously an expression of political or social views so whether it would be protected is not clear.
Well, wearing a Burqa is an expression that you think burqas should be worn. It's self reflexive, but it's something.
More generally, its an expression of cultural identiy. It also certainly announces that such a person is a devout muslin. I could be wrong, but in the Legal definition of Speech, you'd be hard pressed to exclude cultural/religious garb.
Then, of course, you'd have to show that there's a reason to interefere with the practice of religion. Keep in mind, courts have upheld requiring face photos on Government IDs and the like, so there's a bit of a line already there.
Personally I think people who come to settle in a country ought to make an effort at least not to obviously avoid joining in with the local culture. I don't think it can be legislated, though. I dislike the burka for various reasons however I don't think legal sanctions are an effective way of persuading women to abandon it. As noted earlier, the French law failed.
It happens, usually within three generations, here in the US. One reason is that there is no dominate homogenous culture, another is that immigrants are made citizens comparitively simply (And their children born here are automatically so), and a third is that we dont' have the knee jerk sort of expectation of comformity, which allows every person to become an American as they see fit.
2014/07/02 18:27:02
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Do you think it's proper to place a paternalistic restriction on what a specific group of women choose to wear because you can imagine a movie plot that involves someone covering up their identity with a veil and committing a crime?
Movie plot??
You are a gamer correct?
Look at a "rule" and see all the ways it can be broken.
Then look at how to mitigate that loophole so it does not break things.
There is an albeit small number of people who are taking a "guideline" and running with it in all things.
To not allow police to see their face to establish identity or to properly gauge if someone is lying or under the influence (veil will not allow seeing eye dilation), or to be properly identified in court or any number of government requirements, examination in doctor / hospital setting...
So-far seems to be a matter of perspective but a statement of being "protected from the prying eyes of men" is not making me feel warm and fuzzy about this.
I think in summary of these works I would say that to "ban" the face coverings fly in the face of a democratic society and values BUT reasonable means of identification (reveal face to another woman for identity) for any official means of identification is still necessary.
I guess my "gut" feel of these things is the same as talking to someone who keep mirrored glasses on when I talk to them: it feels plane rude, just one min, I need to put my shades on.
It is like a reminder that it is an outfit of emotional armor where we like to think it is no longer necessary and makes it so hard to connect with someone that has so little to give by visible indicators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 18:30:04
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/07/02 18:37:20
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Defending myself here: I didn't say that this law would forbid the wearing of baseball caps. However, "clothing intended to conceal the face" could be easily and reasonably construed by a police officer to mean that if a kid is wearing a baseball hat too low for the cop's comfort, he is intending to use his clothing to conceal his face...then boom!, give him a fine and shake him down.
In fact, unless something is missing from translation from the BBC article in the OP, I don't think its unlikely that a situation similar to this will occur, if it hasnt already happened yet.
The difference is that a baseball cap cannot be used to effectively conceal one's features from view. You can do it from exactly one angle, while leaving your face visible from every other angle. Police could not use this law to shakedown baseball cap wearing people because no reasonable person would find a baseball cap alone, by itself, to be any kind of effective disguise. A baseball cap, in conjunction with dark sunglasses and an oversized fake beard would qualify as an effective concealment, but a baseball cap by itself would not qualify. This law is not going to lead to habedashery-related shakedowns.
In related news, I see a lot of people talking about how this is a security issue, not a religious one. I can grant that security concerns can be valid reasons for banning certain articles of clothing. We have restrictions on face-concealing clothing in many areas of this country for that very reason. However, the law cannot ban certain articles of clothing unless there is evidence that not doing so will lead to a negative impact on the safety of the citizens. We can't ban ten-gallon hats just because they look tacky. We can ban them if a string of violent crimes are committed by men concealing hand grenades inside ten-gallon hats. This law in France is trying to claim that everything that completely conceals a person's face must be banned, but they have failed to demonstrate how face coverings favored by Muslim cultures threaten the safety of French citizens. There have been no string of violent crimes committed by burqa or niqab wearing women in France (as far as I know). They have failed to demonstrate a compelling state interest in banning the garments.
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2014/07/02 18:39:17
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Wearing the burqa in public was not forbidden in France for security reasons (that would be silly, as the examples with baseball caps, hoodies and motorcycle helmets already proved), but because it was, in so many words, deemed offensive.
That Europeans are banning something because it's "offensive" (whatever that's worth in legal terms), while many American posters here are lamenting this intolerable limitation of personal freedoms, is incredibly ironic. As someone who's already stated in other threads that in my opinion, "the right not to be offended by something somebody else does" doesn't exist, I think that this ruling is an outrage and sending the wrong message. Not to mention the ECHR's argument that this is fine because it only affects 2000 people, as if personal rights and freedoms were somehow dependant on a head count.
I agree with "France" that burqas (and niqabs) are misogynistic, sectarian, segregational, and anti-social, and thus inherently offensive. I disagree that anybody should be forbidden to do something just because I or somebody else feels offended by it.
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2014/07/02 18:42:29
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
That Europeans are banning something because it's "offensive" (whatever that's worth in legal terms), while many American posters here are lamenting this intolerable limitation of personal freedoms, is incredibly ironic. As someone who's already stated in other threads that in my opinion, "the right not to be offended by something somebody else does" doesn't exist, I think that this ruling is an outrage and sending the wrong message. Not to mention the ECHR's argument that this is fine because it only affects 2000 people, as if personal rights and freedoms were somehow dependant on a head count.
I agree with "France" that burqas (and niqabs) are misogynistic, sectarian, segregational, and anti-social, and thus inherently offensive. I disagree that anybody should be forbidden to do something just because I or somebody else feels offended by it.
Please, sir, have all of my exalts!
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2014/07/02 18:44:39
Subject: Re:European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
Defending myself here: I didn't say that this law would forbid the wearing of baseball caps. However, "clothing intended to conceal the face" could be easily and reasonably construed by a police officer to mean that if a kid is wearing a baseball hat too low for the cop's comfort, he is intending to use his clothing to conceal his face...then boom!, give him a fine and shake him down.
In fact, unless something is missing from translation from the BBC article in the OP, I don't think its unlikely that a situation similar to this will occur, if it hasnt already happened yet.
The difference is that a baseball cap cannot be used to effectively conceal one's features from view. You can do it from exactly one angle, while leaving your face visible from every other angle.
According to the French law, the clothing doesn't need to be effective at facial concealment, only that it is intended to conceal the face (intended by design or by usage...no differentiation between the two has been presented in this entire thread, despite that I've admitted there may be something lost in translation in the BBC article).
"clothing intended to conceal the face"
When you pass vague laws like this, thats fine I suppose. Just don't be surprised when law enforcement exploits the vagaries.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/02 18:45:40
2014/07/02 18:45:45
Subject: European Court of Human Rights upholds France's full face veil ban
well, and I am mostly playing devils advocate here,
but they can still wear them in private,
just as orgies have to be in private, for the same "offensive" reasons.
personally, my opinion is let em wear whatever they want in public, but if they need to be ID'ed for a license or want to enter a court building, be sworn in, ect, then they need to remove it to be identified properly.
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