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So, throughout 6th, Horrors were pretty damn terrifying. 4D6 Strength 5 AP4 shots with soul-blaze and warpfire was pretty scary. An attached tzHerald with the LoC making their attacks Strength 6 made it even more terrifying.

But now we're in 6th, and now we cast powers via 4+'s on warp-charges. Now, in order to fire 4D6 Strength 5 AP4 shots you need to get at least 3 successful 4+ rolls in order to do anything, which means that if you want any sort of confidence in getting the roll you need you'll probably expend upwards of 6 warp-charges or so.

That's a pretty big WC sink, even in WC-heavy lists (my 1500 point list is averaging 25 WC's a turn, for example, with 4 ML3 heralds and three horror units). The question is, with all of the other useful psychic powers out there that are competing with flickering fire for WC's (such as invisibility, cursed earth and the like), are Horrors worth it for their offensive capabilities now? Are they worth taking for a reason beyond farming WC's for a summoning list?

Discuss.

No.

A big part of why they functioned so well was that not only did the herald make them S6 shots but also provided his own batch of shots and Prescienced the who unit. So the unit was dealing 7d6 S6 shots with rerolls to hit. Very good for about 300 pts

Now you can only flicker fire once from the unit, you need about 2.5 times the warp charges to reliably cast the powers and prescience is WC2. So for the same cost you get about 1/2 the damage and require 12 warp charges to do just that instead of 7 to do prescience and two flicker fires.

There is no way to redeem Pink Horrors. In fact I frankly don't think they're good at summoning either because they'll be stuck sitting in the back lines so their summons will be far away from the action.

That's my sentiment as well, and it's pretty soul-crushing considering they're the only ranged troop in the fething codex.

As far as my lists go, I've got 40 seekers in them with attached ML3 heralds, which is more melee ass-kickery than any man could ever need. Plaguebearers, bloodletters and nurglings offer nothing of value to me. Horrors were great fire-bases though.

Ah well. Time to figure something else out, I guess.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
So, throughout 6th, Horrors were pretty damn terrifying. 4D6 Strength 5 AP4 shots with soul-blaze and warpfire was pretty scary. An attached tzHerald with the LoC making their attacks Strength 6 made it even more terrifying.

But now we're in 6th, and now we cast powers via 4+'s on warp-charges. Now, in order to fire 4D6 Strength 5 AP4 shots you need to get at least 3 successful 4+ rolls in order to do anything, which means that if you want any sort of confidence in getting the roll you need you'll probably expend upwards of 6 warp-charges or so.

That's a pretty big WC sink, even in WC-heavy lists (my 1500 point list is averaging 25 WC's a turn, for example, with 4 ML3 heralds and three horror units). The question is, with all of the other useful psychic powers out there that are competing with flickering fire for WC's (such as invisibility, cursed earth and the like), are Horrors worth it for their offensive capabilities now? Are they worth taking for a reason beyond farming WC's for a summoning list?

Discuss.

Sure, they only got "worse" because others got better. "Demon Factory" lists will be using them as standard builds for sure, and they should be usefull in most any "generalist" list.

 CrownAxe wrote:
No.

A big part of why they functioned so well was that not only did the herald make them S6 shots but also provided his own batch of shots and Prescienced the who unit. So the unit was dealing 7d6 S6 shots with rerolls to hit. Very good for about 300 pts

Now you can only flicker fire once from the unit, you need about 2.5 times the warp charges to reliably cast the powers and prescience is WC2. So for the same cost you get about 1/2 the damage and require 12 warp charges to do just that instead of 7 to do prescience and two flicker fires.

There is no way to redeem Pink Horrors. In fact I frankly don't think they're good at summoning either because they'll be stuck sitting in the back lines so their summons will be far away from the action.

Actually, that's debatable.

The use of the word "unit" in the context of Psykers is, shall we say, loose?

I don't disagree that your interpretation is a valid one, but you would also have to discount the Herald as part of the unit for the purposes of generating warp charge too.

So, a psychic character attached to a psychic unit either disappears for the purposes of the psychic phase (because an IC, once attached to another unit, is considered part of that unit for all rules purposes, and so therefore cannot be counted as a separate unit for counting warp charge, which specifies "Psyker units" not "Psykers") or you ignore the sloppy use of the word unit in the psychic phase section, and take it as "a Psyker" and not "a Psyker unit" cannot manifest the same power more than once per turn.

The idea that a psyker get's 'absorbed' by a brotherhood of psykers unit is asinine. The horrors can manifest their own powers, and so can the herald.

I don't think they've lost all that. It costs more warp charges to get a lvl3 flickerfire off, but you can also attempt to shoot it out of small units of 10 or less, unlike before. They also get a freebee roll on either the tzeench table, or daemonology, in addition to flickerfire, which gives them a lot more versatility. I think they lost a bit as a pure dakka firebase unit, but gained some as a general support unit.
Keep in mind that you don't HAVE to shoot flickerfire at lvl3 all the time. Sometimes it's better to go for a lower, but more reliable, level, especially if youre using warpcharges for other powers. In those turns where you get particularly good charge rolls, or a lot of leftover charges, then charge those suckers up.

In the competitive sense horrors were the best in a lot of ways because they are the most durable. They could easily go to ground to get a better save and reroll 1s.

That function has not changed.

Using a herald to make them put out S6 shots was never competitive. Shooting for heralds in competitive lists was always a last resort.

They're still not terrible. Just use 1 Warp Charge and have a 50 percent chanse to cast a 2D6 ST 5 shot. It's not terrible.

Also, you have to house rule flickering fire as it's like functionally broken right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horrors arguably got better with being able to Access Malefic.

In fact, I rarely cast FFOT at more than 2WC, as the extra resources required to fire it successfully often don't seem to warrant the extra Dakka.

What's happened in 7th for me is that I still run a large unit of Horrors in every list, but I now don't often attach a Herald, as I think their utility has somewhat been undermined by the changes.

I'm finding mobile Tzeentch Heralds, either on Discs or Chariots, are my favourite way of using them since 7th, as with PSAs not counting as "real" shooting, they're really very good at JSJ.

Hm, good take on the JSJ with heralds. Do you run them with any sort of bodyguard on a disc? Or just try to keep them out of LoS with turboboosting?

Last time I checked the YMDC thread, it was decided that you merely had to attempt to cast the power with 3 dice to get the maximum shots, not succeed with 3. The BRB identifies expending a charge as picking how many dice to roll, and harnessing it as succeeding a 4+. Since flicker fire only calls for expending the charges, that makes your life a bit easier. Roll three, only need 4+.

Unless my information is outdated.

Flickerfire is pretty clearly in need of a FAQ regardless of what YMDC 'decides'. The RAW conclusion that they've come to seems pretty far from what the original intent of the power is.

I've just been clearing it with opponents before the game as "I can manifest it as a warpcharge 1, 2, or 3 power, requiring 1, 2, or 3 successes for 2d6, 3d6, or 4d6 shots respectively"

 McGibs wrote:
Hm, good take on the JSJ with heralds. Do you run them with any sort of bodyguard on a disc? Or just try to keep them out of LoS with turboboosting?

At the moment, the disc version is purely hypothetical, as I only run painted units and my Herald on Disc still resides in pieces in a box somewhere.

But, having not been a Screamerstar player, I've found Screamers have become hugely more useful in 7th, their anti armour is more invaluable in a post Smash-nerf, FMC assault-nerf environment, and their speed, durability and mobility makes them a real asset in Maelstrom missions, so I cannot see why I wouldn't run a Disc Herald with a Screamer bodyguard, at least not initially, although I wouldn't blindly keep them together all game, every game.

I have found a Herald on Burning Chariot to be a great "Swiss army gunboat" in my last couple of games. ML3 means you can guarantee yourself all the Tzeentch powers, which means you can select the best tool for the job (or forgo one and grab Prescience instead, but at BS4, it's less important than when they're attached to Horrors to buff them) Throw the Exalted Locus on him and he's a potential threat to anything (I look forward to the game I encounter a mech line and get to fire off Bolt Of Change from a flanking position....)

Deep striking is viable too now. I'm not a fan of any sort of reserves without good reason, but since the change of edition, a Psyker can DS in, contribute the the dice pool, fire off a bunch of PSAs (quite possibly at rear armour, and multiple targets) then, in the case of these two units, boost the hell out of dodge in the Shooting Phase. Not some,thing I've tried yet, but it's certainly something to consider.

Ok, fragile and pointy, but then that sort of speed and utility shouldn't be too cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:
Flickerfire is pretty clearly in need of a FAQ regardless of what YMDC 'decides'. The RAW conclusion that they've come to seems pretty far from what the original intent of the power is.

I've just been clearing it with opponents before the game as "I can manifest it as a warpcharge 1, 2, or 3 power, requiring 1, 2, or 3 successes for 2d6, 3d6, or 4d6 shots respectively"

Agreed, until I read the YMDC thread, I hadn't thought of doing it any way but this, and will continue to do so until an FAQ instructs me differently.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Last time I checked the YMDC thread, it was decided that you merely had to attempt to cast the power with 3 dice to get the maximum shots, not succeed with 3. The BRB identifies expending a charge as picking how many dice to roll, and harnessing it as succeeding a 4+. Since flicker fire only calls for expending the charges, that makes your life a bit easier. Roll three, only need 4+.

Unless my information is outdated.

It was pointed out that you still had to pass a psychic test to see if you successfully cast FF, and since the the WC cost listed on FF is WC1-3 (and there is no rule giving you permision to pick which value you want) you have to get 3 success to meet all 3 potential WC costs to know for sure if you passed the psychic test. But since the special rule prevents you from rolling more then 3 dice to cast Flicker fire you have to get three 4+s on three dice to manifest FF

I think everyone gave up in that thread as there was so much wrong with it, I had started it initially with the whole expenditure etc then someone brought up the we don't have permission to pick what level it's going to be. It's just a wreck right now until a faq. Cause RAW makes it a complete mess.

I think everyone just plays it as if it's a Warp 1 - 3 spell until we get a faq.

It's not the greatest fault in the world, I regularly use it as a level 1 with moderate success.

Well, it looks like NOVA, ETC, and BAO will be FAQing Psykers and Psyker Units to be allowed to cast the same power multiple times, but only one from each source that knows the power. From Nova "To clarify, the term Psyker and Psychic Unit refers to individual Psyker models within a Unit (or of course to the entire unit if it has Brotherhood of Psykers). All Psykers in a Unit are different Psykers and thereby can manifest the same power."

Also, this is how NOVA is FAQing Flickering Fire, "Before attempting to Manifest “Flickering Fire,” you must declare the precise level of the spell you are casting. If you fail to manifest enough warp charges for the declared level, you may not use a lesser number of successes to manifest a lesser level of the power."

I think they are still useful. Access to Malific is definitely one strategy, otherwise Flickering Fire itself is a good power, throw two dice at it with a 75% chance of success. Still is good and kind of balances out the 6th Edition DtW every unit got. They are cheap, generate a Warp Charge, can summon more, can shoot ok, can DS.

They aren't great, but they are a decent troop. IMO Daemonettes are the better CD option right now and the Codex itself is weak in troops but excels in Fast Attack and HQ.

I guess we have to consider the fact that you can summon pinkies for "free" (or at the point cost of herald spam to be fair).
I would almost be broken to daemon factory pink horrors if they were actually good at something.

Pink horrors are in my oppinion garbage now. They cost to much, are to unreliable at casting their power (lets not forget we used to roll at ld10), and with bs3 they are all but useless given the whooping 2-4d6 shots. They are arguably one of the worst units in cc, so flicker fire is all they got.

They're good for certain armies , like if you are going Psyker heavy, yeah they're a good addition.

Would I just take them to take them?

No probably not.

I strictly run them as a WC generating unit and for objective capping / camping. As stated above, their simple ability to generate 1 - 3 WCs depending on their size, for as cheap as they are, going to ground whenever possible, makes them very durable. I tend to roll on the Malefic table with them and see what I get.

Usually a good strategy I've come across now in the dozen or so games I've played, is buying an Icon so I can deepstrike what ever unit I spawn without worry of scattering. I had a small squad of Pink Porrors camp on a single objective all game while subsequently spawning more Pink Horrors and a squad of Daemonettes (When my opponent was foolish enough to get close to me). They held the objective all game. In several of these instances my opponent literally gave up firing weapon on them knowing he couldn't flick them off reliably.

The only strategy that reliably stops this, is going all out on killing the HQ sources of Summons (Usually Heralds and Daemon Princes) If you want to have some fun with shenanigans, LoCs who roll for Malefic power Possession can turn themselves into a LoC again and regain all their wounds (Opponents don't seem to like this) You do however lose any upgrades you might have bought for them (Extra mastery levels, weapons / rewards) but if you want to save him and deny kill points, it's quite fun.

Pretty sure if you sacrifice your LoC for possession, he counts as being killed for killpoints, slay the warlord, first blood, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pink horrors don't have to take flickering fire. Roll up bolt of change and they take on an entirely new battlefield role.

They get FFOT whether you want it or not, due to the Psychic Focus rules.

You then decide whether you roll on Tzeentch of Daemonology for their generated power.

 Badablack wrote:
Pretty sure if you sacrifice your LoC for possession, he counts as being killed for killpoints, slay the warlord, first blood, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pink horrors don't have to take flickering fire. Roll up bolt of change and they take on an entirely new battlefield role.

Do you have a reference for this by chance?

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Pretty sure if you sacrifice your LoC for possession, he counts as being killed for killpoints, slay the warlord, first blood, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pink horrors don't have to take flickering fire. Roll up bolt of change and they take on an entirely new battlefield role.

Do you have a reference for this by chance?

It says so in the Possesion

 CrownAxe wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Pretty sure if you sacrifice your LoC for possession, he counts as being killed for killpoints, slay the warlord, first blood, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pink horrors don't have to take flickering fire. Roll up bolt of change and they take on an entirely new battlefield role.

Do you have a reference for this by chance?

It says so in the Possesion

Interesting. Better not make a LoC my warlord anytime soon!

Yeah but why would you roll again on that chart when you can roll on Malefic and just take Summoning...

Pink Horrors are excellent summoners.

1.Perils of the Warp only affects 1 model
2. They don't lose their spells when they go below 10 they keep all of them, they just lose Warp Charge which basically makes them a LVL 1 sorcerer w/ X wounds when you think about it.
3. They can come "stock" with Flickering Fire and Summoning.

I think Pink Horrors are kinda of bad at summoning

1. They don't generate enough warp charges on there own, you need multiple squads or heralds to attempt a single malefic summon
2. They do nothing but cast psychic powers, and have no guns and terrible assault capabilities. If they fail to cast a power then they have done nothing. So they have to be deployed holding objectives
3. Their summons are done from your deployment zone. All of our summons are assault units (or flamers) so need to get up close to do anything or grab objectives you aren't holding in your deployment zones. If horros are doing the summons, the new units can't do either and will have to spend extra time transversing the field to accomplish something (which gives them more time to get shot at)

 CrownAxe wrote:
I think Pink Horrors are kinda of bad at summoning

1. They don't generate enough warp charges on there own, you need multiple squads or heralds to attempt a single malefic summon
2. They do nothing but cast psychic powers, and have no guns and terrible assault capabilities. If they fail to cast a power then they have done nothing. So they have to be deployed holding objectives
3. Their summons are done from your deployment zone. All of our summons are assault units (or flamers) so need to get up close to do anything or grab objectives you aren't holding in your deployment zones. If horros are doing the summons, the new units can't do either and will have to spend extra time transversing the field to accomplish something (which gives them more time to get shot at)

1. 16 to 20 Generate 3 Warp Charge for the marginally same cost as a Herald. You could say the exact same thing about Heralds in that case. If they suffer 4 Wounds and 4 die, you don't remove all your psychic powers you go down to 2 Warp Charge. They're super awesome at summons. They can cast Sacrifice and lose a guy and gain a warp charge. Yeah you need more than one unit same with anything else if your doing a psychic heavy army.

2. So do Heralds of Tzeentch? I mean this is the same argument for Heralds. They may be a little more maneuverable but that's the whole point of a Pink Horrors.

3. ??? I am unclear on what you mean by this. Because they can deepstrike onto objectives, and summon? Unclear on some issues or maybe a misunderstand? Are you implying that they can only summon units in your deployment zone?

Transversing the field is not a issue you can summon out to 12, hit auto if you have a icon or scatter 1d6 then run if you are Daemonettes, etc.. etc.. Turbo boost etc.... Transversingthe field is not a issue at all with what they can possibly summon.

Like I said I wouldn't take them if I wasn't running a Warp Charge heavy army, but otherwise I'd take them. Also, if you get Sacrifice you can get like 2 to 4 Slaanesh Chariots with them and other crazy stuff. They're a really good unit and the only unit really if you are going Warp Charge heavy.

They're a really great summoning unit if that's what your going for.

1. You need 7+ warp charges to cast a malefic summoning reliably. A single horror squad only generates 3 warp charges so you need multiple squads and/or heralds to attempt a single psychic power
2. Yes which is why both suck now. Heralds are at least the cheapest WC generator at 3 WCs for just under 100 pts
3. Conjurations require that you deep strike the summon within x" of the psyker summoning them. Since Horrors are going to just sit in your deployment zone (since holding an objective is all they can do) you have to deep strike your conjured units within 12" of your horror squads (or 6" if its a herald) basically meaning they deep striked into your deployment zone away from where you need your new unit.

Objectives won't always be in your deployment zone and most of the stuff you can summon is pretty fast. It's really not the huge issue your making it out to be.

I mean I play Daemon Bomb with them anyway so your mileage may vary.

The maximum Warp Charge you can get in a Standard FOC out of just your HQ is 16 ( Fatewaver, 4 Heralds) with Daemon Princes in the HS another 9. The minimum cost for that by the way is like 1600 points. Where as Fateweaver + 4 Heralds + 4 Squads of 12 to 14 will be around 1100 to 1200. Then you can take more gak. They're point efficient at lower levels in the Warp Charge of 1 to 2 ,but not at the Level 3 level as it's kind of inefficient as your getting less spells actually.

Uh basically you get 2 Spells, if your never going to lose . You'll always have at least 1 Warp Charge unless the squad is wiped out.

I dunno I did the math awhile back, sweet spot is 14. It's in the Dameonlogy problem thread.

It's super point efficient they're good at generating warp charge, should you take like 900 points of them? No. Should you take two to 3 squads if your playing a Daemon Bomb army? Yes.

I mean your welcome to read up on the Daemon Summoning armies that use them. Everyone uses them in their armies. I wouldn't use them though if I was playing anything else.

If Heralds sucked people wouldn't use them. Everyone got hit with the nerf of the Psychic Phase. Tzeentch army is one of the few that can go Warp Charge heavy.

I would just like to say that "Reliable" success from casting any of the summoning abilities from the Malefic tree has a decent success rate with less than 7 dice... I've only ever been using 6 MAX per WC3 summon, never had a REAL issue, it either goes off or it doesn't. You can play the number games all you want with that notion, but if you continuously waste that 1 or 2 dice just to get a few % extra chance... Well, I've never done it lol So I can't say it's ever helped

I only really fail summons a few times an entire game. I mean, when running 4 Heralds of Tzeentch, 3 Daemon Princes and 2 - 4 squads of Pink Horrors (16) for 3 WCs a piece, you have 27-33 WC points + D6. Now obviously not every group is going to be casting summons, nor should it ever be expected that even half succeed, but most of the time, they tend to. Rolling a 50% on each dice is simple. 4+ aren't hard to get with 5-6 dice.

In short, I still love my Pink Horrors <3