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I used to be a christian.
Then I learned about what the Germans and later the Russians did to my country. I relaised I cannot worship an entity that would allow such tings to happen. And the free will thing dosent work for me.

Daemonhammer wrote:
I used to be a christian.
Then I learned about what the Germans and later the Russians did to my country. I relaised I cannot worship an entity that would allow such tings to happen. And the free will thing dosent work for me.

Ireland? When did the Russians invade that? I know Russians invaded a lot of places, but I can't seem to remember Ireland. Wasn't it the English (with Dutch leadership ) who invaded Ireland and screwed it over?
Or are you Polish? Poland is the first country I can think of that was invaded by both Germans and Russians (as if an invasion by one major world power was not yet enough...)

I think his family ended up in Ireland from eastern Europe. Its happening a lot nowadays.

Did not watch Prometheus did you

I am Polish yes. Just because I have a flag near my picture dosent mean its where I come from. Something people should consider since USA is made up entirely of foreigners.

Daemonhammer wrote:
I am Polish yes. Just because I have a flag near my picture dosent mean its where I come from. Something people should consider since USA is made up entirely of foreigners.

Legal and Illegal. Get it right Citizen. Oh and pick up that can and stay off Frazz lawn

 Orlanth wrote:
I think his family ended up in Ireland from eastern Europe. Its happening a lot nowadays.

The thing I talked about is most of the reason many eastern Europeans emigrate but thats not really relevant.

Daemonhammer wrote:
I am Polish yes. Just because I have a flag near my picture dosent mean its where I come from. Something people should consider since USA is made up entirely of foreigners.

I already thought so, that is why I ask. My picture also doesn't show where I come from (well, only half). I am Russian, from Crimea. I also want to state that I always feel really bad about the Russians having screwed the Poles so badly. You fought so bravely against the Germans, despite all the horrible odds, and than in the end the Red Army moves in and turns Poland into a puppet state. That was a really nasty betrayal. Poles are a great people, you did not deserve that.
But I guess we are moving off-topic now...

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Daemonhammer wrote:
I am Polish yes. Just because I have a flag near my picture dosent mean its where I come from. Something people should consider since USA is made up entirely of foreigners.

I already thought so, that is why I ask. My picture also doesn't show where I come from (well, only half). I am Russian, from Crimea. I also want to state that I always feel really bad about the Russians having screwed the Poles so badly. You fought so bravely against the Germans, despite all the horrible odds, and than in the end the Red Army moves in and turns Poland into a puppet state. That was a really nasty betrayal. Poles are a great people, you did not deserve that.
But I guess we are moving off-topic now...

Well its nice to see that someone understands. But I suppose if anyone would it would be another eastern European . From that first response I tougt for a minute you were mocking me.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

Somebody's been copypasting Anselm from Wikipedia.

Regardless, Kant, Aquinas & Hume would like a word....

 Orlanth wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

I would like to accept the above theology, but I must admit it looks too much it is pulling a fast one.

I think it's an example of "Begging the question". If you accept his first point, it is a convincing proof God exists. However, his first point is based off the assumption that God exists (as a purely fictional being is not "...a being than which no greater can be conceived"- see his 3rd point). His argument will affirm convictions that God exists, if one believed in God to begin with. However, if one does not believe in God to begin with, the argument fails to convince. Hence it begs the question.

 Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

Somebody's been copypasting Anselm from Wikipedia.

Regardless, Kant, Aquinas & Hume would like a word....

Yup, I was wondering if anyone would recognise it. The knowledge of the Dakka community really amazes me at times.

Daemonhammer wrote:
Well its nice to see that someone understands. But I suppose if anyone would it would be another eastern European . From that first response I tougt for a minute you were mocking me.

Nah, I've met too many awesome Poles for me to be able to mock their people.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

Somebody's been copypasting Anselm from Wikipedia.

Regardless, Kant, Aquinas & Hume would like a word....

Yup, I was wondering if anyone would recognise it. The knowledge of the Dakka community really amazes me at times.

Because dakka is awesome
We shouod start our own religion based around this website tbh.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I think it's an example of "Begging the question". If you accept his first point, it is a convincing proof God exists. However, his first point is based off the assumption that God exists (as a purely fictional being is not "...a being than which no greater can be conceived"- see his 3rd point). His argument will affirm convictions that God exists, if one believed in God to begin with. However, if one does not believe in God to begin with, the argument fails to convince. Hence it begs the question.

It's also a terrible argument because of point #4: if god is a being so great that it is beyond human understanding then how can you make the subjective judgement that existing in reality improves the greatness of a being?

To quote Captain Jean-Luc Picard:
"Any being sufficently advanced could be considered a god in the eyes of those less advanced."

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

Somebody's been copypasting Anselm from Wikipedia.

Regardless, Kant, Aquinas & Hume would like a word....

Yup, I was wondering if anyone would recognise it. The knowledge of the Dakka community really amazes me at times.

I took a Philosophy A Level about seven years ago, and covered the various ontological arguments pretty comprehensively. You're doing something similar now I presume?

God exists because I had a nightmare...oh wait, no that was just me writing the book of revelations.

Daemonhammer wrote:
I used to be a christian.
Then I learned about what the Germans and later the Russians did to my country. I relaised I cannot worship an entity that would allow such tings to happen. And the free will thing dosent work for me.

There are some truly awful things in the world that people do to each other, but a God that would enslave you is far worse.

 hughpower wrote:
I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I don’t know how many birds I saw. Were they a definite or an indefinite number? This problem involves the question of the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because how many birds I saw is known to God. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because nobody was able to take count. In this case, I saw fewer than ten birds (let’s say) and more than one; but I did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, but not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That number, as a whole number, is inconceivable. Therefore, God exists.

when i saw the numbers the first thing that came to mind was 8 6 7 5 3 0 9

While I believe in God 100%, this rationale sounds like the "vision" created through the use of shrooms. In a similar vein, I'd like to posit that cake+hydrogen peroxide=Proof of God. Because...well, honestly, if I need to explain my math after that first post, then it's all of you that need help.

 ironicsilence wrote:

 hughpower wrote:
I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I don’t know how many birds I saw. Were they a definite or an indefinite number? This problem involves the question of the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because how many birds I saw is known to God. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because nobody was able to take count. In this case, I saw fewer than ten birds (let’s say) and more than one; but I did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, but not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That number, as a whole number, is inconceivable. Therefore, God exists.

when i saw the numbers the first thing that came to mind was 8 6 7 5 3 0 9

Jenny?

Regardless, God cannot be proved to exist (or not) Douglas Adams proved that in his brilliant HHGTTG series.

I used to not believe in any gods. I still don't worship any.

However, I now believe every god (no matter the religion) is real simply if things happen in the real world based upon the actions people take in the name of that god, for good or evil. I mean, whether there is an intangible thing watching down upon you and judging you for your actions doesn't affect me quite like your actions do. But you wouldn't act that way if you didn't believe in a god. Belief begets action, thus there is power in belief. It is in that power that your god is real. The only thing believers get wrong is the causality. No god created us, we created them by acting as their agents.

That soup kitchen being run by a church is real because of a god. Holy wars are also actions because of a god, making it exactly as real.

The OP's argument is still weak sauce.

Personally I like to make faith fun. That's why I'm an ardent follower of Sanguine; Daedric Prince of Hard Partying

I don't see what your inability to count some imaginary birds has to do with god. It just suggests you simply lack the time or ability to count them.

If thinking everything with a definite number that isn't knowable means god must exist, then quantum physics will blow your mind. Is OP one of these quantum physics proves god people?

How about I roll a D6, it can only result in one of six numbers face up. I roll it in a sealed box, I then destroy the box. No one will ever know that number except an omnipotent being. Thus God exists. QED.

Unless it's in regards to some manner of transhumanist, singularity inspired zeitgeist I would be perfectly happy if no one entered into any sort of religious debate ever again on the internet.

 Dust wrote:
Unless it's in regards to some manner of transhumanist, singularity inspired zeitgeist I would be perfectly happy if no one entered into any sort of religious debate ever again on the internet.

Excuse me but it's my duty to ensure that people are enlightened about the many joys and virtues of Kronkism.

When you realize most of Christianity's beliefs, symbols, religious days and customs were just taken from other religions at the time by their current rulers to get them to conform. It all starts to fall apart.

Also council of Nicea anyone?

 Vash108 wrote:


Also council of Nicea anyone?

Which one? The cool first one, or the lame second one? Cause honestly, setting the framework for Canon Law is so much more exciting than telling the Emperor he was being a douche bag for banning holy icons.

The first. If the bible was truly gods words, who are they to pick and choose what goes in it.

 hughpower wrote:
I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I don’t know how many birds I saw. Were they a definite or an indefinite number? This problem involves the question of the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because how many birds I saw is known to God. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because nobody was able to take count. In this case, I saw fewer than ten birds (let’s say) and more than one; but I did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, but not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That number, as a whole number, is inconceivable. Therefore, God exists.

Forgive me for being a bit skeptical, but it means you saw a few birds when you closed your eyes and didn't count them fast enough.