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So, word on the street is that we'll be getting Killa Kans in the new 7th edition box set, which means that I'll soon be coming into possession of probably around 6 Killa Kans, a unit I've never used before.

Now the question is, what's the best way to run them? In terms of weapon loadout, I originally thought Grotzookas (because two S6 Blasts for 5pts!) or Skorchas (because AP2 CCW deals with elite stuff, Skorchas deal with hordes) but then I thought is it not better to take advantage of the Kans' better BS and use either Rokkits (which are free) or KMBs, for that nice AP2? Also, are Grot Riggers likely to be worth it? I thought no, but...

And also, how do we support them? Are they best run in a unit of 6 or two units of 3? What is best run alongside them? I did think about a KFF Mek chilling behind them, but wasn't sure whether it was worth actually protecting the Kans when I could be protecting something else instead.

Thoughts, Dakka?

Biggest problem kans have (especially with skorchas!) is that if a group of 6 gets 2 kans removed, they have just under a 50% chance they're snap firing. Every kan after that causes the same check.

With as competitive as heavy support is in our codex, run 6 or run none, IMO. Riggers are useless on a AV10 walker with 2 HP, they'll be getting glanced to death en masse. Due to the high likelihood of shakens, I'm inclined to run big shootas or rokkits. KMBs are just not worth the gets hot when rokkits are readily available in my mind.

The nerf to their PK hurts a lot, too. STR7 AP2 is just not warm and fuzzy. I'm really struggling to find a dedicated role for them other than, "hope my opponent shoots them instead of my other units".

They are garbage. One of the worst units I have seen in recent memory, alongside the Haruspex. As katfude said, you'll just have to trust in hope that they might get something done, but at only str7 with WS2 and slow movement + some pretty lackluster shooting for their points they are unlikely to ever really contribute much unless your opponent allows them to do so.

I think the WS 2 hurts the most. I mean the str loss sucks but its not the end of the world. They can carve up heavy infantry still...if they hit. Your most likely hitting on 4s but often hitting on 5s against the things that matter. With 2/3 attacks.. its just not an efficient use of points. The WS 2 was not as much of an issue when they were hitting like rail guns in cc! I was ok with them hitting less often but when they did.. they krumped.

I have a guy at my shop that loves the dread mob formation (2x6 killa Kanz). Every game I've watched, the Kanz are gone by turn 2.

I personally think running Kanz as deff dreads would be much better.

Their price stayed about level, their attacks got weaker, and now they take psuedo-leadership. The only buff we got was an increased squad size, allowing you to have more models and more shots per squad... But honestly who would take them? They're an expensive generalist squad who can't do anything well. Their shooting is pretty much entirely outclassed by Big Gunz, their melee is officially pathetic, and their durability is unimpressive. Not to mention, it costs well over 100 dollars to take a full squad.
My big problem is that they lost S8. Sure, S10 is better, but I don't need them to rip apart Vehicles and wound Wraightknights on 2s. One thing I do demand, though, is Instant Death. Currently, the only people we're ID'ing don't have enough toughness to be surviveable in Close Combat anyways. The ability to ID Toughness 4 and wound T6 on 2+ is huge. Without it, Killa Kans become innefective and unable to kill important targets in Close Combat. They can still shred light infantry with armor, like Space Marines, but Meganobz will do the same job better, cheaper. (And Meganobz are generally hardier against all but AP2.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Their price stayed about level, their attacks got weaker, and now they take psuedo-leadership. The only buff we got was an increased squad size, allowing you to have more models and more shots per squad... But honestly who would take them? They're an expensive generalist squad who can't do anything well. Their shooting is pretty much entirely outclassed by Big Gunz, their melee is officially pathetic, and their durability is unimpressive. Not to mention, it costs well over 100 dollars to take a full squad.
My big problem is that they lost S8. Sure, S10 is better, but I don't need them to rip apart Vehicles and wound Wraightknights on 2s. One thing I do demand, though, is Instant Death. Currently, the only people we're ID'ing don't have enough toughness to be surviveable in Close Combat anyways. The ability to ID Toughness 4 and wound T6 on 2+ is huge. Without it, Killa Kans become innefective and unable to kill important targets in Close Combat. They can still shred light infantry with armor, like Space Marines, but Meganobz will do the same job better, cheaper. (And Meganobz are generally hardier against all but AP2.

It was depressing they didn't get a buff in any sense :/
was really looking foreward to a dread mob. Even the formation isn't that great. its roughly 1500 pts and seems like a lot of points in too few models. The double Naught's is where I feel that the points get sunk. 310 points for the KFF morka. so 600 points and your not getting a huge amount of fire power for that price.

Im looking at running a KFF morka alongside some dreads. As I really like dreads I like Kanz even more but just cant afford to disadvantage myself so far :/ Might bring 1 unit of 3 or 4 Just for the sake of the little boy inside me.

My current plan:
Void shield generator - modelled as some orky contraption that has been wheeled onto the battlefield
Bunker with void upgrade - Acts as a AV14 bunker for stacking my lootas in and on top of. Has a AV12 shield alongside the generators shields, those lootas ain't gona be running off any time soon!
KFF morka
2-3 dreads
Some Mek guns (most likely lobbas)
lootas

and then il fill out the rest dependant on what id like. Lots of buggies could be fun. having them all sat under the void shield generator and KFF bubble, letting my dreads close the gap for CC, my morka to plod along and crack some AV, while the Kanz grotzooka stuff, all nicely bubble wrapped in that AV12 So should they fail to drop those shields all that small arms fire will be useless against those AV10 buggies/kanz

I remember having a deff dread nearby helps their pseudo ld check. Is that a thing or did I imagine things?

The biggest issue I have with kanz, even back in 6th, is that half the Imperium of Man has a bunch of krak grenades lying around, which hit the kanz on a 3+ due to their low weapon skill. Charging a trio of kanz into a unit of space marine scouts, just to lose them all to krak grenades is what made me shelf them.

Their leadership is pretty unlikely until theyre almost gone anyway.

Its a 3+ by default, 3 or more Kans in the unit adds +1 and a Deffdredd within 6" adds another. If you have 3 or more kans and a deffdredd you are immune to this roll regardless.
Even without the dredd, unti theyre wittled down to almost nothing (1-2 models) its a 2+ to PASS this test.

Im more pissed that they added it because thats more useless junk i need to spend time rolling dice for. My biggest complaint about orks have always been they cause long games even in the old dex - now its WAY worse with mob rule, almost no fearless, and kans.
My games are usually 2k pts and it takes me about 3hrs to play as Tau or olddex Orks. It took me FOUR hours my 4 newdex games ive played, and i wasnt constantly reffing the book either (actually only looked to doublecheck weirdboy or big mek melee strengths)

 ashikenshin wrote:
I remember having a deff dread nearby helps their pseudo ld check. Is that a thing or did I imagine things?

The leadership check is not even their biggest problem/nerf. but yes if they take 25% causalities in a turn they need to roll a d6. on a 1 or 2 they fail. if there are more then 3 kans its a 2+ or if there is a deff dread within 6"

mrfantastical wrote:
I have a guy at my shop that loves the dread mob formation (2x6 killa Kanz). Every game I've watched, the Kanz are gone by turn 2.

I personally think running Kanz as deff dreads would be much better.

any conversion ideas??

I have not seen the new codex, but I used to like Killa Kanz, with a Def Dread, the Dred works as a bullet magnet. Do Big Meks still let Def Dreads be Troops? That would rawk with Battle Forged.

So since 7th came out in have played 8 games with my orks, 3 with old codex 5 with the new. I faced Salamanders 5 times, 2 eldar and a blood angel.

So far my experience with them has been the same each game. They fulfill the same battle field roll in both new and old codex. They are still good medium vehicle hunters at range ( I run all rokkits) and they tear up and vehicle they touch even with the S7 and AP2 klaws.

They work well if you stick to cover or make use of the 5++ from the morkanaught. I have also yet to fail the panic test in all 8 games. Yes they have been wiped out in a most the games but they did their job.

I like to think of the Kans as the fodder for a dread style mob. They just pump out shots on the move into combat. I am seriously considering going full unbound and running a whole army of Dreads and Kans just walk up the middle shooting stuff until I get into combat. 4 Squads of 6x Kans with Rokkits and 10x Dreads all with basic load out is 2000pts exactly. Thats 34 Walkers to deal with. I would think some of them should make it into combat.

pinecone77 wrote:
I have not seen the new codex, but I used to like Killa Kanz, with a Def Dread, the Dred works as a bullet magnet. Do Big Meks still let Def Dreads be Troops? That would rawk with Battle Forged.

Sadly, there are no 'counts as troops' options at all in this codex. Just another reason why Nobs aren't as great as they used to be, either. But that's a different thread.

Killa Kanz in Dread Mob lists pretty much do what normal grotz do for Orks in footslogging, either camp on an objective or screen for your other Ork vehicles by soaking up firepower.

In all my games so far with the Kan Wall (with Morkanaught and Deff Dread support of course) they've been maimed and shot to pieces but they always manage to do a significant amount of damage first with their grotzookas or KMB before they go and fall apart. Best of all is when the opponent underestimates them in CC and charges in. Say what you want but even hitting on 3's having to roll 5's to glance isn't as easy as it seems on paper, especially with only often 6-8 krak grenade attacks from most MEQ units since they get inevitably whittled down from Kan fire. Short of facing WS5 units the Kanz typically mop up MEQ units fairly quickly.

So far I've been running them in mobz of three simply because I don't have enough models yet to max them out, with 2 mobs of 3 armed with Rokkits or KMB and the other one mob armed with Grotzookas. A lot of the Kan Wall also has to do with how you properly position the Kanz so they can get coverage (as in legitimate blocked LoS viewpoint) from terrain so as to prevent early game firepower from touching them until they're in position and cover the gaps as well as you can with the KFF, often through the Morkanaut. I keep the Deff Dreadz behind them to keep their morale up for their tests and as a counter-charge unit in case any bikers/fast unit or whatnot get too cheeky with meltas/plasma weaponry and let them loose on them.

They've been awesome in 5. Mediocre in 6. Bad in 7 with the new dex.

Ok, not much love for the Kanz, but, if I ran them it sounds like Rokkits would be the best option. Can still fire even if I have to snap shot (thanks for pointing that out, whoever it was!), cheap and increases their ability to take on medium-AV vehicles. And 6 a squad is best.

Someone mentioned converting them into a Deff Dread(s), are Deff Dreads significantly better? And how would you run them? I was thinking two Skorchas and Grot Riggers, putting you exactly on 100pts. It's cheap but my issue is that it's still liable to go down to a single lascannon shot, which admittedly was something I thought would make Kanz a better choice.

 The Shadow wrote:
Ok, not much love for the Kanz, but, if I ran them it sounds like Rokkits would be the best option. Can still fire even if I have to snap shot (thanks for pointing that out, whoever it was!), cheap and increases their ability to take on medium-AV vehicles. And 6 a squad is best.

Someone mentioned converting them into a Deff Dread(s), are Deff Dreads significantly better? And how would you run them? I was thinking two Skorchas and Grot Riggers, putting you exactly on 100pts. It's cheap but my issue is that it's still liable to go down to a single lascannon shot, which admittedly was something I thought would make Kanz a better choice.

hmm not a massive fan of the idea of rokkit kanz.
There single shot at BS3, so hitting on 4+. in a max unit of 6, thats 3 hits. Str 8, only 1 will glance/pen. Which for a 300+ pts unit is way too much imo.
If I wanted rokkits id take buggies, for 25 pts I get BS2, twin linked. Which is actually better than BS3. They dont have any combat potency, but if its AV hunting from range you want then buggies seem far superior, as by the time your kans are close enough to assault a tank then more than likely you wanted it dead a turn or two ago. Which can be achieved by rokkit buggies or flanking deffkoptas.

I'd only take kanz for grotzooka's.
The BS3 along with blast means that your way more effective with your hit output. With grotzooka's you can move, run T1, then T2 your in range to start blasting the crap out of some MEQ or blob units. If you get the panic rule, its simply you can't shoot and instead you can elect to run (as kanz are still potent in combat), then following turn you can more than likely both shoot and charge your intended target. I think grotzooka's is the best loadout, as in general the Kan is a versatile unit and while not the ultra-competitive I think alongside a morka and some dreads they become potent.


Dreads:
well lets assume your running the formation, so you have 3 dreads and 9 kanz and 2 morka's. Yeh a single lascannon could fell your dread. But does your opponent carry many single las cannons? enough to cover 3 dreads? not to mention your 2 morka's. Like someone mentioned, in a vacuum alot of these models have glaring weaknesses. But if your running 3 dreads straight at the enemy all with 2x scorchas, you will hopefully get a couple into CC if not, then by that point your kanz or morka's should have had time to crush most of the bigger stuff

Again overall the dread isn't the best choice. But when used with a conjunction of other walkers I think they will perform better than expected. Plus, who doesn't like giant robots tearing up the place?!

I just had the best idea. I'll just glue six kanz to each other and call them a Morkanaut

 Jidmah wrote:
I just had the best idea. I'll just glue six kanz to each other and call them a Morkanaut

be like power rangers, once they've finished the ground fight, bad guy wacks out the classic 'enlarge me' scroll, then all the kanz power up and form a megakan... or a morka...

IMHO, the best use of Kans is as a wall.

Remember that you can shoot through gaps between models, but you can't shoot through models in base-to-base. They block LOS completely.

So, instead of spreading the Kans out, you put them abreast and march upfield, Redcoat style, with a KFF behind them for that loverly 5++ save. The squishy boyz go behind 'em.

Kans, don't forget, can also run, so it's fine to rip off the ranged weapons for Skorchas, since they'll just be running each turn until you're close enough to spread out and let boyz charge through.

Don't sweat the dakka, let 'em be your bulletproof vests, and enjoy gettin' stuck in.

I've been looking at kanz hard since the codex came out. I really want them to work, but they just don't, which sucks now that they finally have an awesome model.

With this current codex there are too many units that can serve the same roll as kanz but do it better. With the cowardly grots rules your pushed to take larger units which just become prohibitively expensive really quickly.

Wakshaani wrote:

Remember that you can shoot through gaps between models, but you can't shoot through models in base-to-base. They block LOS completely.

Is this true? I thought True LOS allows you to shoot at whatever you can see, with no abstractions? Or did this change in 7th?

GorillaWarfare wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

Remember that you can shoot through gaps between models, but you can't shoot through models in base-to-base. They block LOS completely.

Is this true? I thought True LOS allows you to shoot at whatever you can see, with no abstractions? Or did this change in 7th?

My eyebrow is also significantly raised. I don't think this is the case.

Vehicle squadrons ignore each other for line of sight, so kanz won't get in each others way. And putting AV11 near boyz I think is asking for them to explode lol

I just played a 1500 tournament this past sunday. And I have to say Morkanaught+dredd+6 kanz is one rock hard force. The one time they didn't do much was verse the wave serpeant heavy eldar. They didn't die he just decided after a turn of shooting at them and doing nothing but taking out a single kan, he would just stay away with his mobility and avoid them up close.

The other 2 games they took a a lot fire and did damage. The morkanuaght survived all 3 games, making its points back. The baby dredds with pappa stompy as I call them are great at drawing a lot of fire from the boyz.

Murrdox wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

Remember that you can shoot through gaps between models, but you can't shoot through models in base-to-base. They block LOS completely.

Is this true? I thought True LOS allows you to shoot at whatever you can see, with no abstractions? Or did this change in 7th?

My eyebrow is also significantly raised. I don't think this is the case.

At least not in Warhammer 40k. As long as you can see any part of a model, you can shoot it. The awesome wall would not no more than provide 5+ cover.

Killa Kans might be the worst unit in the codex at this point. There's nothing they do that something else doesn't do better for a comparable price tag. My ideal tactics for this unit would be not to take them at all!

You need long range BS3 fire support with high strength, blasts, or AP2? Mek guns have you covered. They're arguably harder to kill, and shoot just as well, for cheaper. Lootas don't have as many options and lack BS3, but have better range, volume of fire, and decent S.

You need AP2 high-strength close combat weapons? Meganobs are more durable than kans and can take a dedicated transport to make them much faster. Deff dreads can fill this role also, since they have higher strength attacks with better WS and potentially even more attacks with extra klaws. And once again, both are cheaper options points-wise.

You need an AV screen for your troops? Trukks will block LOS better, can be taken as dedicated transports to avoid using up Fast Attack slots, and are significantly cheaper. They also have a slight chance to avoid explosions with ramshackle. Dreads are also able to fill this role slightly better with AV12 and a larger model. Although not a cheaper option necessarily, battlewagons are the Orks' toughest vehicle and best LOS blocker by far.

TL;DR: Kans are a bit of not-alright. Skip them.

Yeah, it sounds like the Kanz aren't going to see much use and, for the record, I probably won't be using the Dread mob formation, since there's no real reason I'd want to invest in more models I don't have, that aren't coming from the new starter set.

So Deff Dreads. Two Skorchas, or two extra Klaws? (How many attacks would two extra klaws get me? One or two?)

 Jambles wrote:
Killa Kans might be the worst unit in the codex at this point. There's nothing they do that something else doesn't do better for a comparable price tag. My ideal tactics for this unit would be not to take them at all!

You need long range BS3 fire support with high strength, blasts, or AP2? Mek guns have you covered. They're arguably harder to kill, and shoot just as well, for cheaper. Lootas don't have as many options and lack BS3, but have better range, volume of fire, and decent S.

You need AP2 high-strength close combat weapons? Meganobs are more durable than kans and can take a dedicated transport to make them much faster. Deff dreads can fill this role also, since they have higher strength attacks with better WS and potentially even more attacks with extra klaws. And once again, both are cheaper options points-wise.

You need an AV screen for your troops? Trukks will block LOS better, can be taken as dedicated transports to avoid using up Fast Attack slots, and are significantly cheaper. They also have a slight chance to avoid explosions with ramshackle. Dreads are also able to fill this role slightly better with AV12 and a larger model. Although not a cheaper option necessarily, battlewagons are the Orks' toughest vehicle and best LOS blocker by far.

TL;DR: Kans are a bit of not-alright. Skip them.

Mek guns are good, but have issues. Cant move and shoot, cant cc, have a ld of 5 with no character, get chewed up by poison/snipers, top range 36 inches. Lootas also decent not as good in cc , kill 4 and a morale check. Also cant move or shoot. Kanz I feel beat both on versatility and can be used as a screen for other units/ vehicles.

Meganobs are pricey once you throw in a bw, and if that get popped early they are on foot with no real range compared to kanz. They also not immune to S4 or less fire an can bbe bolted down. 2 S8 power fist hits wound on a 2+ killing 2, 2 S8 power fist vs a kan pen on a 4+ and may not kill. So i don't think mega nobs are more durable.

2 kans with rokkits = 1 dredd with 2 ccw. Kanz have rokkit and 1 more HP. Kanz hit most things on 4+ and dredds occasionally hit on a 3+ depending on what they are fighting. They both rip up vechiles.

Trukks would make an awefull screen in my opionin. An armor 10 open topped vehicle next to boyz. Begging to explode killing boys in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also argue the Morkanaught is tougher than the battlewagon and block LOS just as good and hands out a 5++.