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If your meta has a lot of ruins that give a 4+ cover for sticking your toe in it kans might be ok. 12 grotzooka shots is a lot of s6 against infantry at a decent range. Otherwise the kans would just have to lurk there and wait to charge anything that wanders too close to other dakka units.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Killa Kans might be the worst unit in the codex at this point. There's nothing they do that something else doesn't do better for a comparable price tag. My ideal tactics for this unit would be not to take them at all!

You need long range BS3 fire support with high strength, blasts, or AP2? Mek guns have you covered. They're arguably harder to kill, and shoot just as well, for cheaper. Lootas don't have as many options and lack BS3, but have better range, volume of fire, and decent S.

You need AP2 high-strength close combat weapons? Meganobs are more durable than kans and can take a dedicated transport to make them much faster. Deff dreads can fill this role also, since they have higher strength attacks with better WS and potentially even more attacks with extra klaws. And once again, both are cheaper options points-wise.

You need an AV screen for your troops? Trukks will block LOS better, can be taken as dedicated transports to avoid using up Fast Attack slots, and are significantly cheaper. They also have a slight chance to avoid explosions with ramshackle. Dreads are also able to fill this role slightly better with AV12 and a larger model. Although not a cheaper option necessarily, battlewagons are the Orks' toughest vehicle and best LOS blocker by far.

TL;DR: Kans are a bit of not-alright. Skip them.

Mek guns are good, but have issues. Cant move and shoot, cant cc, have a ld of 5 with no character, get chewed up by poison/snipers, top range 36 inches. Lootas also decent not as good in cc , kill 4 and a morale check. Also cant move or shoot. Kanz I feel beat both on versatility and can be used as a screen for other units/ vehicles.

Meganobs are pricey once you throw in a bw, and if that get popped early they are on foot with no real range compared to kanz. They also not immune to S4 or less fire an can bbe bolted down. 2 S8 power fist hits wound on a 2+ killing 2, 2 S8 power fist vs a kan pen on a 4+ and may not kill. So i don't think mega nobs are more durable.

2 kans with rokkits = 1 dredd with 2 ccw. Kanz have rokkit and 1 more HP. Kanz hit most things on 4+ and dredds occasionally hit on a 3+ depending on what they are fighting. They both rip up vechiles.

Trukks would make an awefull screen in my opionin. An armor 10 open topped vehicle next to boyz. Begging to explode killing boys in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also argue the Morkanaught is tougher than the battlewagon and block LOS just as good and hands out a 5++.

If you want to compare versatility rather than separate capabilities, then I agree, the killa kans are more than simply gun platforms or close combat machines - they're both, and that offers tactical options other units like big guns lack.

But that versatility comes at a cost. Jack of all trades, master of none and all that. Personally, I prefer taking separate, specialized units to meet my needs in an army list rather than one unit that meets several needs less effectively. Taking kans for their versatility is certainly not a bad way to go. Is it the most competitive option? I couldn't really say for certain.

I'll concede meganobs might not be tougher. I'd say the two units are on relatively equal footing in that regard.

The trukk screen is a bit of a crazy example, but the point was to show that if that's why you're taking killa kans, it might not be the ideal role. They'll explode just as often as you pointed out earlier.

Yeah I forgot about 'nauts. Definitely a better option.

I like to point out that people my think armor 11 is bad but think of it this way. Armor 11 is equivalent to Toughness 8. Both are immune to S4 or less. As the str goes up the armor gets a little less resilient.

Monsterous creatures cant take advantage of cover now and a armor can. Armor is immune to poison (I see /play lots of dark eldar) . Although a Monsterous creature is harder to one shot, with the new damage chart, even an AP1 weapon needs 5+ to deatroy/explode a non open top vehicle. Look at HP like wounds. You can torrent down a MC just like you can armor.

I've seen plenty MC's dropped by S3 and S4 fire. But I've never lost a Kan to a lasgun.

Just some thing to think about before you blow them off as bad.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, it sounds like the Kanz aren't going to see much use and, for the record, I probably won't be using the Dread mob formation, since there's no real reason I'd want to invest in more models I don't have, that aren't coming from the new starter set.

So Deff Dreads. Two Skorchas, or two extra Klaws? (How many attacks would two extra klaws get me? One or two?)

I haven't got the dex with me, but for the dread with 2CCW extra then it works out at 8 attacks on the charge I believe. so without that would be 6.
I personally cant decide whether scorchas are worth it I think if you took the formation then no, as the formation allows your walkers to run and then charge with 'ere we go. But without the formation the ability to flame is pretty nice. But you obviously dont want to flame then ruin your charge. So possibly 1? that way it can act as a defensive tool as well as an offensive when you know you aren't gona need a really good charge roll.

It's 7 on the charge with all four PKs.

I'd either buy klaws or something that's free. A deff dread should run or charge most of the time, so I don't see a reason to spend points for something that does neither. Skorchas have the sad ability of increasing the distance you need to roll for a successful charge, so that's kind of contra-productive.

walkers gain additional attacks for each additional close combat weapon AFTER the first. Minus 1 to how many weapons you got theres your bonus attacks. Deffdredds will have 6 attacks with 4PKs, 7 on the charge, since theyre 3 base and have 3 extra CCWs than they need for the S10 AP2 punchin goodness.

Which leads me to wondering why people think killakans can do melee. Yeah theyre S7 AP2 and that will still wreck a lot of things, but theyre also WS2 with 2 attacks base and no way to gain additional ones. Almost everything with a 2+ armor is WS5, so they hit in 5s against them, and they wont do any good against marines since init4 krak grenades against AV11 while wreck kans immediately.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
walkers gain additional attacks for each additional close combat weapon AFTER the first. Minus 1 to how many weapons you got theres your bonus attacks. Deffdredds will have 6 attacks with 4PKs, 7 on the charge, since theyre 3 base and have 3 extra CCWs than they need for the S10 AP2 punchin goodness.

Which leads me to wondering why people think killakans can do melee. Yeah theyre S7 AP2 and that will still wreck a lot of things, but theyre also WS2 with 2 attacks base and no way to gain additional ones. Almost everything with a 2+ armor is WS5, so they hit in 5s against them, and they wont do any good against marines since init4 krak grenades against AV11 while wreck kans immediately.

they hit vehicles still on 3's. What WS5 units with 2+ saves are there other than dread nights, palladins and HQs ? Most 2+ saves models i face are WS 4.

On krak grenades. People give krak grenades way to much credit. If 6 kans get into combat with a unit of marines, from experience the kans win. 10 marines will on avg do 2 hp damage. (They only get 1 attack each) the 5 kans will kill 4 marines.second round of combat marines do 1 HP and the kans kill 4 more, this is avg.

The don't get wrecked Iimmediately from krak grenades, play a few games first and actually see.

Dakkafang: So, 300 points of Killa Kans will beat 150 points of Tactical Marines under ideal circumstances, and only lose a model and a half?
Whoopty-frikkin do.
Let's try again versus equal points worth of Tactical Marines...
Twice the number of grenades means twice the hull points. That's two dead Kans before they get to strike, before killing four Marines
Then the marines cause 3 Hull Points, and the Kans kill 3 more marines.
Then the Matines cause 2 Hull Points. At this point, only 2 Kans remain, who will be causing maybe 2 Casualties.
Another dead Kan, and a single dead marine. And then the last Kan bites it.

In equal points cost then, a TAC squad will beat up Kans in close combat.

If some ones wants to commit 2 tac sqauds to cc to deal my kanz I'm all for it. And loose 10 of their number in the process to deal with 6 kanz, I'd say trading 1 unit to tie up 2 is a good trade.

That's a lot less shots at the boyz.

The only point to scorchas seems to be Wall of Death.
If S5 AP4 D3 hits matters enough, take them, otherwise klaws.

-Matt

Killakans dont even have the option for a second klaw unfortunately.

Scorchas arent a bad idea if youre trying to send them down your opponents throat. Thats a lot of overwatch and good shootin before you charge (if the target is still alive lol)

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
If some ones wants to commit 2 tac sqauds to cc to deal my kanz I'm all for it. And loose 10 of their number in the process to deal with 6 kanz, I'd say trading 1 unit to tie up 2 is a good trade.

That's a lot less shots at the boyz.

So you'd gladly trade 300 points of models for 150 points of models and two turns of firing tied up? Keep in mind, these are *Ideal* circumstances. In the best possible situation, with the best possible circumstances, Killa Kans lose to models that they are designed to kill and don't even take half their enemy with them.
If you play your entire army like that you'll lose by turn three.

I'd also like to point out that twenty Boltguns isn't as crippling against Ork Boys as you'd think. 40 Shots, sonewhere around 27 hits, 13-14 wounds. Cover of 5+ (Or a 5+ Invuln) is average, so 9 wounds. Feel no pain makes that 6.
6 wounds. Or 9 with no cover or no FNP, 13 or 14 with no cover AND no FNP.

Plus, in Assault 300 points of Ork Boys will freaking destroy 300 points of Space Marines. We'll assume a Nob with a PK and a Painboy attached to 30 Ork Boys versus 20 Tacticals with 4 flamers.
First, free shooting for the Space Marines: They get their 6 kills. Then the orks Charge, 2 more casualties from Overwatch.
The Space Marines attack. 3 more wounds.
Now, 20 Ork Boys get to hit... 4 dead Space Marines. And then the Nob gets 2 more.
Next round of combat, 2 dead Ork Boys and 3 dead Space Marines. Repeat ad naseum, the Space Marines will die faster than the boys due to weight of attacks.


So, to recap: You claim that Killa Kans are good because they soak up damage and hurt enemies less than the Boys they are supposed to protect. Riiiiight.

Murrdox wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

Remember that you can shoot through gaps between models, but you can't shoot through models in base-to-base. They block LOS completely.

Is this true? I thought True LOS allows you to shoot at whatever you can see, with no abstractions? Or did this change in 7th?

My eyebrow is also significantly raised. I don't think this is the case.

I know it *used* t be the case, but I'm not 100% on 7th ed yet. You can fire through the gaps between bases of a unit to hit the unit behind it (and give them a cover save), and if a small unit is in front of a large unit, then they provide cover, but a large model in front of a small model blocks LOS, last I heard.

It's kind of like putting a Librarian behind a wedge of Terminators... you have to knock a hole in the formation before you can shoot through it.

Who said kanz were designed to kill tac marines ? I use them to go after armor and mc's. My boyz go after infantry

You brought up that since krak grenades can hurt them they are garbage. Of course boyz will rip apart tac marines that's a gievn. The argument was tac marines immediately wrecking kanz, it's not the case.

I deal circumstances the boyz deal with the marines the kanz with armor MC's. I know 20 tac marines will never get into cc with 6 kans. We are talking hypothetically.

From actual game experience the kanz do their job for me and are not a bad unit imo. My main opponent is a marine player I play weekly and his krak grenades are not a huge threat to my kanz as people are making them out to be.

i dont think ive ever seen 20 marines in the same side of the board let alone in the same combat lol. Theyre usually ~12"-24" apart in groups of 5-8.