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 Da Boss wrote:
I'm saying that would be the least violent solution. In my view, the Israelis are the aggressors (with European backing originally) having dispossessed the people living there. They also acted aggressively against the British with terrorist attacks when they were not supported to the level they wanted to be.
The Zionist cause was (and is) insane, and it was never workable. This clusterfeth is the consequence of that world view.

Is it workable to think that a country of over 8 million (almost twice that of Ireland) can simply be disbanded. What about the Palestinian cause? Do you think guerrilla war until you have the land from the river to the sea is workable?

 Da Boss wrote:
While Israel remains, it will provoke attacks from the dispossessed palestinians, and then Israel will respond to defend itself, provoking yet more attacks. Without ethnically cleansing the Palestinians (which is happening in slow motion anyway) or genocide on either side, I don't see there ever being a solution.

"While the UK remains, it will provoke attacks from the dispossessed Irish" - as you tried to equate Anglo-Irish history to the I/P conflict do you find sympathy with this statement? If not why not.

 Da Boss wrote:
The other option of course is to export all the Palestinians elsewhere. Either works for me, I guess. But the Palestinians don't have many options for escape, what with the crushing poverty and all that.
Edit: I should clarify that I am being flippant here, and was also being flippant earlier. There is no simple solution to this problem, there might not even be a complicated solution- it's a goddamned messy tragedy that probably has no good ending.

Wasn't that supposed to happen, but instead the Arab countries neighboring Israel decided it was best to wipe it out instead?

 Da Boss wrote:
If it seems like I am blindly pro-Palestine in this thread, I want to make it clear that I don't support their violence (I can understand it, but I don't support it) and I think it is wrong. I just find the level of support for Israel that always crops up in these threads to be unbelievable, because they are at least as bad, and in my view slightly worse since it was their crazy Zionist movement that "started" the whole conflict off.

You just called for an entire, legally constituted country to disband so as to stop people attacking it. Could you see why you might give that impression.

So what would become of the Israelis who were born there and know no other country than their own? Where should they live?

So what would become of the Israelis who were born there and know no other country than their own? Where should they live?

Welcome to New Israel. here's your guide to Tex Mex and remember your new motto: "Gig 'em Aggies!"

So I'm kinda shocked by what I've read in this thread, but then again everyone has their own perspective on the issue and their voice so its understandable. I should probably cite my credentials before I hop into what I got to say. I currently live in Saudi, but am a Caucasian American (born in Texas) and have lived here for 8 years. For 8 years, I've participated in MUN, been to multiple international conferences, and represented over 19 countries, including Israel.

My point of view on the issue: The situation is downright atrocious. Israel is completely butchering the Palestinians, and all online statistics support this notion. Sure the Palestinians are mustering up a resistance, but their damage output is nominal. All in all, I believe that Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. The Americans and British essentially airdropped in the Jews/Zionists into Palestine into 1948, armed them, and told them to have fun. Palestinians on the other hand have lived there for 3,000+ years, lived in the land, and are now slowly being slaughtered off their rightful land. Israel has essentially the number 1 fighting force in the world and is doing great at killing nominally trained resistance, civilians, mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, babies, children, etc... Yes, Palestinians are fighting back, and as they should be because it is undoubtedly their land, not because they're having fun fighting the most powerful military force in the world.

Being in Saudi has given me the opportunity to meet people from Palestine and actually meet Palestinians abroad in many other countries. What they have told me has matched verbatim what has been shown throw media sources like Al-Jazeera or civilian recordings. No matter how you chop it, the Palestinians deserve their rightful homeland, but they're fighting a losing battle, and everyone outside of the middle east or those who are not actively or unbiasedly looking at various news sources which aren't pro-west or conversely pro-east would see that its an unfair, sad fight.

Personally, I'm still shocked at how people readily jump to the claim that Israelis/Zionists deserve Israel/Palestine over the Palestinians who have lived there for thousands of years, while the Israels were basically dropped off there like unwanted children, but continually armed with the best weapons in the world.

Once more, I mean no offense by what I'm saying, I just hope many people on this thread hopefully can see what I'm trying to say and hopefully can agree with me. Happy wargaming guys and girls

Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did? impressive.
If the Israelis were "butchering" the Palestinians how are any still alive?

Please explain how you intend to move a nation of 8mm Jews, Muslims, and Christians anywhere?

What about the Israelis that lived in Israel when it was still Ottoman territory? Do they have to leave too?

Should we go ahead and preventatively ship out the nondominant Muslim sect as well?

The blythe statements of "they should all move out" is..interesting.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm saying that would be the least violent solution. In my view, the Israelis are the aggressors (with European backing originally) having dispossessed the people living there. They also acted aggressively against the British with terrorist attacks when they were not supported to the level they wanted to be.
The Zionist cause was (and is) insane, and it was never workable. This clusterfeth is the consequence of that world view.

You do realise that the Zionist cause was a bunch of agitating nutters spread over the fifty years before the founding of Israel? The main reason the Jews ended up in Israel was because after they moved them out of Nazi concentration camps into squalid British camps in Cyprus, no-one wanted to let them back into their countries. Some, like Poland, even celebrated their freedom from the Nazis by slaughtering the few Jews that were left. So the remaining survivors were packed off to Israel with little say in the matter. The Zionists were just a tiny cog in that vast network of causes.

I think it's somewhat harsh to say that the descendants of those concentration camp survivors should just 'leave the area'. What comes next, get everyone in New Zealand to pack up and leave for dispossessing the Maoris? I mean, there's only four million people in New Zealand compared to the seven million Israelis, so that'd be easy in comparison. We could consider it warmup before we start deporting everyone in America, Australia, etc.

Schuylerlaflare wrote:

My point of view on the issue: The situation is downright atrocious. Israel is completely butchering the Palestinians,

Completely butchering? So they're machine gunning babies into pits predug by their parents at gunpoint, setting on fire all of their houses, hacking women and children apart with machetes, putting heads on spikes...no? Didn't think so. Just a little bit of rhetoric there.

Sure the Palestinians are mustering up a resistance, but their damage output is nominal.

That's good. I'm all in favour of people not dying wherever possible. Wouldn't you agree?

All in all, I believe that Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

Which ones? Because I'd regard anyone born and raised there as being a 'Palestinian' in every way that matters.

The Americans and British essentially airdropped in the Jews/Zionists into Palestine into 1948, armed them, and told them to have fun.

That was precisely what happened. All those Jews were rounded up from Europe, given guns, parachuted in, and told to have fun. You know, in those multiple wars where they fought practically every Arabic nation at the same time on their own. No doubt it was just like 'Inglorious Bastards'.

Palestinians on the other hand have lived there for 3,000+ years,

My word. And there I thought the oldest people in the world never reached much past 100.

lived in the land

That does tend to be part of having lived there for 3,000 years I would have thought. Unless they're in holes or something.

and are now slowly being slaughtered off their rightful land
Israel has essentially the number 1 fighting force in the world and is doing great at killing nominally trained resistance, civilians, mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, babies, children, etc... Yes, Palestinians are fighting back, and as they should be because it is undoubtedly their land, not because they're having fun fighting the most powerful military force in the world.

Undoubtedly? You should read the history of Jerusalem. Most people in that part of the world get depopulated and exiled at least once every half a millennia or so. You'd be surprised how often that part of the world HAS changed hands and ethnicities over the last 3000 years.

those who are not actively or unbiasedly looking at various news sources which aren't pro-west or conversely pro-east would see that its an unfair, sad fight.

Would you find it morally better if both sides all armed themselves with Claymores and had it out in a big field somewhere? I mean, sure, one side is the underdog and all that, but people still get killed. Just because the casualties tend to be more on the side that's less well armed and funded doesn't automatically make the one less well armed better.

Personally, I'm still shocked at how people readily jump to the claim that Israelis/Zionists deserve Israel/Palestine over the Palestinians who have lived there for thousands of years, while the Israels were basically dropped off there like unwanted children, but continually armed with the best weapons in the world.

'Unwanted children'.

Holocaust survivors rejected by their home countries = dropped off like unwanted children.
Embroiled in multiple wars for survival by people who want to 'drive them back into the sea' but hey! They got some good weapons!

Once more, I mean no offense by what I'm saying,

It's funny how often people preface offensive things with that.

I just hope many people on this thread hopefully can see what I'm trying to say and hopefully can agree with me.

Of course! Send all those filthy Yids home already! Or at least take away all their toys and make them mud-wrestle for ownership of the land!

 Frazzled wrote:
Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did? impressive.
If the Israelis were "butchering" the Palestinians how are any still alive?

Please explain how you intend to move a nation of 8mm Jews, Muslims, and Christians anywhere?

What about the Israelis that lived in Israel when it was still Ottoman territory? Do they have to leave too?

Should we go ahead and preventatively ship out the nondominant Muslim sect as well?

The blythe statements of "they should all move out" is..interesting.

was this aimed at me, for me to respond to...?

Or at least take away all their toys and make them mud-wrestle for ownership of the land!

Depending on the contestants, that could be mighty interesting...




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Schuylerlaflare wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Palestinians lived there before the Israelis did? impressive.
If the Israelis were "butchering" the Palestinians how are any still alive?

Please explain how you intend to move a nation of 8mm Jews, Muslims, and Christians anywhere?

What about the Israelis that lived in Israel when it was still Ottoman territory? Do they have to leave too?

Should we go ahead and preventatively ship out the nondominant Muslim sect as well?

The blythe statements of "they should all move out" is..interesting.

was this aimed at me, for me to respond to...?

Sure, whoever wants to claim it.

In the event that it was, let me respond to it

You see, there are ways to converse with others without sounding so rude or so terse. Your response makes you seem so immature and rude its appaling, at least converse like a calm, rational human being.

Yeah, I'd say living on land for thousands of years does make it your land... If I had known that I could just airdrop into New Zealand and be armed to the teeth to claim it as my own, hell sign me up. See the logic, its kinda ridiculous...

Wait, since when did butchering equate to exterminated. Butchering is a perfectly fitting word, and the reason why Palestinians are around is because their numbers are dwindling, they're just surviving. Its truly sad :/

There's no need to take offense or respond in such a harsh manner lol, were on a wargaming website. I didn't say everyone bail out of Israel... I said legal power needs to be handed back to the people who have been there the longest. Those people who have been there are of all the Abrahamic religions and can claim to be Palestinians so your first point lacks meaning, not to mention many of the Israelis hold the Israeli passport because they have no choice (Trust me I've met many of them).

How can Israelis be a part of Israel when it was a kingdom ruled by Turks hundreds of years ago? That makes no sense, and once more, they wouldn't be Israeli's because prior to Israel being there, they would be part of an ethnic group that's been there for hundreds of years, whether it be Palestinians or other ethnicities which may have been there. Are you implying that once Israel was there, it was the end all and everyone was Israeli? If you are, don't bother responding to my post because your being irrational and nothing fruitful would be gained from this post.

The Muslims have no problems with each other in Palestine, they're fighting to keep their religion(s) and ethnicity around. And again, you made the point of moving everyone out when I didn't say we need to kick all the Israelis out....

Why are you so harsh and so rude? This is a gaming forum ffs, we can all discuss an issue like normal people. We shouldn't even be talking because were not walking in the steps of either Palestinians or Israelis for that matter. I just hope there is resolution to this horrible crisis soon. Too many people are dying on both sides.

This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Ive actually never lolled so hard in my life dude, thanks for a good laugh

Dude you're the one advocating crimes against Humanity as defined by the UN, and I'm the one thats immature and rude? Evidently disagreement with you is being harsh.

There's no need to take offense or respond in such a harsh manner lol, were on a wargaming website. I didn't say everyone bail out of Israel... I said legal power needs to be handed back to the people who have been there the longest.

So we find the oldest girl in the region and put her in charge? Well my wife and daughter would naturally agree. How about you?

Otherwise your argument defeats you. Unless we've got some Canaanites running around, the Jews have a priority claim timewise.

if you're arguing the Turks were there first, well the Israelis were there second and the Ottoman Turks don't exist any more. Again your claim is invalidated.

Frazzled wrote:

Or at least take away all their toys and make them mud-wrestle for ownership of the land!

Depending on the contestants, that could be mighty interesting...

Are there bikinis involved? I hear there are some good places with mud near the red sea perfectly suited for that sort of thing...

Yeah, I'd say living on land for thousands of years does make it your land... If I had known that I could just airdrop into New Zealand and be armed to the teeth to claim it as my own, hell sign me up. See the logic, its kinda ridiculous...

It isn't really 'thousands of years' though, is it? I mean, exaggeration aside, things have only really been settled round there since Suleiman about five hundred years ago. Before that people moved in, were expelled, were wiped out, were replaced, were all killed again, were deported, cross bred with other ethnicities, and so on.

And five hundred years is a blink of the eyelid historically speaking. I wander round castles twice that age all the time.

Wait, since when did butchering equate to exterminated. Butchering is a perfectly fitting word, and the reason why Palestinians are around is because their numbers are dwindling, they're just surviving. Its truly sad :/

Well, usually butchering is equated to mass bloody wholesale slaughter. If that's not what you had in mind, you should use a different word.

I said legal power needs to be handed back to the people who have been there the longest.

So that would be.....whatever Jews date back to the Roman era?

The Muslims have no problems with each other in Palestine, they're fighting to keep their religion(s) and ethnicity around.

If the Israelis weren't there, they'd most likely be happily butchering each other instead, in traditional Middle-Eastern style.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Thats awesome, and brings us back to my second option.

All the survivors have citizenship in a slightly expanded Israel.

Everybody quits killing each other, and gets on with the business of life in a stable democracy, all busy making Tavors for redneck Americans.

Thanks Obama!

But in honor of the harsh hostilities, every year they should re-enact the Bikini Games!

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Have an exalt. That sums it up.

^hence my "conquered" statement.

Great vid... should be stickied in OT.

 Frazzled wrote:
Dude you're the one advocating crimes against Humanity as defined by the UN, and I'm the one thats immature and rude? Evidently disagreement with you is being harsh.

There's no need to take offense or respond in such a harsh manner lol, were on a wargaming website. I didn't say everyone bail out of Israel... I said legal power needs to be handed back to the people who have been there the longest.

So we find the oldest girl in the region and put her in charge? Well my wife and daughter would naturally agree. How about you?

Otherwise your argument defeats you. Unless we've got some Canaanites running around, the Jews have a priority claim timewise.

if you're arguing the Turks were there first, well the Israelis were there second and the Ottoman Turks don't exist any more. Again your claim is invalidated.

I'm trying to discuss this as friendly as possible legitimately. Im the type who gets really riled up about some issues, but its not worth it. This isn't our fight so to speak. I just found the way you responded to what I said to be harsh, it just seemed like "ok wtv blah blah"

Wait what exactly was I advocating that would be deemed a crime against humanity? Im not asking for anyone to wage all out war? Is it inhumane to say that the ethnic people who have lived upon the land the longest do not deserve the land, well then its just a fault in my rationale in how I believe this "right" should be given. Again, this is how it would also be rationalized in my international relations classes at university, where I study international politics/relations....

I guess you think comical responses to what I'm saying quantifies your points moreso than mine. I'll just respond to them as effectively as possible.

When I was saying hand back legal power to the "group that has lived the longest, I basically mean the majority ethnic populace, not based off of religion. And no, I don't mean the "oldest" girl in the region, as irremarkable a response that is.

I never argued that the turks were there first, I was simply stating they were there before the Israelis. In the event that I was, Palestinians have still been there before Israel....otherwise there wouldn't be a whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope what im saying here isn't really pissing you guys off, I'm just stating how I feel, and maybe I am biased based off my life but I'm just trying to convey my sentiments as nicely as possible... in a way of probably cooling this post down, what armies do you guys play?

the Palestinians deserve their rightful homeland

Your original statement advocated the forced movement of 8mm people. Thats a war crime under international law.

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
represented over 19 countries, including Israel.

In any sort of official/recognized capacity?

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
My point of view on the issue: The situation is downright atrocious. Israel is completely butchering the Palestinians, and all online statistics support this notion. Sure the Palestinians are mustering up a resistance, but their damage output is nominal.

What is your definition of "damage output"
Is the damage output nominal because the Israelis invest in shelter, early warning systems, interception methods, and avoid targeted areas where possible?

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
All in all, I believe that Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. The Americans and British essentially airdropped in the Jews/Zionists into Palestine into 1948, armed them, and told them to have fun. Palestinians on the other hand have lived there for 3,000+ years, lived in the land, and are now slowly being slaughtered off their rightful land. Israel has essentially the number 1 fighting force in the world and is doing great at killing nominally trained resistance, civilians, mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, babies, children, etc... Yes, Palestinians are fighting back, and as they should be because it is undoubtedly their land, not because they're having fun fighting the most powerful military force in the world.

You make it sound as though the IDF and IAF spend their days indiscriminately firing on unarmed civilians.

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
Being in Saudi has given me the opportunity to meet people from Palestine and actually meet Palestinians abroad in many other countries. What they have told me has matched verbatim what has been shown throw media sources like Al-Jazeera or civilian recordings. No matter how you chop it, the Palestinians deserve their rightful homeland, but they're fighting a losing battle, and everyone outside of the middle east or those who are not actively or unbiasedly looking at various news sources which aren't pro-west or conversely pro-east would see that its an unfair, sad fight.

Personally, I'm still shocked at how people readily jump to the claim that Israelis/Zionists deserve Israel/Palestine over the Palestinians who have lived there for thousands of years, while the Israels were basically dropped off there like unwanted children, but continually armed with the best weapons in the world.

So given your knowledge, experience, and access to information from a variety of sources in Saudi how would you suggest the conflict is resolved?

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
Is it inhumane to say that the ethnic people who have lived upon the land the longest do not deserve the land, well then its just a fault in my rationale in how I believe this "right" should be given. Again, this is how it would also be rationalized in my international relations classes at university, where I study international politics/relations....

Please quantify exactly what you mean and where you stand then, by answering the following questions:-

-Do you believe that anyone descended from such immigrants has less of a 'right' to participate in the due political process, own land, and have children then someone whose ancestors date back five or six hundred more years?
-Do you believe that if Hamas bases it's portable missile launchers in heavily populated and civilian areas when launching rockets, that Israel should refrain from retaliating against them?
-Do you believe that the Government there should be monopolised by people who have lengthier ancestry in the local area, to the point of stifling the fair democratic process?

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
Wait, since when did butchering equate to exterminated. Butchering is a perfectly fitting word, and the reason why Palestinians are around is because their numbers are dwindling, they're just surviving. Its truly sad :/

That's strange, census data shows the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza on the rise.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Surprisingly historically accurate. I was able to recognize almost all of the depictions based on historical events.

When the world basically said "Ok, maybe genocide and gas chambers is not the solution, but they can't stay in Europe... We lost a war but we are still horrible bigots here. Let's dump them off in a land we conquered... what can go wrong?"

I do like how when white people in Europe want to displace an unwanted minority, it is ok... I mean, when you run the world, who gets to tell you your actions are destructive to the rest of the world?

Sadly, what is done is done, and Europe isn't going to ever pay for their crimes. The people are there in the middle east and the occupants are going to have to overcome human nature and try to integrate societies and give everyone equal rights regardless of religion or ancestry. Of course this is impossible because humans are terrible and people in power are also terrible.

nkelsch wrote:

I do like how when white people in Europe want to displace an unwanted minority, it is ok... I mean, when you run the world, who gets to tell you your actions are destructive to the rest of the world?

Sadly, what is done is done, and Europe isn't going to ever pay for their crimes.

Funnily enough, America was the main driving force behind that one, not anyone from Europe. The original idea was British from about forty years beforehand,but the British quite frankly didn't want to put them there. But the US pressured them, and the French joined in (mainly to hack off the Brits and score political favours/brownie points), and the rest, as they say, is history. The British capitulated to international pressure, kept the peace for as long as they could whilst they were there, and then got the hell out asap after America kept pushing for them to disband their Empire. Suez was the last gasp.

 Ketara wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I do like how when white people in Europe want to displace an unwanted minority, it is ok... I mean, when you run the world, who gets to tell you your actions are destructive to the rest of the world?

Sadly, what is done is done, and Europe isn't going to ever pay for their crimes.

Funnily enough, America was the main driving force behind that one, not anyone from Europe. The original idea was British from about forty years beforehand,but the British quite frankly didn't want to put them there. But the US pressured them, and the French joined in (mainly to hack off the Brits and score political favours/brownie points), and the rest, as they say, is history. The British capitulated to international pressure, kept the peace for as long as they could whilst they were there, and then got the hell out asap after America kept pushing for them to disband their Empire. Suez was the last gasp.

Oh the US was also involved because Europe wanted them all sent to America... The truth is half of Germany should have been turned into Israel and they should have stayed in Europe. There was a whole lot of 'not in my back yard' going on in 1948. Most of the reasons countries even support Israel today is they simply don't want refugees from a war flooding into Europe and integrating with their culture because there is still a lot of anti-Semitic attitudes in Europe.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This is my favorite take on the whole thing

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Might makes right...

nkelsch wrote:
Oh the US was also involved because Europe wanted them all sent to America... The truth is half of Germany should have been turned into Israel and they should have stayed in Europe. There was a whole lot of 'not in my back yard' going on in 1948. Most of the reasons countries even support Israel today is they simply don't want refugees from a war flooding into Europe and integrating with their culture because there is still a lot of anti-Semitic attitudes in Europe.

Given the events of the Cold War (and the suffering that had been experienced at the hands of the Germans) which half should they have gotten?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Schuylerlaflare wrote:
Being in Saudi has given me the opportunity to meet people from Palestine and actually meet Palestinians abroad in many other countries. What they have told me has matched verbatim what has been shown throw media sources like Al-Jazeera or civilian recordings. No matter how you chop it, the Palestinians deserve their rightful homeland, but they're fighting a losing battle, and everyone outside of the middle east or those who are not actively or unbiasedly looking at various news sources which aren't pro-west or conversely pro-east would see that its an unfair, sad fight.

So, living in Saudi how many Israelis have you had the opportunity to interact with? Would it be a fair comment that only hearing one side of the story could lead to a biased conclusion on your part?

Austria...hey ultimate payback....

Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.

It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious hole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.

I'm down with that. I'm all for advancing to the rear as far as the entire region is concerned.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.

It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious hole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.

The west got to its 'civilized' society through slave exploitation and genocide. I am not sure that letting 'humanity' follow their natural inclinations to eventually reach an acceptable 'civilized' level is a good solution. It is very hard to plug up all those finger-holes left by imperialist rule.

I always get a kick out of saying Jews haven't populated that area as long as Palestinians have.

Jews are Palestinians, they were not foreign invaders of that land. Their culture began in the Levant. One could argue that culturally, their a more pure representation of the original Levant civilizations then modern palestinians, since they've largely become nothing more then Arabs.

Archaeological today points to the fact that the Jewish population grew from a tribe of Canaanites. The physical remains of Jews* are identical to non-jews from that region during the original development of civilization (3500ish BC), which was MUCH earlier then the arab encroachment into that region that todays "Paleistinians" spring from.

*I'm not referring to todays Jews, obviously todays Israeli Jews have a much more diverse gene pool then they did 5500 years ago, having spread their culture throughout much of the world, and then moved back to the region. I was referring to the original Jewish population.