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BlaxicanX wrote: Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.
It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious shithole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.
I'm all for progress in the ME, but it's important to draw a distinction between Israel and its neighbors. It's definitely not a "religious hole." It's the most progressive country in the ME. In none of Israel's neighbors do women, gays, and other minority populations have equal rights. Arab Muslims have seats in Israel's government. How many Arab Muslim countries would permit a Jew to serve in its government?
This isn't directed at you, but I would like to add that this is not a religious war for the Israelis. Most Israelis are actually quite secular to begin with, but the conflict isn't about that. They don't care whether Palestinians are Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. This operation is a response to mortar and rocket attacks carried out by Hamas and Fatah militants against Israeli civilians in border towns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/12 08:58:59
BlaxicanX wrote: Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.
It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious shithole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.
I'm all for progress in the ME, but it's important to draw a distinction between Israel and its neighbors. It's definitely not a "religioushole." It's the most progressive country in the ME. In none of Israel's neighbors do women, gays, and other minority populations have equal rights. Arab Muslims have seats in Israel's government. How many Arab Muslim countries would permit a Jew to serve in its government?
This isn't directed at you, but I would like to add that this is not a religious war for the Israelis. Most Israelis are actually quite secular to begin with, but the conflict isn't about that. They don't care whether Palestinians are Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. This operation is a response to mortar and rocket attacks carried out by Hamas and Fatah militants against Israeli civilians in border towns.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Hamas indoctrinates children to think it is ok to murder jews. They make frikkin TV shows about it. Yet the all inclusive, progressive government that would much rather live in peace is the bad guy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/12 08:59:18
Accidental slip, ignorance of the situation, or malice. It could be any of those, or some combination of the above. The clip you provided is short on context and serves only as a platform for projection.
Have you any comment on the phenomenon dubbed "Pallywood"?
BlaxicanX wrote: Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.
It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious shithole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.
I'm all for progress in the ME, but it's important to draw a distinction between Israel and its neighbors. It's definitely not a "religioushole." It's the most progressive country in the ME. In none of Israel's neighbors do women, gays, and other minority populations have equal rights. Arab Muslims have seats in Israel's government. How many Arab Muslim countries would permit a Jew to serve in its government?
This isn't directed at you, but I would like to add that this is not a religious war for the Israelis. Most Israelis are actually quite secular to begin with, but the conflict isn't about that. They don't care whether Palestinians are Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. This operation is a response to mortar and rocket attacks carried out by Hamas and Fatah militants against Israeli civilians in border towns.
And also the fact that Hamas now have their hands on rockets capable of hitting targets much deeper within Israeli territory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/12 08:59:50
Wyrmalla wrote: Oh I can understand why they're disgruntled, but the tactics they use to fight the Israelis, both militarily and their domestic policy (which is just rife with anti-Semitism and jihadist crap) paints those use them as being pretty damn awful.
I agree. But the simple fact remains if Israel wanted an end to the issue they could simply stop building settlements and withdraw the settlements they've already built on Palestinian land. But they don't.
I don't think this entitles Palestine to respond as they have, but we need to be realistic about who actually has the power to stop this.
The same things were said after the 7 day war in '67, if only Israel gave such and such back, the violence would end. Israel eventually returned the land in question and still got attacked.
Wyrmalla wrote: Oh I can understand why they're disgruntled, but the tactics they use to fight the Israelis, both militarily and their domestic policy (which is just rife with anti-Semitism and jihadist crap) paints those use them as being pretty damn awful.
I agree. But the simple fact remains if Israel wanted an end to the issue they could simply stop building settlements and withdraw the settlements they've already built on Palestinian land. But they don't.
I don't think this entitles Palestine to respond as they have, but we need to be realistic about who actually has the power to stop this.
The same things were said after the 7 day war in '67, if only Israel gave such and such back, the violence would end. Israel eventually returned the land in question and still got attacked.
It's also probably worth noting that Israel has respected fully its peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. That's not the behavior of an aggressive nation hell-bent on expansion.
Frazzled wrote: Dude you're the one advocating crimes against Humanity as defined by the UN, and I'm the one thats immature and rude? Evidently disagreement with you is being harsh.
There's no need to take offense or respond in such a harsh manner lol, were on a wargaming website. I didn't say everyone bail out of Israel... I said legal power needs to be handed back to the people who have been there the longest.
So we find the oldest girl in the region and put her in charge? Well my wife and daughter would naturally agree. How about you?
Otherwise your argument defeats you. Unless we've got some Canaanites running around, the Jews have a priority claim timewise.
if you're arguing the Turks were there first, well the Israelis were there second and the Ottoman Turks don't exist any more. Again your claim is invalidated.
Also, I'd point out that, if you want ANYONE to take your "cause" seriously, especially The Western world, you simply do NOT actively target women and children in your attacks, regardless of weapon being used.
And that is precisely what the Palestinian side does.... Bombing schools, city busses, hospitals, etc. trying to gain their "freedom" through terror tactics. The Israelis target military targets, certainly they have killed women and children, but this was not their intent, and I'd be willing to bet money that if there was a reliable statistic, we'd see that Palestinians have killed far more "innocents" than Israel has.
Also, since you're so keen on giving the land to "he who was there the longest" where is your fething outrage that Kurdistan STILL isn't a country!? they've been kicked around far more, and for a lot longer than the Jewish/Israeli community has
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: that post was to be in aggreance with Frazz... not a rebuttal
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/12 01:11:42
BlaxicanX wrote: Maybe we should leave the middle east the feth alone and let them sort out their own problems.
It took the west thousands of years to grow from a Religious shithole of violence and barbarism into the more or less "civilized" society we have now. We've had our fingers in Africa and the nearby region for so long so that they haven't gotten the opportunity.
I'm all for progress in the ME, but it's important to draw a distinction between Israel and its neighbors. It's definitely not a "religious hole." It's the most progressive country in the ME. In none of Israel's neighbors do women, gays, and other minority populations have equal rights. Arab Muslims have seats in Israel's government. How many Arab Muslim countries would permit a Jew to serve in its government?
This isn't directed at you, but I would like to add that this is not a religious war for the Israelis. Most Israelis are actually quite secular to begin with, but the conflict isn't about that. They don't care whether Palestinians are Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. This operation is a response to mortar and rocket attacks carried out by Hamas and Fatah militants against Israeli civilians in border towns.
That may be so, but the thing is, it's immaterial.
Honestly, as callous as it is to say, "who started it" or "who's the aggressor" doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that that entire region is destabilized and as long as its filled with angry Muslims it's going to stay that way, and there's nothing anyone in the West can do to change that.
So there's only two things that can be done to stabilize that region: A) Kill every Muslim in it and let the Jews own the entire area (lulz, obviously won't happen), or B) leave them alone and let the situation burn itself out over the course of however many decades it takes.
And that includes letting Israel handle itself, which I think is what most people would consider the callous part. But... that's just too bad, honestly. We've fethed our own Country, spending trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives both directly and in-directly supporting Israel's sovereignty, pissing off the entire Middle East in the process. Radical Muslims aren't sitting over there pissed off at America and planning its demise because they hate our freedom and our Democracy and our white women and all that other stuff movies show- they hate us because they hate Israel and we are its staunchest defender.
So the morality of it doesn't matter. We're broke, our Military is tired and spread thin, our education system sucks, our economy sucks, we've got massive border problems. Our own country is so fundamentally broken on multiple levels that we have absolutely no business sticking our noses in other peoples' problems. If Israel wants to stay Israel then let them fight for that right. Hopefully they can work something out and survive, but if not... well, they wouldn't be the first country in Man's history to be destroyed or absorbed by another, and they probably won't be the last either. But it's no longer our concern either way. If they want intelligence or some pretty satellite pictures, then whatever. But as far as rolling into someone's country with our tanks and hummers and badass soldiers and telling them how to live their lives and run their country... that gak needs to stop man. We literally can't afford to be the World Police anymore.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/07/12 09:01:15
I pointed out (in my post, like) that my mass movement idea was flippant, guys. Taking it seriously makes it look like your reading comprehension is really poor. I also stated I don't see any solution to the problem.
But I'm calling some of you out on something here- there are a good few statements here which imply that opponents of Israel's policy in this thread are anti-semetic. That is frankly bs. I am not an anti-semite because I believe Israel's policies are wrong. I don't give a crap what religion or ethnic group they are, it doesn't have any bearing on my opinion. It's a cheap shot to equate opposition to Israeli policies with anti-semitism, and it's especially hilarious coming from the "we're not racist!" brigade who get so touchy whenever race is brought up in threads here.
Ketara: That's a pretty biased outlook on britain's involvement in the mid east, mate. Can't say I agree with that whatsoever.
Ketara: That's a pretty biased outlook on britain's involvement in the mid east, mate. Can't say I agree with that whatsoever.
I assume you're referring to this?
Funnily enough, America was the main driving force behind that one, not anyone from Europe. The original idea was British from about forty years beforehand,but the British quite frankly didn't want to put them there. But the US pressured them, and the French joined in (mainly to hack off the Brits and score political favours/brownie points), and the rest, as they say, is history. The British capitulated to international pressure, kept the peace for as long as they could whilst they were there, and then got the hell out asap after America kept pushing for them to disband their Empire. Suez was the last gasp.
I'd agree I'm scraping over the detail, but as a summary only half a paragraph long, it's reasonably accurate. Yes, the original idea to set up a Jewish homeland was British. Yes, it was forty years before it actually happened. Yes, when the time rolled around, the British were no longer keen on the idea (I believe the idea of Madagascar, the Nazi's old plan was raised by them). But the Americans were the primary instigators and backers for it after WW2, not the British, and its well known that the French weren't all that bothered about it. I'd say all that is more or less public domain and factual, so I'm not entirely sure where the supposed bias is coming from.
If you're referring just to the 'keeping the peace and then got the hell out under American pressure' statement, I'll agree that's extremely sparse on detail, but considering the original subject was shipping all the Jews there in the first place(and it supposedly being the fault of 'Europe'), I considered the rest more or less OT. Although having said that, most of this entire tangent was OT, so I'll make a post that isn't.
As things stand, Hamas is alone in the world. The Egyptian military views them as allies of the Brotherhood and is collapsing all their tunnels. Iran pulled most of their funding after they started backing Syria's enemies in the civil war. Hezbollah's co-operation has dropped for the same reason. Their power has degraded to the extent that they've been forced into trying to form a co-operative power with Fatah, whom they despise.
If Israel can weather this storm of missiles without invading, its entirely possible that Hamas will self-destruct through a lack of funding. With the Iranian and Syrian funding taps cut off, and the revenue from taxing tunnel smuggling fast diminishing, Hamas simply cannot afford to carry on anymore. All they have left to them is a big stock of missiles, and once those are gone, its entirely possible they cannot be replaced.
With the wall up and the Israeli blockade, the jihadists cannot move in in the same way they did in Syria and Iraq. So if Israel weather the missiles, watch Hamas self-destruct, and then bribe/coerce the notoriously corrupt Fatah into line whilst sponsoring them to supplant Hamas (by relaxing certain trade restrictions for Fatah and so on), they may actually be able to initiate the peace process in the least possible destructive way over the next few generations.
What needs to happen first though, is Hamas needs to end.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/12 13:58:50
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Going total war on Gaza every time rockets get shot their way seems to be ineffective at achieving any goal other than killing human shields.
Not sure why its wrong to point out that Israels offensives in the region are little more than shooting galleries that achieve marginal if any strategic results. If it were otherwise we would have a new one ever couple of years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/13 09:34:51
Going total war on Gaza every time rockets get shot their way seems to be ineffective at achieving any goal other than killing human shields.
Not sure why its wrong to point out that Israels offensives in the region are little more than shooting galleries that achieve marginal if any strategic results. If it were otherwise we would have a new one ever couple of years.
One could argue that if there weren't such massive Palestinian casualties as a result of Israeli actions, the Israeli casualties would most likely be higher. Less destroyed launchers and disruption of Hamas' activities would probably result in more missiles and more evenhanded casualty figures.
Israel views even a hundred Palestinian deaths to save one Israeli life as worth it. Whether that is a mature or responsible approach could probably fill a textbook in back and forth, but I genuinely don't understand people who go, 'One side firing military projectiles at the other killed more people, so they must be the baddies!' It seems a very simplistic and out of context approach to take.
Going total war on Gaza every time rockets get shot their way seems to be ineffective at achieving any goal other than killing human shields.
Not sure why its wrong to point out that Israels offensives in the region are little more than shooting galleries that achieve marginal if any strategic results. If it were otherwise we would have a new one ever couple of years.
One could argue that if there weren't such massive Palestinian casualties as a result of Israeli actions, the Israeli casualties would most likely be higher. Less destroyed launchers and disruption of Hamas' activities would probably result in more missiles and more evenhanded casualty figures.
Israel views even a hundred Palestinian deaths to save one Israeli life as worth it. Whether that is a mature or responsible approach could probably fill a textbook in back and forth, but I genuinely don't understand people who go, 'One side firing military projectiles at the other killed more people, so they must be the baddies!' It seems a very simplistic and out of context approach to take.
Yup, and despite this media seems to take the attitude that because Palestinian civilians are dying that means the Israelis are the baddies. If the Israelis didn't have better equipment than Hamas then they'd presumably have a similar, if not higher (consider that the Palestinian miles aren't attacking purely strategic targets). It just strikes me as being so sensationalist that the media just sees this as such a clean cut issue, whilst ignoring the matter's background and that there's more factors than just one side launching rockets at another (and well hell that the Palestinians are launching any rockets at all, which is being glazed over). I feel bad for the Palestinians, not just the ones that have died, but they really, really, need to get on top of their country, as as it is right now under Hamas it doesn't come across as a very nice place if you don't agree with the government's rhetoric. I'm biased over matters involving Israel naturally, but whilst not being strictly clean cut, that Hamas are launching rockets and using human shields (along with all the other crap they pull. Come they have state sanctioned terrorist training camps) doesn't make them come across as the victims in this situation.
And if the Palestinians didn't agree with Hamas in part would they still be in power? There's been enough revolutions in the region to show one would be possible, and its not as if the Israelis wouldn't be happy if they were gone (I'm surprised that the current government hasn't deposed them already). Meh, don't elect a terrorist organisation and maybe you won't be complaining on the news when that group starts using you as human shields and brain washing your kids (but then again you elected them, so maybe you agree with them, or you were just dumb enough to think they would make Palestine more relatable on the world stage). As it stands now NATO and the UN would rather have the Israelis on their side than Palestine and their allies (who generally have also butted heads with most of the UN's member states), so this matter's hardly going to go anywhere at least based on international involvement. If one of Palestine's allies decides to weigh in then we'll be seeing foreign aid (not soldiers mind), but till then the Israelis could steam roll the whole country and nobody would bat an eye bar saying a few lukewarm words to satisfy the media. Meh, if this current affair actually goes anywhere than just having Hamas quieten down for a few years (as hell are they really doing more than having their DPRK style rhetoric fest at the moment?) call me, as at the moment it doesn't look like where its going anywhere other than maybe the IDF moving in to kill a bunch of terrorists (and yes, naturally a million civilians, all babies of course, with no Israeli casualties, I mean at least according to the media). If this results in Hamas being removed from power then great, but its hardly going to create peace between the two countries.
Unfortunately, things aren't as simple as that. Israel's enacted some fairly atrocious levels of discrimination and oppression against the Palestinian people over the years, and most victims don't take a peaceful response to that sort of thing. When your little sister was killed in a air strike against a set of rockets based down the road, when you're denied a University level education, and you can't find a job because of economic restrictions, you tend to be somewhat inclined to back people who oppose the ones responsible for all of the above.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/13 19:03:52
It would be nice for the Holocaust pity party to end, especially when people display a kind of callousness, shown in this thread, toward the Palestinians.
Ketara wrote: Unfortunately, things aren't as simple as that. Israel's enacted some fairly atrocious levels of discrimination and oppression against the Palestinian people over the years, and most victims don't take a peaceful response to that sort of thing. When your little sister was killed in a air strike against a set of rockets based down the road, when you're denied a University level education, and you can't find a job because of economic restrictions, you tend to be somewhat inclined to back people who oppose the ones responsible for all of the above.
To keep it in perspective, if some crazy Floridians decided to make a habit out of firing rockets at major cities in Georgia, I would fully expect the US government to come in and blast us until we stopped. I would also run for the hills when that government called and said 'we will be blasting this area. Get out', which I believe Israel has been doing. Anyone staying had a chance to run. Even if those guys firing off the rockets were radical seperatists who were sure the South could rise again. I certainly would not expect any sort of federal aid, or to be treated as the other peaceful states until my state stopped blowing random people up.
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