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We all could be wrong. Israel on borderline cordon and search, air strike, and veil threats. How do we not know their main goal is to kill Hamas financially by making them expend all their missiles.
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I note that you didn't answer what your contention was that Israel "only does as much as they think they should too keep international pressure as low as possible" was based upon.
LordofHats wrote: Preferably something other than "keep Gaza a third world crap hole where terrorists can control everyone." That strategy has been tried going on 30 years. Not working out is it? Israel needs to develop a comprehensive policy to weaken Hamas' rule, but it's fairly obvious by now Israel likes keeping Hamas in charge. You don't find it strange they dropped the PLO like rock, after a decade of negotiation and working for a peace, to start trying to court Hamas instead? Israel likes keeping Gaza the way it is.
They do need to get Palestinians on their side, but that'll never happen with their current policies which leave them with no one to turn to but Hamas.
How and when did Israel try to court Hamas?
How long do you think it should take to get Palestinians on Israel's side? How does the Right of Return affect this? How should Israel respond to continued rocket attacks during this time period? Hamas have not held elections since they were initially voted in, and deals harshly with anyone who they deem disloyal. How can the transition be made away from Hamas by the people in Gaza?
LordofHats wrote: Um yeah... That's how the whole morality of war thing gets applied by most people. Bombing an entire village to hit 1 target hasn't been in style since WWII.
Except Israel doesn't bomb an entire village to hit just one target. To claim otherwise flies in the face of reality
LordofHats wrote: I've explained why I think their force is disproportionate. Turning that around and asking what I think is proportionate is just dodging the point and claiming its wrong by asking a different question while never addressing the first. . .This is why Asia is beating us in Math scores people.
You have not explained what you believe should be considered proportionate. In fact you have refused to at every stage. Now you're resorting to flippant comments to deflect
LordofHats wrote: Carpeting Gaza in artillery shells and air bombs and rolling tanks through the area isn't a targeted strike. it's the opposite of a targeted strike.
First it was "shooting galleries", "total war" and now this. I sincerely hope you weren't typing any of those with a straight face
LordofHats wrote: Again. Who said they should do nothing? It's a fairly vast sea between "you're response is disproportionate" and "don't do anything."
That word again, but you still can't tell us what you mean when you say it.
You took that quote beautifully out of context, and choose to ignore the meat of it; "So because no one is hit (thanks to warning systems, shelters, and Iron Dome) Israel should just ignore hundreds of rockets fired at it. Interesting argument.
Their offensives that don't help? Other than kill Hamas leaders, thus losing expertise and skills, destroying stockpiles of weapons so they are not used against Israel, and the fact that Cast Lead stopped rocket attacks from the Lebanon. That level of not helping?" You're trying to force a false comparison between one side that values protecting civilian lives, and another that continually places civilian lives at risk. No comment about the Hamas video that was linked to either that may help explain some of the disparity in casualty figures?
LordofHats wrote: It's not helping because Hamas will just do it again in a few years. One of the criteria of Just War is that the goal must be achievable. Israel's goals in their offensives are laughable. They don't even improve the short term security of their state. They don't falter Hamas at all because really, saying Hamas leaders are dying is like tell the Giants they'll never win a game because a few line backers broke their ankles. Hamas cells have an angry and captive population to pull new line backers from. israel's done an excellent job giving them that.
You keep ignoring the result of Cast Lead because it contradicts this narrative that you keep spinning.
LordofHats wrote: Excellent deductions there Dread. You really have me on the ropes now.
At not stage did you claim that you were treating the Israeli government as separate from the civilian population until your double standard was pointed out. Interesting that you (again) resorted to a flippant comment instead of engaging with the matter
LordofHats wrote: "I'm ignorant of what goes on in this part of the world and choose to just repeat talking points I've heard from other ignorant people and the internet without doing any relevant reading or research and demand that other people do it for me and if they don't they're wrong."
A fine argument.
Not as good as yours of not providing evidence, not refuting evidence that runs counter to your narrative, refusing to actually explain what you mean, gross distortions, accusations of bad faith where absolutely none exist, and just repeating talking points while you trot out the same old unsubstantiated claims about Israel ("shooting gallery", "total war", Israel being unconcerned by civilian deaths, dual standards when speaking about Palestinians being separate from Hamas and not going the same for Israelis and their government etc.)
LordofHats wrote: The one that gets ignored whenever Israel and Russia are involved (which is the one we apply to most everyone else in the world as posted by Ensis Ferrae). Cause like, when's the last time anyone talked seriously about Chechnya?
And which definition is that?
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LordofHats wrote: Unlikely to ever happen. The most likely outcome would be that the upper echelons of Hamas would be deposed by the lower ones, but as some have shown well, Israel keeps killing the lower echelon leaders and leaving the core leaders untouched, almost like they want to keep Hamas in power A more cynical man might even suggest that certain parties in Hamas are telling Israel who to kill to keep the lower ends from getting to ornery.
Seeing as many core leaders live elsewhere (Syria and Lebanon for example) going after them is less easy than it sounds. But lets stick with the cynical man's theory instead....
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/07/15 08:57:37
Gaza City (CNN) -- Israel has accepted an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire. But with Hamas' military wing rejecting the gesture outright, there may be little hope of seeing an end to the near constant exchange of fire that has so far killed more than 190 Palestinians in Gaza.
The Israeli Security Cabinet met early Tuesday morning and reached a decision to halt aerial strikes beginning at 9 a.m. (2 a.m. ET).
"We remain alert and preserve high preparedness levels, both defensive and offensive," military spokesman Peter Lerner said. "If the Hamas terror organization will fire at Israel, we shall respond." he tweeted.
The plan calls for all sides to cease hostilities in Gaza. It also calls for the opening of border crossings, once the security situation is stable, and for high-level talks among those involved.
The response from Hamas' military wing contradicted the one from its political wing.
"We are still discussing and there is no official position yet from from the movement on the Egyptian initiative," Mousa Abumarzook, senior member of Hamas, said on his official Facebook page.
Hamas' military wing, the Qassam Brigades, dismissed any talks of a cease-fire, saying its battle with "the enemy" will "increase in ferocity and intensity."
"We in the Al-Qassam Brigades reject altogether the proposal, which for us is not worth the ink that it was written with."
Since the Cabinet's announcement, rocket fire continued from Gaza into its territory, the Israeli military said.
"We got to the final hurdle and what they should have done is dealt a huge blow to Hamas which would have taken them years to recover from," said Itamar Shimoni, mayor of Ashkelon where many of the rockets have fallen.
'A first step'
Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Executive Committee of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, said the Israeli acceptance of the Egyptian proposal should be seen as "a first step, not the end."
"We have to be cautious of this cycle of violence which the Palestinian people continue to suffer," she said.
Earlier, Hamas mocked the proposal in public, with a spokesman describing it as a "joke."
"We did not receive this declared paper from the Egyptians ... which means it's an initiative for the media. It's not a political initiative," said Osama Hamdan.
Speaking on CNN's "The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer," he continued: "It's not really an initiative. It's not really an idea, what they are trying to do is to corner the Palestinians and to help the Israelis more."
The stakes are high and climbing.
By Tuesday, the death toll from a week of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza had reached 194 with at least 1,400 wounded, according to Palestinian health authorities.
The death toll is now greater than the number of people killed in Gaza during the 2012 conflict between Israel and Hamas.
Civilian casualties
Amid the diplomatic maneuvering, the residents of Gaza are stuck in the middle of the continued fighting. The United Nations has said that most of the people killed by Israel's aerial attacks are civilians.
"I urgently call on the Israeli Security Forces to put an end to attacks against, or endangering, civilians and civilian infrastructure which are contrary to international humanitarian law," said Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner general of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, or UNWRA.
There are now 17,000 refugees taking shelter in 20 schools in Gaza, UNWRA said, and the airstrikes have damaged 47 of its buildings, including clinics, schools and warehouses.
The Israeli military says it uses a variety of methods, including phone calls and leaflets, to warn civilians of impending strikes.
But UNWRA called on Israel to exercise maximum restraint and precaution to avoid more casualties.
Doctor: Human shield around hospital
"Clearly at this stage not enough is being done in that regard," Krahenbuhl said.
'This is tyranny'
Israel said Monday its forces have struck 1,470 "terror targets" across Gaza, including 770 concealed rocket launchers.
But in one area of northern Gaza, Mohamed Abu Hassan said Monday he doesn't understand why his house was severely damaged in an Israeli airstrike that struck the building next door.
There was no unusual activity in the house in the town of Jabalya, he said.
"My son isn't even here. He's working in Libya," Hassan said. Only his wife is at the house.
"Is she fighting Israel?" he asks. "This is tyranny."
15 seconds to seek shelter
Israel has used its Iron Dome defense system against some of the more than 1,088 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel, the military said.
On Monday, the system intercepted a rocket fired from Gaza toward the Israeli border town of Sderot, close to CNN's Blitzer.
"We heard a loud boom," he said. "If you don't seek shelter, you're gonna be in danger because even though the rocket was destroyed in the air, the shrapnel starts coming down very, very quickly."
When sirens go off, people along the border have about 15 second to seek shelter. Farther north in Tel Aviv, where the Iron Dome system also intercepted a rocket Monday, people have about a minute.
More than 60 of the rockets fired from Gaza have targeted Ashkelon, with more flying overhead on Tuesday.
"So as you see Hamas don't accept the cease-fire," resident Merav Danielie said, seeming to accept her fate.
"It won't last because Hamas always will get more bombs from Iran ... so it doesn't really matter," she said. "Six months from today, it will start all over again. As long as they don't have a state they will always hate us."
Seventy percent of Israel's population lies within range of Hamas rocket attacks, according to the Israel Defense Forces. The defense system has intercepted roughly a fifth of the rockets fired, the IDF said early Tuesday.
So far, no Israelis have been killed by the rocket attacks.
Kerry delays trip
Secretary of State John Kerry was preparing a possible trip to the Middle East to lay groundwork for a cease-fire, but several U.S. officials told CNN Monday night that Kerry is postponing the visit to give Egyptian efforts a chance to take root.
One official said the United States wants to give Egypt a chance to reassert itself as a power broker the Middle East, as it did during the 2012 cease-fire.
The current Egyptian President, the ex-military chief Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, has weaker relations with Hamas than former President Mohammed Morsy, who brokered the 2012 deal. Morsy was ousted by the military in 2013.
Earlier, Kerry spoke by phone with Netanyahu and expressed U.S. concerns about escalating tensions. He reiterated that the U.S. is prepared to help bring about a cease-fire, a senior State Department official said.
But "offering facilitation is not enough," Yousef Munayyer of the Washington-based Palestine Center told CNN's "New Day."
"It's important that the United States demand a cease-fire," he said. "There is no military solution to this."
CptJake wrote: Come on, that just isn't close to honest or accurate. You're better than that.
It's a little hyperbolic yeah, but all this 'Israel uses targeted strikes" nonsense deserves a hyperbolic answer.
One of the greatest feats in Israel's history is tricking so much of the world into thinking they're strikes are targeted. There is so much unexploded ordnance in Gaza that it makes western France look like candy land. Two to three dozen Palestinians are killed every year from undetonated ordnance (and are left out of casualty figures). UN teams have been in the country around the clock since 2006 trying to get rid of all of it. You don't get that many explosives in a country because you're being appropriately discriminate in your attacks..
The strikes are targeted. Unexploded ordinance from the past (or even recent times) has zero bearing on strikes being targeted. The Israelis have a process very similar to ours, they are not just indiscriminately chucking bombs from air planes or artillery shells and missiles into Gaza.
You want to talk about indiscriminate chucking of munitions, look at Hamas and the types of rockets they use and the mechanisms they use to pick/hit targets.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: You want to talk about indiscriminate chucking of munitions, look at Hamas and the types of rockets they use and the mechanisms they use to pick/hit targets.
That chicken they've trained to peck at a map of Israel is still alive?
Damn those militant, warmongering Israelis for pushing the peace process!
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
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I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: I note that you didn't answer what your contention was that Israel "only does as much as they think they should too keep international pressure as low as possible" was based upon.
The basic principle that any country will do as much as they think they can get away with, and how every time this happens Israel keeps the roller coaster going till the world starts paying attention after a few days and they suddenly slow down now that everyone is watching.
How and when did Israel try to court Hamas?
And this is the point where it becomes blatantly apparent you're not that familiar with the conflict. Israel is constantly courting Hamas despite their claims that the PLO is the legitimate government of Palestinians. These days they pretty much ignore the PLO completely and refuse to move on any action without Hamas' agreement, which they know is never going to get very far.
In a certain light this is reasonable as everyone has to deal with Hamas right now, but Israel doesn't have any sort of plan revolved around actually removing Hamas from power or trying to get the PLO swept back in.
How long do you think it should take to get Palestinians on Israel's side?
At this point? A long ass time. You can't dig yourself a 80 year hole of conflict and expect to get out of said hole quick and clean.
How does the Right of Return affect this?
Most Palestinians don't even want to return, they just want the right recognized, which is kind of silly but w/e. Even if Gaza were to turn out to be a pretty great place to live I doubt most of the refugees who've fled to surrounding countries would want to go back (though said countries might well start forcing them).
How should Israel respond to continued rocket attacks during this time period?
Israel could try not launching a military campaign searching for needles in the haystack for one.
Hamas have not held elections since they were initially voted in, and deals harshly with anyone who they deem disloyal. How can the transition be made away from Hamas by the people in Gaza?
By offering a better option. Time might allow the PLO to sweep itself back in, but any plan to remove Hamas from power would need radical changes to Israeli policy in the region. End their blockade and start nation building the area. To an extent however, Israel would need to brace itself to suck up some hurt to achieve the goal, because continued offensives over individual incidents like what started this current round of conflict is only going to keep progress from being made.
Except Israel doesn't bomb an entire village to hit just one target. To claim otherwise flies in the face of reality
In a literal sense? There aren't that many villages actually in Gaza cause its pretty urban but in a realistic sense;
Leveling most of a block is pretty comparable.
You have not explained what you believe should be considered proportionate. In fact you have refused to at every stage. Now you're resorting to flippant comments to deflect
One deflect deserves another. It's like a game of pong.
First it was "shooting galleries", "total war" and now this. I sincerely hope you weren't typing any of those with a straight face
My face is a little slanted from all the face palms so straight face is kind of impossible.
You took that quote beautifully out of context, and choose to ignore the meat of it; [u]"So because no one is hit (thanks to warning systems, shelters, and Iron Dome) Israel should just ignore hundreds of rockets fired at it. Interesting argument.
Casualties from them remain low because rockets just aren't that deadly. Iron Dome is not that effective against them (it only stops 25%) but really I don't think it was ever intended to be. The point of Iron Dome is preparation for the inevitable day Hamas gets its hands on smart munitions*. Now that they have drones that day is getting closer.
Since 2001 64 civilians have been killed by rockets and mortars from Gaza. Israel's offensives have killed over 3000 civilians (moderate estimate). Israelis injured in the fighting in the same time frame number around 1400. Palestinians number around 8000. Really, you're trying to take a bloody cheek and use it to justify a brutal mugging. Saying "Hamas is using human shields" isn't really making up for it.
*And because the US wants to see such a system in practice so we helped them out on it.
You're trying to force a false comparison between one side that values protecting civilian lives, and another that continually places civilian lives at risk.
No I'm forcing a valid comparison between two sides, one that shows indifference towards civilians in the line of fire, and another that likes putting them there because they know the first is indifferent.
No comment about the Hamas video that was linked to either that may help explain some of the disparity in casualty figures?
The disparity in casualty figures is that Israel pretends some of the civies they kill are militants, Hamas pretends some of the militants were civies, and the UN gets to go in and figure out what the numbers actually were which is pretty much always somewhere in the middle from what both sides give.
You keep ignoring the result of Cast Lead because it contradicts this narrative that you keep spinning.
Cast Lead? Yeah. That's a great refutation you've come up with there It's not like Cast Lead happened in 2008 and Echo Return and Pillar of Defense followed a few years later, which is kind of what I keep hinting at here. Now we've got Protective Edge, and in a few years there'll be another fancily named offensive after both sides have simmered down a bit.
If anything Cast Lead had the benefit of resulting in a decline in the use of force by Israel, cause Israel really got hammered for that one. On the most bright side it lead to both Israel and Hamas toning it down a bit because it was getting hard for both sides to maintain their respective charades of full victim hood when they were going at it that harshly.
Interesting that you (again) resorted to a flippant comment instead of engaging with the matter
I just find it laughable that the best you can come up with is that I choose to abstractly use 'Israel' in reference to the discussion.
Not as good as yours of not providing evidence,
Provide no evidence. Insult the other side for not providing evidence.
not refuting evidence that runs counter to your narrative
Patent nonsense isn't worth refuting (or rather I've grown tired of trying at all in the case of Israel-Palestine conflict). It's funny to read though.
refusing to actually explain what you mean
I have, you in your usual style just ignore it.
gross distortions,
Pot. Kettle.
accusations of bad faith where absolutely none exist,
Meeting bad faith with good faith just ends up with more bad faith being returned. Meeting it with more bad faith is at least somewhat entertaining
and just repeating talking points
I keep hoping they might sink in. I have a skeptical yet, slightly optimistic, outlook on the human race to maintain you know.
And which definition is that?
And this is where you show you don't read as there is really only one definition of proportionate force, it was posted here, and I even named who posted it and you still ask the question and pretend I'm the one trotting out dishonest arguments
Seeing as many core leaders live elsewhere (Syria and Lebanon for example) going after them is less easy than it sounds. But lets stick with the cynical man's theory instead....
The US doesn't shirk from violated sovereign air space to get its guys and Israel is a whole lot more dedicated to killing targets when they want to than we are
The strikes are targeted. Unexploded ordinance from the past (or even recent times) has zero bearing on strikes being targeted.
Most of the stuff from 2004 (and to Israel's credit they at least toned down from that level of overkill) has been cleaned out for years. What's there now is what Israel has put in since 2008-onwards. There'll be more now.
The Israelis have a process very similar to ours, they are not just indiscriminately chucking bombs from air planes or artillery shells and missiles into Gaza.
And yet, almost 3/4 of the people they kill are non-combatants.
You want to talk about indiscriminate chucking of munitions, look at Hamas and the types of rockets they use and the mechanisms they use to pick/hit targets.
Little Timmy throwing wild punches stops justifying little Johnny throwing wild punches back around the fourth grade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/15 13:44:09
But they do not target non-combatants, unlike Hamas. Big difference. Add in Hamas very deliberately uses non-combatants to shield/screen caches, launch sites, and leadership nodes.
Again, they types of munitions/delivery systems the Israelis use are chosen very deliberately to minimize collateral damage. You can never eliminate it completely, not when fighting groups like Hamas.
Go ahead and explain why you believe the Israelis are not targeting their strikes. What specifically besides unexploded ordinance (which is a very silly reason) influences your thoughts?
I mean seriously, they are destroying very specific houses, not city blocks or even sections. You can't get much more targeted than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/15 14:16:51
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: But they do not target non-combatants, unlike Hamas. Big difference. Add in Hamas very deliberately uses non-combatants to shield/screen caches, launch sites, and leadership nodes.
Which, is a "War Crime™" in itself.
Again, they types of munitions/delivery systems the Israelis use are chosen very deliberately to minimize collateral damage. You can never eliminate it completely, not when fighting groups like Hamas.
Go ahead and explain why you believe the Israelis are not targeting their strikes. What specifically besides unexploded ordinance (which is a very silly reason) influences your thoughts?
I mean seriously, they are destroying very specific houses, not city blocks or even sections. You can't get much more targeted than that.
LordofHats wrote: The basic principle that any country will do as much as they think they can get away with, and how every time this happens Israel keeps the roller coaster going till the world starts paying attention after a few days and they suddenly slow down now that everyone is watching.
So your contention is rooted in a sweeping generalization, which has no more basis than your own bias.
LordofHats wrote: And this is the point where it becomes blatantly apparent you're not that familiar with the conflict. Israel is constantly courting Hamas despite their claims that the PLO is the legitimate government of Palestinians. These days they pretty much ignore the PLO completely and refuse to move on any action without Hamas' agreement, which they know is never going to get very far.
In a certain light this is reasonable as everyone has to deal with Hamas right now, but Israel doesn't have any sort of plan revolved around actually removing Hamas from power or trying to get the PLO swept back in.
So nothing to substantiate your position again, just another lazy swipe.
LordofHats wrote: At this point? A long ass time. You can't dig yourself a 80 year hole of conflict and expect to get out of said hole quick and clean.
And what should Israel do during this time should it come under further attack? How does Israel court the Palestinians without provoking Hamas, or strengthening Hamas?
LordofHats wrote: Most Palestinians don't even want to return, they just want the right recognized, which is kind of silly but w/e. Even if Gaza were to turn out to be a pretty great place to live I doubt most of the refugees who've fled to surrounding countries would want to go back (though said countries might well start forcing them).
Do you have a source for that claim? Because that completely contradicts the one state solution that many Palestinians have been pressing for, and not giving ground on (including the PLO)
LordofHats wrote: Israel could try not launching a military campaign searching for needles in the haystack for one.
Then what do you propose they do in response to hundreds of rockets being fired at them?
LordofHats wrote: By offering a better option. Time might allow the PLO to sweep itself back in, but any plan to remove Hamas from power would need radical changes to Israeli policy in the region. End their blockade and start nation building the area. To an extent however, Israel would need to brace itself to suck up some hurt to achieve the goal, because continued offensives over individual incidents like what started this current round of conflict is only going to keep progress from being made.
Given that Hamas kill Palestinians who disagree with them how likely it is do you think that there exists the conditions for a better option to flourish? If they were to rely on Israel for protection any new regime will be seen as lackeys. Hamas were unable to keep their agreement for a unity government with the PLO, adding a third group would not make this any easier.
Also the blockade is there to help prevent war material reaching Hamas for use against Israel. Why should Israel be the ones to make the sacrifices to her security by easing the blockade? Israel withdrew from Gaza and suffered rocket attacks shortly thereafter. The lesson being that Hamas will not reciprocate when their goal is the destruction of the Jewish State.
I'm always amazed that the demand is that Israel be the one to capitulate when it is Hamas and other militant groups that are the instigators.
LordofHats wrote: In a literal sense? There aren't that many villages actually in Gaza cause its pretty urban but in a realistic sense;
Your source- "Islamic Invitation Turkey... it is Hizbullah that will certainly triumph. Qur'an 5/56"
That seems like such a reputable site, with a limited bias. . . Pity that is the only actual source that you have provided in our exchanges.
I am unable to do an image search while at work, but I wonder if this is an older image from Iraq or Syria that has been re-used. The BBC were caught out by this already in this conflict. Or was this a site that was also being used as a weapons cache in a civilian area?
LordofHats wrote: One deflect deserves another. It's like a game of pong.
So you're still unable to give an honest answer
LordofHats wrote: My face is a little slanted from all the face palms so straight face is kind of impossible.
Reading your own ridiculously hyperbolic posts may produce that reaction
LordofHats wrote: Casualties from them remain low because rockets just aren't that deadly. Iron Dome is not that effective against them (it only stops 25%) but really I don't think it was ever intended to be. The point of Iron Dome is preparation for the inevitable day Hamas gets its hands on smart munitions*. Now that they have drones that day is getting closer.
Since 2001 64 civilians have been killed by rockets and mortars from Gaza. Israel's offensives have killed over 3000 civilians (moderate estimate). Israelis injured in the fighting in the same time frame number around 1400. Palestinians number around 8000. Really, you're trying to take a bloody cheek and use it to justify a brutal mugging. Saying "Hamas is using human shields" isn't really making up for it.
*And because the US wants to see such a system in practice so we helped them out on it.
So in your estimation it is ineffective against dumb munitions, but will prove it's worth against smart munitions..... is this another groundless assertion or do you have something to support this claim?
Hamas are using human shields. And hiding arms in civilian areas. And launching rockets from civilian areas. Hamas refuses to let civilians leave areas that Israel gives warnings about. Hamas glorifies martyrdom. That is a very stark contrast to Israel's approach of early warning systems and shelters. But continue to believe your fantasy of "total war" and a one sided "shooting gallery"
LordofHats wrote: No I'm forcing a valid comparison between two sides, one that shows indifference towards civilians in the line of fire, and another that likes putting them there because they know the first is indifferent.
You mean the side that minimizes civilian casualties, uses smart munitions (often with limited payloads), and warns civilians to evacuate an area before a strike? That "indifference towards civilians"
LordofHats wrote: The disparity in casualty figures is that Israel pretends some of the civies they kill are militants, Hamas pretends some of the militants were civies, and the UN gets to go in and figure out what the numbers actually were which is pretty much always somewhere in the middle from what both sides give.
That is an amazing conclusion to draw from that video where Hamas admits to using human shields. It is almost as if you are really trying to gloss over their conduct which leads directly to civilian loss of life, and then use these same casualties a a rod to beat Israel
LordofHats wrote: Cast Lead? Yeah. That's a great refutation you've come up with there It's not like Cast Lead happened in 2008 and Echo Return and Pillar of Defense followed a few years later, which is kind of what I keep hinting at here. Now we've got Protective Edge, and in a few years there'll be another fancily named offensive after both sides have simmered down a bit.
If anything Cast Lead had the benefit of resulting in a decline in the use of force by Israel, cause Israel really got hammered for that one. On the most bright side it lead to both Israel and Hamas toning it down a bit because it was getting hard for both sides to maintain their respective charades of full victim hood when they were going at it that harshly.
Thank you, it is a great refutation. Especially when you consider that afterwards rocket fire from Lebanon almost completely ceased
LordofHats wrote: I just find it laughable that the best you can come up with is that I choose to abstractly use 'Israel' in reference to the discussion.
When you claim to make the distinction between the Israeli population and the government, and don't, yet make that very distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas then expect to be called out on it
LordofHats wrote: Provide no evidence. Insult the other side for not providing evidence.
What evidence did you believe I had omitted?
LordofHats wrote: I keep hoping they might sink in. I have a skeptical yet, slightly optimistic, outlook on the human race to maintain you know.
Accuse others of using talking points, use them yourself. I think you may have said something in relation to this...."Pot. Kettle."
LordofHats wrote: And this is where you show you don't read as there is really only one definition of proportionate force, it was posted here, and I even named who posted it and you still ask the question and pretend I'm the one trotting out dishonest arguments
I can't imagine why you would think that after you refuse to say what you mean...
LordofHats wrote: The US doesn't shirk from violated sovereign air space to get its guys and Israel is a whole lot more dedicated to killing targets when they want to than we are
Have you missed the outcry over this, or do you enjoy being contrary?
LordofHats wrote: Patent nonsense isn't worth refuting (or rather I've grown tired of trying at all in the case of Israel-Palestine conflict). It's funny to read though.
. . .
Pot. Kettle.
. . .
Meeting bad faith with good faith just ends up with more bad faith being returned. Meeting it with more bad faith is at least somewhat entertaining
Now it just looks like you're just trolling at this stage. No need for me to respond any further to you on this matter then
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/15 16:21:30
Israel's offensives have killed over 3000 civilians (moderate estimate).
By who's counting?? If you remember, the US conducted that survey in Iraq, asking how many people had family members killed, etc.... and if THAT number was to be believed, we had killed something like 10 million people in a matter of 3 years
Israel's offensives have killed over 3000 civilians (moderate estimate).
By who's counting?? If you remember, the US conducted that survey in Iraq, asking how many people had family members killed, etc.... and if THAT number was to be believed, we had killed something like 10 million people in a matter of 3 years
CptJake wrote: Go ahead and explain why you believe the Israelis are not targeting their strikes. What specifically besides unexploded ordinance (which is a very silly reason) influences your thoughts?
There's a very marginal difference between not targeting non-combatants, and choosing to ignore the non-combatant casualties when you decide to launch a 'targeted' strike. It reaches a point where Israel should be called to task over the rising death rate and the lack of progress in the conflict. This current round in particular has been especially bad thus far in producing civilian deaths.
I mean seriously, they are destroying very specific houses, not city blocks or even sections
Yeah, they target them with artillery shells and air campaigns, hit their target and everything else immediately around it.
They're using target saturation weapons in a urban populated area. That's the shoddiest a targeted strike can get. Even at the height of the Iraq war we were doing a better job.
Which, is a "War Crime™" in itself.
Responding to a war crime like this is easily construed as a war crime itself. One doesn't justify the other.
By who's counting
UN. Hamas would have you believe that everyone who isn't a militant is a child
which has no more basis than your own bias.
That's pretty much this entire thread in a nut shell (and any thread that has ever appeared on Israel-Palestine).
How does Israel court the Palestinians without provoking Hamas, or strengthening Hamas?
Israel could have taken steps to end this years ago when the Road for Peace plan was accepted by Israel and the PLO, but Israel demanded the PLO live up the agreement while refusing to do so themselves. The PLO (not sure if they were being noble or stupid) actually went along with it and Hamas ended up supplanting them. Israel remained steadfast in refusing to stop building settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, and comically, when they finally got around to it, it was too late because Hamas was taking over and 2006 Hamas was a lot worse than current Hamas (this is back when Israel actually went after Hamas' leaders and killed them). They might want to start by living up to their initial agreement to cease building all settlements in all the occupied territories.
Pretending the blockade is working is ludicrous. It's not. If they open the border, then ground is set for a reconstruction process. They need to get back behind the PLO, as that's the most realistic option to remove Hamas. There is no way to remove Hamas without provoking them, but if Israel started working with Palestinians rather than against them they'd find attacking Hamas a far easier task. The Palestinians don't like Hamas. Hamas wore out its ivory gloss coating many years ago.
Do you have a source for that claim?
And you say I make lazy swipes but then you say this which kind of furthers my claim.
The older generation that leads Hamas and the PLO might want to go back, but the younger generation doesn't namely because they've never been there to begin with. Most Palestinians have been displaced by the conflict and no longer live in Palestine. The longer the conflict goes the less likely they are to return. Further, the PLO has stated for years that it's not interested in leading Palestinians back into Israel, something they took some flak for many years ago, but when reporters investigated the right of return issue in 2010 they found overwhelmingly that Palestinians want the right recognized as a matter of principle but aren't interested in moving back (many said they would like to visit).
So in your estimation it is ineffective against dumb munitions, but will prove it's worth against smart munitions..... is this another groundless assertion or do you have something to support this claim?
Some people go shooting, some go drinking, some go reading. Iron Dome specifically was designed to target rockets and mortar grenades, but those targets are small, hard to hit, and building this kind of a defense system solely to stop them makes little sense. It's fairly obvious Iron Dome is a joint project by the US and Israel to build a practical proof of concept for interception systems. For Israel its a useful testing ground and platform to expand on, as it's only a matter of time until Hamas finally gets something more deadly and Israel is planning ahead for when that happens. Now that Hamas has gotten its hands on drones, that gak will hit the fan soon.
It is almost as if you are really trying to gloss over their conduct which leads directly to civilian loss of life
I don't really see one act as justifying the other.
Especially when you consider that afterwards rocket fire from Lebanon almost completely ceased
Rocket fire from Lebanon has never been as significant or as long term as rocket fire from Gaza. Stopping rocket fire from Gaza is okay as an immediate goal, but Israel never follows any of it up with any sort of plan to fix the problem long term, meaning the current conflict remains. Defining short term as 'next year' is comical to me. If there's just going to be another rocket attack in a few years, then your policy for protecting your citizens needs to be adjusted.
Have you missed the outcry over this, or do you enjoy being contrary?
I don't particularly care about the outcry over the US drone campaign. By all rights the US drone campaign has been at least somewhat effective in achieving its goals and has a civilian casualty rate somewhere between 1:5 and 2:5 at the worst, which blows Israel out of the water. Turns out we're a lot better at hitting targets in a populated area without killing a whole bunch of extras and we drone strike militants hiding among civilians all the time.
Now it just looks like you're just trolling at this stage. No need for me to respond any further to you on this matter then
Well there's very little point in being serious with many of things you say.
If you want to look at the collective punishment its economic. Its the cutting off of social services and medicines. On a similar note I have always found it strange that people were more outraged by abu graib than by the estimated half a million children who died of preventable diseases. A far crueler death than by bombings.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever
Crablezworth wrote: Pretty much. I love the shot of the reporter in tel aviv with a golf shirt and the other In gaza with his vest on.
Awful nice of Hamas to develop that app that warns Israeli citizens of rocket strikes. Man, Jon Stewart and his crew are never wrong in their take on stuff.
Palestinian firefighters and residents try to extinguish fire at a house destroyed by an overnight Israeli air strike, on July 16, 2014, in Gaza City. New Israeli air and tank strikes in Gaza early today killed several people, medics said, bringing the death toll from Israel's operation in the besieged Palestinian territory to 204. AFP PHOTO / MAHMUD HAMS (Photo credit should read MAHMUD HAMS/AFP/Getty Images)
GAZA/JERUSALEM, July 16 (Reuters) - Israel resumed its air strikes in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday a day after holding its fire in deference to an Egyptian-proposed cease-fire deal that failed to get Hamas militants to halt rocket attacks.
Attacks in the Gaza Strip killed at least seven Palestinians in the early hours of Wednesday, Gaza health officials said, and destroyed the house of Mahmoud Zahar - who is believed to be in hiding elsewhere - in the first apparent targeting of a top Hamas political leader.
The week-old conflict seemed to be at a turning point on Tuesday, with Hamas defying Arab and Western calls to cease fire and Israel threatening to step up an offensive that could include an invasion of the densely populated enclave.
The Israeli military said on Wednesday it had sent out warning messages to residents in the northern Gaza Strip to evacuate their homes by 0800 (0500 GMT) ahead of renewed attacks.
Palestinian officials said residents in two Gaza City neighborhoods had received the warnings but Gaza Interior Ministry told people not to heed the Israeli messages and dismissed them as psychological warfare.
Gaza militants kept up rocket salvoes into Israel, firing more than 150 rockets at Israel since Tuesday, when the truce was to begin.
Under the blueprint announced by Egypt - Gaza's neighbor and whose military-backed government has been at odds with Islamist Hamas - a mutual "de-escalation" was to have begun at 9 a.m. (0600 GMT), with hostilities ceasing within 12 hours.
Hamas' armed wing, the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, rejected the ceasefire deal, a proposal that addressed in only general terms some of its key demands, and said its battle with Israel would "increase in ferocity and intensity".
But Moussa Abu Marzouk, a Hamas political official who was in Cairo, said the movement, which is seeking a deal that would ease the Egyptian and Israeli border restrictions throttling Gaza's economy, had made no final decision on Cairo's proposal.
Israel, citing the persistent salvoes, resumed attacks in Gaza six hours after implementation of the truce was to have begun. The military said it targeted at least 20 of Hamas' hidden rocket launchers, tunnels and weapons storage facilities.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in broadcast remarks late on Tuesday that Israel had no choice but to "expand and intensify" its campaign on Hamas, though he did not specifically mention the possibility of a ground incursion.
The Israeli security cabinet which met into the early hours of Wednesday had discussed a limited ground operation, an Israeli official said.
TRUCE TERMS
Gaza medical officials say 195 Palestinians, including at least 150 civilians, among them 31 children, have been killed.
One Israeli has been killed in the fighting. Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system intercepted 20 of the Hamas projectiles, including two over the Tel Aviv area, and the rest caused no damage or casualties.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack against Israel's commercial capital, which has been targeted frequently since the war began, as well as for the rocket that killed the Israeli man along the border.
The Iron Dome has shot down most projectiles liable to hit Israeli towns and cities, but the rocket salvoes have made a rush to shelters a daily routine for hundreds of thousands of people across the country.
Israel has mobilized tens of thousands of troops for a threatened invasion into the enclave, that is home to 1.8 million Palestinians, if the rocket volleys persisted.
The surge in hostilities over the past week was prompted by the murder last month of three Jewish seminary students in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and the revenge killing on July 2 of a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem. Israel said on Monday three Jews in police custody had confessed to killing the Palestinian.
Speaking in Vienna, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry supported Israel: "I cannot condemn strongly enough the actions of Hamas in so brazenly firing rockets, in multiple numbers, in the face of a goodwill effort (to secure) a cease-fire."
Netanyahu, whose security cabinet voted 6-2 earlier on Tuesday to accept the truce, had cautioned that Israel would respond strongly if rockets kept flying.
He expected the "full support from the responsible members of the international community" for any intensification of Israeli attacks in response to Hamas spurning a truce.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who reached an agreement with Hamas in April that led to the formation of a unity government last month, called for acceptance of the proposal, the official Palestinian news agency WAFA said.
Abbas was expected to arrive in Cairo on Wednesday for talks with President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the Palestinian leader's spokesman said. The Arab League, at a meeting on Monday, also welcomed the cease-fire plan.
Under the proposal announced by Egypt's Foreign Ministry, high-level delegations from Israel and the Palestinian factions would hold separate talks in Cairo within 48 hours to consolidate the cease-fire with "confidence-building measures".
Hamas leaders have said any deal must include an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza and a recommitment to a truce reached in an eight-day war there in 2012.
Hamas also wants Egypt to ease curbs at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, imposed after the military ousted President Mohamed Mursi, an Islamist, a year ago.
The Egyptian proposal made no mention of Rafah or when restrictions might be eased.
Hamas has faced a cash crisis and Gaza's economic hardship has deepened as a result of Egypt's destruction of cross-border smuggling tunnels. Egyptian authorities also accuse Hamas of assisting anti-government Islamist militants in Egypt's Sinai peninsula, an accusation that the Palestinian group denies.
Hamas has said it also wants the release of hundreds of its activists arrested in the West Bank while Israel searched for the three missing teenagers.
The proposed truce also made no mention of the detainees. (Additional reporting by Allyn Fisher-Ilan, Noah Browning in Gaza and Michael Georgy and Yasmine Saleh in Cairo; Writing by Maayan Lubell and Jeffrey Heller; Editing by Robert Birsel)
Palestinian firefighters and residents try to extinguish fire at a house destroyed by an overnight Israeli air strike, on July 16, 2014, in Gaza City. New Israeli air and tank strikes in Gaza early today killed several people, medics said, bringing the death toll from Israel's operation in the besieged Palestinian territory to 204. AFP PHOTO / MAHMUD HAMS (Photo credit should read MAHMUD HAMS/AFP/Getty Images)
GAZA/JERUSALEM, July 16 (Reuters) - Israel resumed its air strikes in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday a day after holding its fire in deference to an Egyptian-proposed cease-fire deal that failed to get Hamas militants to halt rocket attacks.
Attacks in the Gaza Strip killed at least seven Palestinians in the early hours of Wednesday, Gaza health officials said, and destroyed the house of Mahmoud Zahar - who is believed to be in hiding elsewhere - in the first apparent targeting of a top Hamas political leader.
The week-old conflict seemed to be at a turning point on Tuesday, with Hamas defying Arab and Western calls to cease fire and Israel threatening to step up an offensive that could include an invasion of the densely populated enclave.
The Israeli military said on Wednesday it had sent out warning messages to residents in the northern Gaza Strip to evacuate their homes by 0800 (0500 GMT) ahead of renewed attacks.
Palestinian officials said residents in two Gaza City neighborhoods had received the warnings but Gaza Interior Ministry told people not to heed the Israeli messages and dismissed them as psychological warfare.
Gaza militants kept up rocket salvoes into Israel, firing more than 150 rockets at Israel since Tuesday, when the truce was to begin.
Under the blueprint announced by Egypt - Gaza's neighbor and whose military-backed government has been at odds with Islamist Hamas - a mutual "de-escalation" was to have begun at 9 a.m. (0600 GMT), with hostilities ceasing within 12 hours.
Hamas' armed wing, the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, rejected the ceasefire deal, a proposal that addressed in only general terms some of its key demands, and said its battle with Israel would "increase in ferocity and intensity".
But Moussa Abu Marzouk, a Hamas political official who was in Cairo, said the movement, which is seeking a deal that would ease the Egyptian and Israeli border restrictions throttling Gaza's economy, had made no final decision on Cairo's proposal.
Israel, citing the persistent salvoes, resumed attacks in Gaza six hours after implementation of the truce was to have begun. The military said it targeted at least 20 of Hamas' hidden rocket launchers, tunnels and weapons storage facilities.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in broadcast remarks late on Tuesday that Israel had no choice but to "expand and intensify" its campaign on Hamas, though he did not specifically mention the possibility of a ground incursion.
The Israeli security cabinet which met into the early hours of Wednesday had discussed a limited ground operation, an Israeli official said.
TRUCE TERMS
Gaza medical officials say 195 Palestinians, including at least 150 civilians, among them 31 children, have been killed.
One Israeli has been killed in the fighting. Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system intercepted 20 of the Hamas projectiles, including two over the Tel Aviv area, and the rest caused no damage or casualties.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack against Israel's commercial capital, which has been targeted frequently since the war began, as well as for the rocket that killed the Israeli man along the border.
The Iron Dome has shot down most projectiles liable to hit Israeli towns and cities, but the rocket salvoes have made a rush to shelters a daily routine for hundreds of thousands of people across the country.
Israel has mobilized tens of thousands of troops for a threatened invasion into the enclave, that is home to 1.8 million Palestinians, if the rocket volleys persisted.
The surge in hostilities over the past week was prompted by the murder last month of three Jewish seminary students in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and the revenge killing on July 2 of a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem. Israel said on Monday three Jews in police custody had confessed to killing the Palestinian.
Speaking in Vienna, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry supported Israel: "I cannot condemn strongly enough the actions of Hamas in so brazenly firing rockets, in multiple numbers, in the face of a goodwill effort (to secure) a cease-fire."
Netanyahu, whose security cabinet voted 6-2 earlier on Tuesday to accept the truce, had cautioned that Israel would respond strongly if rockets kept flying.
He expected the "full support from the responsible members of the international community" for any intensification of Israeli attacks in response to Hamas spurning a truce.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who reached an agreement with Hamas in April that led to the formation of a unity government last month, called for acceptance of the proposal, the official Palestinian news agency WAFA said.
Abbas was expected to arrive in Cairo on Wednesday for talks with President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the Palestinian leader's spokesman said. The Arab League, at a meeting on Monday, also welcomed the cease-fire plan.
Under the proposal announced by Egypt's Foreign Ministry, high-level delegations from Israel and the Palestinian factions would hold separate talks in Cairo within 48 hours to consolidate the cease-fire with "confidence-building measures".
Hamas leaders have said any deal must include an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza and a recommitment to a truce reached in an eight-day war there in 2012.
Hamas also wants Egypt to ease curbs at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, imposed after the military ousted President Mohamed Mursi, an Islamist, a year ago.
The Egyptian proposal made no mention of Rafah or when restrictions might be eased.
Hamas has faced a cash crisis and Gaza's economic hardship has deepened as a result of Egypt's destruction of cross-border smuggling tunnels. Egyptian authorities also accuse Hamas of assisting anti-government Islamist militants in Egypt's Sinai peninsula, an accusation that the Palestinian group denies.
Hamas has said it also wants the release of hundreds of its activists arrested in the West Bank while Israel searched for the three missing teenagers.
The proposed truce also made no mention of the detainees. (Additional reporting by Allyn Fisher-Ilan, Noah Browning in Gaza and Michael Georgy and Yasmine Saleh in Cairo; Writing by Maayan Lubell and Jeffrey Heller; Editing by Robert Birsel)
What a shame that doesn't support what the cynical man thought earlier
Ironclad Warlord wrote: If you want to look at the collective punishment its economic. Its the cutting off of social services and medicines. On a similar note I have always found it strange that people were more outraged by abu graib than by the estimated half a million children who died of preventable diseases. A far crueler death than by bombings.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
If Hamas really cared about their people, they'd smuggle in food and medicine instead of weapons.
Israel wouldn't shoot back if they weren't getting shot at first. Poke the tiger, get the teeth. Is the tiger wrong for mauling you when you irritate it?
And if you don't like the tiger, either learn to live with it or move. The tiger isn't going anywhere.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If Hamas really cared about their people, they'd smuggle in food and medicine instead of weapons.
Israel wouldn't shoot back if they weren't getting shot at first. Poke the tiger, get the teeth. Is the tiger wrong for mauling you when you irritate it?
And if you don't like the tiger, either learn to live with it or move. The tiger isn't going anywhere.
I'm sure that Hamas being badakes it alright for starving the entire Gaza Strip.
Grey Templar wrote: If Hamas really cared about their people, they'd smuggle in food and medicine instead of weapons.
Israel wouldn't shoot back if they weren't getting shot at first. Poke the tiger, get the teeth. Is the tiger wrong for mauling you when you irritate it?
And if you don't like the tiger, either learn to live with it or move. The tiger isn't going anywhere.
I'm sure that Hamas being badakes it alright for starving the entire Gaza Strip.
Actually, it does.
A few foreigners suffering vs your own countryman getting killed by a well funded terrorist organization which has an open supply line.
If you were in Israel's position you'd make the same choice.
The innocence of some of the Palestinians shouldn't allow terrorists free reign over an area.
The real question is why are the "good" Palestinians so stupid they don't kick Hamas out when they are the reason for their suffering.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: If Hamas really cared about their people, they'd smuggle in food and medicine instead of weapons.
Israel wouldn't shoot back if they weren't getting shot at first. Poke the tiger, get the teeth. Is the tiger wrong for mauling you when you irritate it?
And if you don't like the tiger, either learn to live with it or move. The tiger isn't going anywhere.
I'm sure that Hamas being badakes it alright for starving the entire Gaza Strip.
Actually, it does.
A few foreigners suffering vs your own countryman getting killed by a well funded terrorist organization which has an open supply line.
If you were in Israel's position you'd make the same choice.
The innocence of some of the Palestinians shouldn't allow terrorists free reign over an area.
The real question is why are the "good" Palestinians so stupid they don't kick Hamas out when they are the reason for their suffering.
"A few"
And perhaps because, well... Unarmed citizens vs. heavily armed terrorrists? Uh..
Grey Templar wrote: If Hamas really cared about their people, they'd smuggle in food and medicine instead of weapons.
Israel wouldn't shoot back if they weren't getting shot at first. Poke the tiger, get the teeth. Is the tiger wrong for mauling you when you irritate it?
And if you don't like the tiger, either learn to live with it or move. The tiger isn't going anywhere.
I'm sure that Hamas being badakes it alright for starving the entire Gaza Strip.
Actually, it does.
A few foreigners suffering vs your own countryman getting killed by a well funded terrorist organization which has an open supply line.
If you were in Israel's position you'd make the same choice.
The innocence of some of the Palestinians shouldn't allow terrorists free reign over an area.
The real question is why are the "good" Palestinians so stupid they don't kick Hamas out when they are the reason for their suffering.
"A few"
And perhaps because, well... Unarmed citizens vs. heavily armed terrorrists? Uh..
Hamas won an election. Let's not try to pretend like Palestinians and Hamas are two discrete groups of people. Many Palestinians support Hamas.
Hamas won an election. Let's not try to pretend like Palestinians and Hamas are two discrete groups of people. Many Palestinians support Hamas.
They won an election in 2006 when they did have overwhelming support after people were convinced the PLO were Israeli puppets. Turns out using your voters as human shields tends to bleed that support away after 8 years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/16 22:24:54
A more cynical man might even suggest that certain parties in Hamas are telling Israel who to kill to keep the lower ends from getting to ornery. 
