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 LordofHats wrote:

Hamas won an election. Let's not try to pretend like Palestinians and Hamas are two discrete groups of people. Many Palestinians support Hamas.

They won an election in 2006 when they did have overwhelming support after people were convinced the PLO were Israeli puppets. Turns out using your voters as human shields tends to bleed that support away after 8 years.

And this is somehow Israel's fault I assume?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
And this is somehow Israel's fault I assume?

The image that the PLO were Israeli puppets was the PLO's own fault. Israel refused to pull back its settlements and the PLO kind of laid back and took it. A harsher stance over continued construction could have helped them avoid that image but whether it would have stopped Hamas is questionable (cause while they had support, I doubt anyone would put it past Hamas to rig the vote if they thought they might lose or just take power by force). Many Palestinians at the time became convinced the PLO was either weak, or in Israel's pocket. By the time Israel finally got around to pulling out of Gaza it was too late as Hamas was already on the road to power, and they never pulled out of the West Bank.

EDIT: Lebanon and Syria didn't help either. Both actively worked against the PLO at the time and helped to arm little baby Hamas.

The PLO was weak, their political and security infrastructure was largely obliterated following the 2nd Intafadah.

 Grey Templar wrote:



The real question is why are the "good" Palestinians so stupid they don't kick Hamas out when they are the reason for their suffering.

This in some part goes back to the above. When the PLO ceased being able to/didn't want to sustain civil services like police, clinics, garbage collection, etc, Hamas stepped in and provided said services. They didn't just get voted in because they all hate Israel, the Hamas people were providing social services as well.

I voted for GW Bush because I didn't want Democrat-level tax increases, and all I got was a lousy war (Iraq).

Whether or not they voted for Hamas because they wanted to cause drama is kind of irrelevant - with politics you don't just get the aspects of a candidate that you like. You get ALL of the aspects. So whoever voted for Bush had to deal with foreign conflicts of questionable necessity and the religious sociopathy regarding gay marriage and abortion.

I'm not saying that they're all Hamas-loving Jew-hating Islamic death cultists. Many are, and many probably are not. However, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas won a nominally democratic election and now represents the Palestinian people, for better or worse.

I'm not saying that they're all Hamas-loving Jew-hating Islamic death cultists. Many are, and many probably are not. However, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas won a nominally democratic election and now represents the Palestinian people, for better or worse.

I'm not saying the opposite (really I think many Palestinians do hate Israel. They have a pretty long standing reason too). But winning an election in 2006 doesn't mean Hamas still has the support of the people. One of the reasons they always reject the first few cease fire proposals every time this happens is because they want to flex their muscles and remind everyone they're in charge.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I voted for GW Bush because I didn't want Democrat-level tax increases, and all I got was a lousy war (Iraq).

Whether or not they voted for Hamas because they wanted to cause drama is kind of irrelevant - with politics you don't just get the aspects of a candidate that you like. You get ALL of the aspects. So whoever voted for Bush had to deal with foreign conflicts of questionable necessity and the religious sociopathy regarding gay marriage and abortion.

I'm not saying that they're all Hamas-loving Jew-hating Islamic death cultists. Many are, and many probably are not. However, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas won a nominally democratic election and now represents the Palestinian people, for better or worse.

Well, they represent part of that nation, the Gaza Strip, the PLO still retains power in the West Bank. Though they purport to have a "unity" government now, in many way's there's effectively 2 Palestinian governments.

The Unity government collapsed earlier this year. Turns out the PLO wasn't down with Hamas' craziness and Hamas wasn't down with not destroying Israel.

And apparently everyone's agreed to stop shooting each other... For the next five hours anyway

 LordofHats wrote:
The Unity government collapsed earlier this year. Turns out the PLO wasn't down with Hamas' craziness and Hamas wasn't down with not destroying Israel.

And apparently everyone's agreed to stop shooting each other... For the next five hours anyway

And to then bomb Gaza to pieces and to attempt to bomb Israel.

What, with Israel dropping thousands of leaflets saying people should leave (and go awa- oh, yeah..) because they're going to bomb. A lot.

Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

No one ignores that.

They just aren't accepting it as making up for stuff like this. It happens every time the conflict flares up. A conflict that's lasted for decades with no end in sight, meaning its just going to keep happening. Some of us are kind of past the point where the aid delivered is really making up for the damage being caused.

The bright side for the immediate hostilities for now is that the ceasefire appears to have been extended while delegates talk in Egypt.

This is a rather effective illustration of how unbalanced this conflict is, especially so if you believe the rhetoric that Israel attempts to limit civilian casualties while Hamas actively seeks them out.

Seems their doing a massive Cordon and Search. Heard they found twenty rockets in a elementary school

 Jihadin wrote:
Seems their doing a massive Cordon and Search. Heard they found twenty rockets in a elementary school

A UN elementary school. Apparently the building wasn't being used which would explain why they went unnoticed till now, but still

Interesting that the government previous to Hamas seemed to be better at killing Israeli kids. The things you learn on Dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Seems their doing a massive Cordon and Search. Heard they found twenty rockets in a elementary school

The israelis should leave the schools extra curricular activities alone. Sports fields would be few and far between and rockets are plentiful. How can a kid be expected to be a well rounded human without extra curricular activities?
For shame israel, think of the children.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

"I blew up your house, but also, I brought you some McDonalds"

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

"I blew up your house, but also, I brought you some MRE's"

Fixed

 Jihadin wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

"I blew up your house, but also, I brought you some MRE's"

Fixed

Gonna be honest here... MRE's are probably slightly, just slightly, better

 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Reminder: Even during combat operations the IDF is risking life and limb to deliver food and medical aid to Gaza civilians.

"I blew up your house, but also, I brought you some McDonalds"

"I also confiscated your Aunties' house last year to build a hard line Jewish McDonalds."

Well, we're all winners if there is now affordable, fast McMatzo.

nice one Ouze.
Now with new bomb shelter. Come to McMatzos on a Friday night and spend some lovely family time together in our air conditioned shelter. Gas masks available for free!

 Bullockist wrote:
nice one Ouze.
Now with new bomb shelter. Come to McMatzos on a Friday night and spend some lovely family time together in our air conditioned shelter. Gas masks available for free!

Unless you're a Palestine.

I'm not sure what the conflict being unbalanced has to do with anything. Since when does being ill prepared to fight confer moral authority?

Since people started getting their moral codes from Tumblr slacktivists.

On the subject of Tumblr, I think reading up on the tumblr convention "Dashcon", would give you a laugh, Seaward.

tldr; it was an abysmal failure of epic proportions.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
On the subject of Tumblr, I think reading up on the tumblr convention "Dashcon, would give you a laugh, Seaward.

tldr; it was an abysmal failure of epic proportions.

There are some amazing ballpit videos on youtube now.

Also, I don't understand why being better equipped makes you a bad guy.

 Soladrin wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
On the subject of Tumblr, I think reading up on the tumblr convention "Dashcon, would give you a laugh, Seaward.

tldr; it was an abysmal failure of epic proportions.

There are some amazing ballpit videos on youtube now.

Also, I don't understand why being better equipped makes you a bad guy.

Well you have to justify shooting rockets at children somehow.

LuciusAR wrote:I'm not sure what the conflict being unbalanced has to do with anything. Since when does being ill prepared to fight confer moral authority?

It doesn't, however using modern weaponry to launch air strikes against what is essentially an open air prison that you have crippled economically, whilst actively targeting water supplies and humanitarian centres. That makes you immoral.

Seaward wrote:Since people started getting their moral codes from Tumblr slacktivists.

I am perfectly happy with my moral code thanks, I've had it longer than tumblr existed as well, it involves seeing the difference between the occupier and the occupied. I have sympathy with the people of Gaza, who have to face a realistic fear of death almost constantly, be it from air strike or from malnutrition or from some easily preventable disease. Whilst I do feel sympathy for the people of Israel who are under attack from Hamas, they are not in the same position in terms of risk, and their cause gets no sympathy from me, they are the occupying force here, whilst still encroaching further with settlements which is unjustifiable.

Frazzled wrote:Well you have to justify shooting rockets at children somehow.

Sorry are you referring to the side that has killed 10 times fewer children here?

There are effective ways to be insurgents, and ineffective ways. Targeting schools and bus stops, to the point that Israel builds shelters for them, is not effective. Likewise, after Hamas begins hiding missiles in elementary schools I take Hamas' complaints about taking children as casualties with an extra strength vitamin duh. Duh.

Hamas is not attacking military targets, or targets of any strategic value. Or if they are, I have not heard of it- are there any articles about them attacking anything but civilians? If I am wrong about Hamas, I am happy to change my opinion. right now, they seem to be standing in a school bus, throwing grenades at people in the street as they drive by while complaining about how many occupants of the bus the cops are killing.

I have tremendous sympathy for rebellions that target economic and government targets (such as the IRA under Sinn Fein)- I have nothing but condemnation for any organization that targets random civilians exclusively.

It doesn't, however using modern weaponry to launch air strikes against what is essentially an open air prison that you have crippled economically, whilst actively targeting water supplies and humanitarian centres. That makes you immoral.

So you'd be ok if they used B52's to carpet bomb Gaza then? Your argument holds no merit.

 LuciusAR wrote:
I'm not sure what the conflict being unbalanced has to do with anything. Since when does being ill prepared to fight confer moral authority?

I usually thing; "Do people want Israeli and Palestinian children killed equally? That's a little disturbing." When it gets brought up

No, the point should be why are so many children dying at all. Some say that 'human shields' fails to account for the number of Palestinian civilian deaths. Others might say that when two men are pointing guns at each other and one grabs a bystander and holds them in front of themselve, even if they start shooting the other man the other man isn't really morally superior to shoot through the hostage to kill their attacker.

It's understandable and excusable as an act in the heat of a moment or as an immediate respons. But when its been going on for over a decade and there's a couple thousand dead bystanders on the ground and neither shooter is showing any sign they want to stop shooting each other, there's not really any moral high ground at that point.