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You ever been to Israel? Because I'm thinking not.

No. Have you? If no, does that therefore make your opinions irrelevant too?

Plus, who claimed moral superiority?

You injected political correctness into the discussion by equating a highly contentious sectarian and religious war in which civilians strap bombs to themselves to blow up other civilians to which the governmentn responds with carpet bombing (which naturally causes fear, distrust and resentment on both sides), to persecuting people because you,don't like their skin colour or what they like to do with their private parts.

Did I touch a nerve there

Nope. Unless,you,count irritating me with your pompous,arrogance.

with my (reasonably obvious and self evident) analogy to a bad set of reasoning?

That's your opinion. An opinion,I do not share.

I reject your premise that disliking gays because "God tells me to" or black people "because dem ******* are beneath us white folk" is directly comparable to being afraid of Muslims in Israel and putting restrictions on their freedom of movement and other civil liberties because Muslims are blowing themselves and others up, firing rockets at civilians, and bursting into the homes of Jewish families/settlers to slit their throats as they sleep on a daily basis.

Persecuting a black person for being black, or a Gay person for being gay, is inherently illogical and self evidently wrong. Whereas restricting the freedom of movement etc for muslims in Israel because you've had X number of suicide bomb attacks each month committed by Muslims is a logical precaution, as unfair as it,may,be.




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sirlynchmob wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Black and gay people are strapping,bombs to themselves?

For all,your pompous self proclaimed moral superiority and holier than thou attitude, I highly doubt you could sit on a bus in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem next to a Muslim and not feel the slightest bit of apprehension.

I've been there done that.

If you're not a bigot, it's not a big deal and I'm so white I glow in the dark.

It's the christians who like bombing things in the US, especially hospitals, and they make up 74% of the prison population, so lets round all of them up and lock them up for our own safety.

That's a nice hyperbolic Straw Man. Good job.

Good news: In operations occurring yesterday and this morning, soldiers from my unit have killed 8 terrorists in Northern Gaza. Video below

http://0404.co.il/post/14881

In other news, the BRIGADE commander of Golani brigade (emphasis for military people who see how significant this is...) suffered shrapnel injuries during combat operations. He has since returned to duty. IDF officers lead from the front.

And for the record, I'm againstIsraels air strikes on Gaza, because they've mostly ineffective,,cause too much collateral damage and gives Hamas EXACTLY what it wants - lots of headlines of dead Palestinian children and civilians to turn world opinion against Israel, generate sympathy for Palestine and piss off the Muslim world.

Given that the current "dead" ratio is about 20-1 (with civilians being the bulk of the Palestinian casualty total and military casualties being the overwhelming bulk of the Israeli dead), it would appear Israel is all too eager to give Hamas what it wants in that case

And now it appears air travel to Israel is going to be another casualty, which isn't good for anyone.

 Jihadin wrote:

Back to OT. How many here though would be willing to form a human shield if their government calls on them to? Or stay in place because Hamas tells them to. Or have kids play out in the open when bullet's, missiles, and bombs are dropping into the AO.

As a former soldier, you should know the manner in which I'd voluntarily become a human shield

 whembly wrote:
Um... who elected the Hamas?

It's funny that people will complain about the lack of choice in their own two party systems, and then completely fail to extend that to other countries, and just assume whatever government they have must be completely representative of the people.

Palestinians are given the choice between the hopelessly corrupt and the only somewhat corrupt but quite militant Hamas. Selecting the latter is not so much a ringing endorsement of their desire to wipe Israel off the map, as the desire to have money put in to road and infrastructure instead of disappeared by corrupt officials.

Similarly, by the way, the settlements are not at all popular in Israel. But they continue because they are very important to a number of small parties who are typically very important to the formation of majority governments within Israel.

Do you believe, if Israel did all those things... that, there be peace?

I believe that peace is impossible without those things. With them it becomes inevitable, albeit still possibly stretching over generations. The trick then is to get Israel to do those things, and then commit to them despite the reversals they may meet along the way.

More rockets at another UN school. Apparently Hamas enjoyed it so much the first time, they did it again.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well I'm sure they enjoy more rights in Israel than Jews do in most Islamic countries. And Christians for that matter.

A few years ago a young Palestinian fellow lied, telling a girl he was Jewish in order to get her in to bed. It worked, and when the Jewish girl found out later on that he wasn't Jewish, the boy was prosecuted for rape.

Now, I agree that Israel has a lot of good protections for all citizens, but to conclude that it's fine because other countries in the region have poor religious freedoms while situations like the above occur is some really fethed up bs.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The difference is, we're dealing with a religious/societal ideology that glorifies something as absurd as blowing yourself up.

And here it is. Millions of people boiled down to a sentence of pure, complete bigotry.

That's why this is a waste of time on a place like this. So many posters know little and care nothing at all about actually learning about the issue.

What's interesting is that I've spoken to Israelis about this issue a fair bit. Their politics vary considerably, from people who are far more critical of the actions of the IDF than anyone here, to people who are in favour of a hardline approach (I've never met an actual settler, though). All of them made good points, no matter their politics, and had clearly thought long and hard about what is an incredibly complex and difficult issue.

But then you get stuff like this thread, and Ensis Ferrae's comment above. And like the last time I pointed this out, he's not alone. So many people happy to generalise whole peoples living in incredibly difficult circumstances, talk about them in the most absurd nonsense.

I have an idea, let's get rid of religion already.

 Soladrin wrote:
I have an idea, let's get rid of religion already.

At which point people will still kill each other over ideology. Religion isn't the problem, it's an excuse.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
I have an idea, let's get rid of religion already.

At which point people will still kill each other over ideology. Religion isn't the problem, it's an excuse.

Bros before hoes, rarr! *Throws brick*

Captain Kirk was best captain! *Throws brick*

Red Heads are hotter than blondes! *Throws Far Side Complete Collection*

 LordofHats wrote:
More rockets at another UN school. Apparently Hamas enjoyed it so much the first time, they did it again.

LIES!!! Hamas would never do that....

This time, though, it was a little bit different. The rockets were being stored in a facility within close proximity of roughly 3,000 displaced Palestinians.

The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.

LIES!!! Israel planted those for propaganda against Hamas. Its LIES!!!!

 dogma wrote:

 sebster wrote:

Anyhow, I just wanted to post one of those pictures of Palestinians taking cows through the tunnels, because that is incredible. If you're interested you should go see the pictures of the cows being lowered down on ropes.

You're such a fool. Obviously there are rockets in that cow's ass.

And here we see evidence of the infamous Cowtyushka.


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 LordofHats wrote:

 whembly wrote:
AFAIK there's none in Gaza.

Hamas made it too hot so they all got pulled out in 2005.

(I think there's a few in West Bank for strategic reasons).

Yeah. Strategery.

Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank. Their only strategic value is that they're build on the best pieces of land with near to no compensation to who owned it before (because they're either dead, arrested, or fled).

So whats the issue with Israel just absorbing the West Bank? I don't mean pushing the inhabitants out, annex it like the US annexed territories. Everyone currently living there becomes an Israeli citizen, etc. etc. Both "sides" keep Jerusalem as they are on the same side. Education, infrastructure improves etc etc.
It would be a sign to the Gazan side that there is a third way.


How would that be bad and who would object.

Seen a few camelrocket launchers.

 LordofHats wrote:

But, is there explicit treaty that Israel must withdraw from the West Bank?

The Road to Peace plan called for 2 things as step one; the PLO stops shooting rockets at Israel and Israel stops building settlements. The PLO stopped shooting rockets. Israel kept building settlements (literally, the next day they broke ground on a new one). Plan fell apart.

Ignoring the innate problem of taking occupied territory and settling it with your own people, Israel will never secure peace with the Palestinians so long as it continues to build in the West Bank. There is no such thing as a treaty that prevents you from taking land that isn't yours, that's just basic conduct. Israel did not annex the West Bank in 1967. It's not theirs.

These aren't military installations, they aren't shanty towns;



They're colonizing and pushing the Palestinians off (sometimes using shady means). That tends to agitate people.

man thats some butt ugly buildings. Did New Mexico suddenly pick up and land in the Holy Land?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:
This conflict is the poster child of "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Both have legitimate grievances, both have also done horrible things and are in the wrong, and neither will stop anytime soon. An endless cycle of death and conflict perpetuated by both, and each blames the other.

Actually it means the guy with the foresight to wear safety glasses Powns the World.

I have cool new safety/prescription glasses that look just this side of welder's glasses. I am prepared for the Eye Poking Apocalypse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Black and gay people are strapping,bombs to themselves?

Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

For all,your pompous self proclaimed moral superiority and holier than thou attitude, I highly doubt you could sit on a bus in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem next to a Muslim and not feel the slightest bit of apprehension.

You ever been to Israel? Because I'm thinking not.

Plus, who claimed moral superiority? Did I touch a nerve there with my (reasonably obvious and self evident) analogy to a bad set of reasoning?

Wow this thread went sideways fast didn't it.

Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, Congo, Nigeria, spearatists in Thailand. Irsrael/Palestine is just one, relatively tiny conflict among many.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


No. Have you? If no, does that therefore make your opinions irrelevant too?

I'm thinking that attempting to prescribe how other people would feel in a given scenario that one has never even been in is a foolish, and futile thing to do. It would be the same even if you'd been in it (because people react differently), but at least you could boast first hand knowledge in that case.

Plus, who claimed moral superiority?

You injected political correctness into the discussion by equating a highly contentious sectarian and religious war in which civilians strap bombs to themselves to blow up other civilians to which the governmentn responds with carpet bombing (which naturally causes fear, distrust and resentment on both sides), to persecuting people because you,don't like their skin colour or what they like to do with their private parts.

No. I equated a comment about discriminating against people based on skin colour/religion with discriminating against people based on skin colour or sexuality. The key similarity there is discrimination against people. Plus, I don't think accusing me of 'political correctness' has much coin here, unless you're trying to claim that being anti-discrimination is politically correct. Which is far more revealing about your views than mine, quite frankly.

Nope. Unless,you,count irritating me with your pompous,arrogance.

You got a lot out of one reasonably neutrally worded analogy. Again, I feel that's more reflective of you than me.

I reject your premise that disliking gays because "God tells me to" or black people "because dem ******* are beneath us white folk" is directly comparable to being afraid of Muslims in Israel and putting restrictions on their freedom of movement and other civil liberties because Muslims are blowing themselves and others up, firing rockets at civilians, and bursting into the homes of Jewish families/settlers to slit their throats as they sleep on a daily basis. Persecuting a black person for being black, or a Gay person for being gay, is inherently illogical and self evidently wrong. Whereas restricting the freedom of movement etc for muslims in Israel because you've had X number of suicide bomb attacks each month committed by Muslims is a logical precaution, as unfair as it,may,be.

You based your logic on statistics, and I did the same thing. I never mentioned God or black people being inferior to white people. For a third time, more revealing about you than me.

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
I have an idea, let's get rid of religion already.

At which point people will still kill each other over ideology. Religion isn't the problem, it's an excuse.

Bros before hoes, rarr! *Throws brick*

Captain Kirk was best captain! *Throws brick*

Red Heads are hotter than blondes! *Throws Far Side Complete Collection*

Touch my Far Side collection and I'll beat you with my stuffed armadillo...Barbarian!

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
I have an idea, let's get rid of religion already.

At which point people will still kill each other over ideology. Religion isn't the problem, it's an excuse.

Bros before hoes, rarr! *Throws brick*

Captain Kirk was best captain! *Throws brick*

Red Heads are hotter than blondes! *Throws Far Side Complete Collection*

Touch my Far Side collection and I'll beat you with my stuffed armadillo...Barbarian!

WTH? No Jackalope?

Jackalopes taste like rabbit. Watch the horns though. They'll ram your ankle and then, when you fall down, will gore you with 'em. The only good jackalope is a dead jcakalope.

man thats some butt ugly buildings. Did New Mexico suddenly pick up and land in the Holy Land?

Apparently the settlement buildings are designed to dissipate heat very efficiently

So whats the issue with Israel just absorbing the West Bank? I don't mean pushing the inhabitants out, annex it like the US annexed territories. Everyone currently living there becomes an Israeli citizen, etc. etc. Both "sides" keep Jerusalem as they are on the same side. Education, infrastructure improves etc etc.

Politically Israel doesn't want Jews to become the minority. For the Palestinians, many of them fear that they'll just be second class citizens (many would honestly probably accept that over the current situation).

The biggest problem to a 1-State Solution though are the other Arab states, Fatah, Hamas, and many Palestinians in general have all become dedicated to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. None of them want to back a 1 state solution. Groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are behind a completely different 1 state solution, though Hamas would likely accept for a time, an established 2 state situation until they decided to go a make that 2 state 1 state.

Hezzbullah and Hamas aren't in the West Bank.

Maybe its just me. I'm just seeing the efficacy of everyone being citizens.

 Frazzled wrote:
Hezzbullah and Hamas aren't in the West Bank.

Hamas is in the West Bank (just not the controlling authority). And as I tried explaining before, the situations in Gaza and the West Bank are not worlds apart. They're pretty much the same as far as the politics of Hamas are concerned.

Hezzbollah matters because depending on how things go in Lebanon, they could take control of the government there. They're actively involved in Syria and they support Hamas out the back door too. Its hard to tell how much their "we hate Israel" talk is just talk these days and how much is serious though. Annexing the West Bank could have the opposite of the desired effect. It could empower the radical base rather than pull the rug from under it.

According to you they are the same. They aren't.

Hezzbullah can be dealt with via carpet bombing. Enough of this light touch nonsense. End it one way or the other.

Seriously there needs to be an end to this. Fix it (and eliminating Israel is not fixing it) and come to permanent peace or release the fire teams, wall the region up, and just walk away.

Alternatively The US, Israel, and Iran could get all chummy over ISIS which would remove Hezzbullah as an issue as their masters would stop them.

 Frazzled wrote:
Hezzbullah and Hamas aren't in the West Bank.

Maybe its just me. I'm just seeing the efficacy of everyone being citizens.

I thought Israel didn't really want them citizens however, not to mention the fact they might not want to be citizens for them either.

 Frazzled wrote:
According to you they are the same. They aren't.

What I think is irrelevant. What Hamas and Israel think is. You can't talk about just Gaza or just the West Bank. The two are connected in this conflict.

Hezzbullah can be dealt with via carpet bombing. Enough of this light touch nonsense. End it one way or the other.
Alternatively The US, Israel, and Iran could get all chummy over ISIS which would remove Hezzbullah as an issue as their masters would stop them.

Hezbollah is a completely different beast from Hamas. Hamas got pushed out of PNA politics (twice) and basically said "screw you guys I'm going home and I'm taking all the rockets with me." Hazbollah is active in Lebanon politics. They pretty much own southern Lebanon and the Syria-Lebanon border and unlike Hamas they do have popular support. After the 2006 war they've painted themselves as liberators and they scored big points when they killed Rafic Hariri in 2005 (guy was so corrupt, he bankrupted his own country, destoryed its economy, and pretty much bragged about it). Hamas can be isolated from its support in the territories and taken apart piece by piece. Hezbollah cannot. EDIT: Also, Hezbollah has its own funding and isn't dependent on hand outs like Hamas. These guys work with South American drug lords.

But like I said. For an organization founded to oppose Israel and that does a lot to blame Israel for all the world's problems, they've been very reserved since the 06 war. Lately they're tied up in Syria and with domestic politics, but who knows.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Hezzbullah and Hamas aren't in the West Bank.

Maybe its just me. I'm just seeing the efficacy of everyone being citizens.

I thought Israel didn't really want them citizens however, not to mention the fact they might not want to be citizens for them either.

Thats the issue isn't it. Its this or that to try to block. At the end of the day there has to be movement.

On the positive, this is a minor conflict in reality, so absent news focus its almost irrelevant.

I have no problem with the US just walking away from it.

 LordofHats wrote:


But like I said. For an organization founded to oppose Israel and that does a lot to blame Israel for all the world's problems, they've been very reserved since the 06 war. Lately they're tied up in Syria and with domestic politics, but who knows.

Hezbollah has been very quiet. Most of my deployments were on Israel's northern border, and we never saw Hezbollah fighters walking around in uniform. Very often, they would try to draw us into situations where they could photograph us pointing weapons at UNIFIL troops. For example, I'd notice guys in a car looking at us with binos, glass them with my ACOG (which requires aiming at the car since I didn't have binos of my own...gotta use the scope), and watch them pull a video camera and drive behind a UNIFIL vehicle. They were trying to take photos to make it seem like we were pointing our weapons at the UNIFIL guys in a threatening manner when all we were doing was using our scopes to see if the guys in the car were a threat.

In terms of actual operations, I do know that a Hezbollah rocket team on 4 wheelers had a very...very bad day when a lucky round detonated the explosives they were carrying. Aside from that, I'm not sure that they've had any successful infiltrations. If I remember correctly they killed or injured a soldier a while back with an IED placed along the fence, but that attack didn't really fit Hezbollah's MO, which usually produces highly choreographed and well planned operations.

Hezbollah's MO, which usually produces highly choreographed and well planned operations.

Yeah. I suspect the day Hezbollah has nothing else to occupy its time could easily become a really sucky day for Israel (followed by a sucky week).

 LordofHats wrote:

Hezbollah's MO, which usually produces highly choreographed and well planned operations.

Yeah. I suspect the day Hezbollah has nothing else to occupy its time could easily become a really sucky day for Israel (followed by a sucky week).

FWIW I've got a lot of respect for Hezbollah as a fighting force. Hezbollah uses the terrain fairly well, has homefield advantage, and their fighters have decent fieldcraft. I'm less impressed with some of their tactics (i.e., dressing up in IDF uniforms, things like that), but by and large they are probably the most adept fighting force the Arab world has to offer. I considered it a bit of an honor to be deployed against them. Last time we fought Hamas we fething roflstomped them. It felt a little bit like beating up slow children. I was more worried about Gaza sand fleas than Hamas fighters.