Air strikes on Gaza

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**Ensis Ferrae**

sebster wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The difference is, we're dealing with a religious/societal ideology that glorifies something as absurd as blowing yourself up.

And here it is. Millions of people boiled down to a sentence of pure, complete bigotry.

That's why this is a waste of time on a place like this. So many posters know little and care nothing at all about actually learning about the issue.

What's interesting is that I've spoken to Israelis about this issue a fair bit. Their politics vary considerably, from people who are far more critical of the actions of the IDF than anyone here, to people who are in favour of a hardline approach (I've never met an actual settler, though). All of them made good points, no matter their politics, and had clearly thought long and hard about what is an incredibly complex and difficult issue.

But then you get stuff like this thread, and Ensis Ferrae's comment above. And like the last time I pointed this out, he's not alone. So many people happy to generalise whole peoples living in incredibly difficult circumstances, talk about them in the most absurd nonsense.

How is it bigoted to point out that Mainstream Islam still, to this day, supports, teaches and glorifies those who become suicide bombers as martyrs? It's quite literally the only religion on this planet that, as a Mainstream Teaching, believes that all non-believers "must be beheaded" (the irony being that at the beginning of the Koran, it proclaims that Christians and Jews are "of the Book", pray to the same god and are thus brothers funny how the Koran contradicts itself). Your "Average Joe" wants to be able to practice his/her business and religion in peace, and just get on with life. There are certainly going to be some out there who disagree with some "doctrine" within their religion (and that goes for ALL religions), but it still remains that the Religion itself holds as doctrine, some incredibly violent things, and hasn't changed since its inception. Comparatively, there are many religions out there that HAVE changed, and altered doctrine in accordance with a modern world.

In two tours of Iraq, I've personally seen how a single relgion has become not only the dominant religion, but dominant lifestyle. The entire region is built on Tribal and religious lines (and the tribes most often derive their power from the religious). As it stands, a Sunni is going to largely be a Sunni, no matter where you are. Just as a Shi'ite is going to be a Shi'ite wherever they are, there really isn't much doctrinal difference between a Sunni in Baghdad and a Sunni Detroit.

Do I think that everyone in that region would be better off with a peaceful solution? Definitely. Do I necessarily see that this will come to be during my lifetime? Probably not, so long as people with religious authority maintain the hold they have over the people.

**LordofHats**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
How is it bigoted to point out that Mainstream Islam still, to this day, supports, teaches and glorifies those who become suicide bombers as martyrs?

1) Because its not true and
2) mental loop da loops someone needs to jump through to reach such a conclusion leave few options other than ignorance and bigotry (some might consider there to be difference between the two

)

I'm pretty well acquitted with what people think about Islam, but have to say "beheading infidels is a mainstream teaching" is a new one

**Ensis Ferrae**

LordofHats wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
How is it bigoted to point out that Mainstream Islam still, to this day, supports, teaches and glorifies those who become suicide bombers as martyrs?

1) Because its not true and
2) mental loop da loops someone needs to jump through to reach such a conclusion leave few options other than ignorance and bigotry (some might consider there to be difference between the two )

I'm pretty well acquitted with what people think about Islam, but have to say "beheading infidels is a mainstream teaching" is a new one

1... how much of Islam have you studied?? (beyond what you see on Mainstream, American TV that gives lip service to peace?) Because everything that I've studied of the relgion shows this to be true... They glorify martyrdom (as does Christianity), the difference between how Christianity and Islam glorify martyrdom is in the manner in which a person becomes a "martyr"... Hint, with Christians, you can't blow yourself up and become a martyr, someone else has to kill you.

2.. See above.

**Jihadin**

LordofHats wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
How is it bigoted to point out that Mainstream Islam still, to this day, supports, teaches and glorifies those who become suicide bombers as martyrs?

1) Because its not true and
2) mental loop da loops someone needs to jump through to reach such a conclusion leave few options other than ignorance and bigotry (some might consider there to be difference between the two )

I'm pretty well acquitted with what people think about Islam, but have to say "beheading infidels is a mainstream teaching" is a new one

There are some regions that someone from the west needs to stay out of.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Jihadin wrote:

There are some regions that someone from the west needs to stay out of.

This being one of them

Lol, but as with Iraq and Afghanistan, we (Westerners) don't seem to learn very quickly do we?

**LordofHats**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
1... how much of Islam have you studied?? (beyond what you see on Mainstream, American TV that gives lip service to peace?)

How much of Islam have you studied (beyond what you see on Mainstream Americian TV that gives lip service to ignorance)

Cause really, if you had studied anything, you'd know that there is no mainstream sect of Islam that teaches beheading infidels. Even A hardline radical Wahabi (which is basically just an synonym for terrorist) would have a hard time swallowing that claim

Ignore that in the Middle Ages the Middle East was the most religiously tolerant place in the world, religious intolerance is a fairly new thing for them (spurned in part by the Zionist movement's earliest successes back in the 1920's).

**Jihadin**

I've been to Israel. No biggie. Two month TDY. Hard warning to not visit Palestinians establishments being we're Americans. Bad things could happen.
Like dealing with North Korea. Do not give the "bird" to North Korea or you will end up plastered to propaganda sheets coming across the DMZ for the all of South to see.

**sirlynchmob**

to show how the palestines would be treated if they became citizens of Israel and a one state solution was implemented.

Here we have Shaked is a senior figure in the Habeyit Hayehudi (Jewish Home) party that is part of Israel’s ruling coalition, saying the Palestines are lower than animals and no one is calling for her resignation, no one seems put off by this statement.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-genocide-palestinians-gets-thousands-facebook-likes

It is a call for genocide because it declares that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”
It is a call for genocide because it calls for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

Her post was shared more than one thousand times and received almost five thousand “Likes.”

Let's think about this for a moment. Here we have a people who were the target of a genocide, now calling for a genocide.

We should take the example of Boston the other day, Palestine supporters march on the government with Israel supporters also present. They exchange words but no violence ensues because there is ample police presence. As those two countries can not come to a peaceful solution on their own, so the UN should step in and separate them, put their two leaders in a room and not let them out til they have agreed to a lasting solution.

**Frazzled**

I have a better idea. Quit meddling, stay the BLEEP out of it and let them sort it out themselves.

NOT

OUR

FIGHT

**Ensis Ferrae**

sirlynchmob wrote:

We should take the example of Boston the other day, Palestine supporters march on the government with Israel supporters also present. They exchange words but no violence ensues because there is ample police presence. As those two countries can not come to a peaceful solution on their own, so the UN should step in and separate them, put their two leaders in a room and not let them out til they have agreed to a lasting solution.

No one should "go in" because that's a whole basket of worms... instead, we need to black bag the leaders to a secure, undisclosed location, and sit them in the same room, and say "neither of you is leaving till gak gets done... yeah, you gotta watch each other eat, sleep and poo, until there is a genuine peace agreement"

**Wolfstan**

Ok I'm an outsider to all this with the basic facts to remember when I'm making my comments and asking questions.

* I'm not religious
* I don't get over excited about anything, eg country, life or famous people

* I live in a stable country

So basically Israel was torn apart as a whole nation around 930 BC with it splitting in to the Kingdom of Judea and the Kingdom of Israel. The splitting of the nation continues from this point onwards. Judea renames itself Israel around the time of the Romans, but from what I can it's really a true nation. From then onwards you don't really have any such nation as Israel any more? It's around the late 19th Century that the seeds of what is to become the modern Israel start to grow, from what I've gleamed off the web, but it's still not a true nation state by any means at this point. So we jump forward to the end of WWII and the creation of the modern state of Israel.

Now, as I said, I'm not religious, so I don't have "faith", but I can understand that the Jews of the world would like their land back so they have a homeland. Given that it was nearly 2,000 years ago that the original nation of Israel existed how can a displaced race suddenly turn up and start kicking out people who'd been there for just as long?

Wasn't the idea of the UN partition plan supposed to address this problem by basically saying "we understand that historically this is your land, but too much time has passed and you will need to compromise and not have all of it". If they had followed those guidelines perhaps we wouldn't be in this mess? I realise that the Palestinians / Arabs may not of been happy, but at least the UN could of said the same thing to them, but what you have is Israel poking a hornets nest by creeping expansion.

Just out of interest I wonder what Israel's policy is on supporting the native peoples of the Americas or Australia or New Zealand. These people had their land taken from them less than 300 years ago. Surely in the eyes of the world these wrongs should be righted first?

**Ensis Ferrae**

Wolfstan wrote:

Just out of interest I wonder what Israel's policy is on supporting the native peoples of the Americas or Australia or New Zealand. These people had their land taken from them less than 300 years ago. Surely in the eyes of the world these wrongs should be righted first?

Well, AFAIK, both New Zealand and Australia have much better integrated the "native population" into their society (Look at the All Blacks

) than the US as a whole... I think that there are quite a few Native Americans who don't like the reservation idea, and thus get integrate themselves with the rest of American Society, and I know that there are a ton of US government programs to "help" them out.

So, in some ways I'm with you, but I more wonder if there is a wrong to be righted? Or at the very least, do more than is already being done.. I really don't intend this to sound "boostrappy", but it does seem that there are so many programs in place that give that hand up to Native Americans, and they quite often just sit there, unused.

If I'm wrong about NZ, and Australia, I'd love to hear more about it (I mean, I know that there are some "bad" areas of Aussie land due to aboriginal violence, but I haven't seen much to suggest things are too bad overall)

**sirlynchmob**

Frazzled wrote:
I have a better idea. Quit meddling, stay the BLEEP out of it and let them sort it out themselves.

NOT

OUR

FIGHT

Well it was the UN's involvement and meddling that created this mess, if they had just stayed the BLEEP out of it there wouldn't be an Israel right now. But as they created the mess, they should step in and clean up their mess.

**Frazzled**

Ok let the UN do it, as long as UN does not equal US.

**Ensis Ferrae**

sirlynchmob wrote:

Well it was the UN's involvement and meddling that created this mess, if they had just stayed the BLEEP out of it there wouldn't be an Israel right now. But as they created the mess, they should step in and clean up their mess.

Hey man, take it easy on the UN.... they were just trying to right the wrong that the Roman Empire did by exporting all them Jewish Bankers out of there

**LordofHats**

Wolfstan wrote:
From then onwards you don't really have any such nation as Israel any more?

Nation as a concept didn't exist until much later in history (depending on how strictly you want to define nation as a word). Today, Israel is probably one of the last true bastions of classical nationalism.

Given that it was nearly 2,000 years ago that the original nation of Israel existed how can a displaced race suddenly turn up and start kicking out people who'd been there for just as long?

Though many Jews left Israel from the 6th Century onwards, including the great Roman Jewish Disapora following the Bar Kochba Revolt, Jews have always been present in the region. it's not like one day all the Jews left and then a few centuries later decided to come back.

*(the Romans called it Judea, the Ottomans lumped it in with the region of 'Greater Syria' which is why some people in the Mid East still call it from time to time 'West Syria')

Wasn't the idea of the UN partition plan supposed to address this problem by basically saying "we understand that historically this is your land, but too much time has passed and you will need to compromise and not have all of it"

No. The UN partition plans have always been oriented rather pragmatically. When it became apparent that the Jews and Palestinians in Mandated Palestine were going to go to war with each other (something the British saw coming as early as the mid 30's), the focus was to try and give both sides what they wanted so that they wouldn't fight. The focus of the first partition plans was based on the population dispersal and land owned.

Problem with that is rooted in an older Ottoman issue called the 1858 Ottoman Land Code. Basically the Ottomans had an issue with mountains of land and no one knew who owned it so they made a law telling everyone to account for their property. Problem was that they needed documentation to prove the land was theirs and well... how many people actually keep their receipts even today XD The Zionist movement was kicking off about this time and many Jews came in and bought unclaimed land that was in dispute (no one from outside the Empire, including the Jews, really had a strong understanding of this issue at the time) so when the UN issued the first partition plans based on land ownership, the Palestinians basically said "hell no that's not their land, we've lived on it, worked it, and owned it for centuries" and the Jews in turn held up the deeds of purchase.

The Ottoman Empire's motto might as well be "we fethed it all up from 1858 onwards, sorry bout that." That's why the Palestinians said no to the earliest Partition plans. They'd been embroiled in a legal battle with the Ottomans going on nearly a century over who owned what.

**Wolfstan**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I have a better idea. Quit meddling, stay the BLEEP out of it and let them sort it out themselves.

NOT

OUR

FIGHT

Well it was the UN's involvement and meddling that created this mess, if they had just stayed the BLEEP out of it there wouldn't be an Israel right now. But as they created the mess, they should step in and clean up their mess.

I do have to agree with Frazz's quote on this as well

I would like to mention I wasn't trying to stir things up but just point out that if things that only happened recently (historically wise) can't be corrected, how can Israel expect the peoples living in that region for 2,000 years to hand over their homes and be happy about it

**Jihadin**

Frazzled wrote:
Ok let the UN do it, as long as UN does not equal US.

Have a freaking Amen.

**sirlynchmob**

Jihadin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Ok let the UN do it, as long as UN does not equal US.

Have a freaking Amen.

Well that explains a lot about the decline of american values. Help create a huge mess, refuse to accept responsibility for it, nor think they should help clean it up. Sounds like your kids these days, no respect anyone and think their actions don't have consequences.

Isn't he US part of the UN? so the only alliance you honor is to Israel? Must be because america is scared Israel will try and sink another one of their navy's ships.

**Frazzled**

You go. Please tell me how your attempt to bring peace to a region that has had peace for about 8 minutes (under the Roman Legions) for the last what er 5,500 years give or take works out.

Also we didn't create the mess. Sorry. At best its a UK thing. At the time you were part of the UK still, so really its your fault...
No one in that fight has bled with us, or even against us.

besides you don't really want us to sort it out do you. We could make peace there, but it would be very very very quiet.

**ashikenshin**

Well since there is no oil to be had then let them sort it out.

If it was Iraq/Iran: OMG WHY DON'T WE SEND TROOPS IN THERE!

I think modern day Nazis are left to do whatever they want because it's palestines they are mistreating and killing and have them in a pseudo concentration camp. Masacres are a-ok as long as they do it to these people and no money is to be had anywhere.

oh but let's forget we are murdering hundreds of innocent people, the cruelty of these savages sending "suicide donkeys." That's just barbaric! let's bomb the hell out them!

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamas-recruits-suicide-donkeys-to-fight-against-israel/2014/07/20/

**Soladrin**

ashikenshin wrote:
Well since there is no oil to be had then let them sort it out.

If it was Iraq/Iran: OMG WHY DON'T WE SEND TROOPS IN THERE!

I think modern day Nazis are left to do whatever they want because it's palestines they are mistreating and killing and have them in a pseudo concentration camp. Masacres are a-ok as long as they do it to these people and no money is to be had anywhere.

oh but let's forget we are murdering hundreds of innocent people, the cruelty of these savages sending "suicide donkeys." That's just barbaric! let's bomb the hell out them!

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamas-recruits-suicide-donkeys-to-fight-against-israel/2014/07/20/

Did he just call Israel Nazi's?

He just called Israel Nazi's.

This should fill a bingo card on it's own.

**ashikenshin**

Soladrin wrote:
ashikenshin wrote:
Well since there is no oil to be had then let them sort it out.

If it was Iraq/Iran: OMG WHY DON'T WE SEND TROOPS IN THERE!

I think modern day Nazis are left to do whatever they want because it's palestines they are mistreating and killing and have them in a pseudo concentration camp. Masacres are a-ok as long as they do it to these people and no money is to be had anywhere.

oh but let's forget we are murdering hundreds of innocent people, the cruelty of these savages sending "suicide donkeys." That's just barbaric! let's bomb the hell out them!

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamas-recruits-suicide-donkeys-to-fight-against-israel/2014/07/20/

Did he just call Israel Nazi's?

He just called Israel Nazi's.

This should fill a bingo card on it's own.

yes, I did. But that's actually an insult to the Nazi party.

**Ensis Ferrae**

ashikenshin wrote:

yes, I did. But that's actually an insult to the Nazi party.

Much as I don't want to open this can of worms:

I'd love to hear your justification for this....

**Jihadin**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Ok let the UN do it, as long as UN does not equal US.

Have a freaking Amen.

Well that explains a lot about the decline of american values. Help create a huge mess, refuse to accept responsibility for it, nor think they should help clean it up. Sounds like your kids these days, no respect anyone and think their actions don't have consequences.

Isn't he US part of the UN? so the only alliance you honor is to Israel? Must be because america is scared Israel will try and sink another one of their navy's ships.

Why does it have to be the US leading in other countries issue's

We're not leading in Ukraine. More like a EU issue.
We're not leading in Israel. Not our fight
We're not leading in Iraq. No longer our fight
We're not leading in Syria. Was never our fight

Funny you throw "values" at the US being Hamas using human shields. What are Hamas "values"?

Article Seven:

As a result of the fact that those Moslems who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.

On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.

The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.

"We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed." (The Table, verse 48).

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

That's Article Seven of Hamas Charter.

Edit

I've over five years dealing with "Organizations" like this. I have no sympathy towards them

**sirlynchmob**

Frazzled wrote:
You go. Please tell me how your attempt to bring peace to a region that has had peace for about 8 minutes (under the Roman Legions) for the last what er 5,500 years give or take works out.

Also we didn't create the mess. Sorry.
No one in that fight has bled with us, or even against us.

I didn't say you created the mess, but you've certainly contributed to it.

They're just using the rockets you sold them, the planes you sold them, the defense system you gave them, and the training you gave them to kill civilians.

wasn't the US wasn't part of the UN in 1947, how did the US vote on Resolution 181(II).? United States (Vote: For):

They might not have bled against you, but Israel did attack the USS Liberty and almost sink her.

Are you not currently part of the UN, yet you feel you don't need to honor your commitments?

but go ahead teach your kids it's ok not to honor your commitments, nor accept responsibility for their actions.

**Soladrin**

ashikenshin wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
ashikenshin wrote:
Well since there is no oil to be had then let them sort it out.

If it was Iraq/Iran: OMG WHY DON'T WE SEND TROOPS IN THERE!

I think modern day Nazis are left to do whatever they want because it's palestines they are mistreating and killing and have them in a pseudo concentration camp. Masacres are a-ok as long as they do it to these people and no money is to be had anywhere.

oh but let's forget we are murdering hundreds of innocent people, the cruelty of these savages sending "suicide donkeys." That's just barbaric! let's bomb the hell out them!

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/hamas-recruits-suicide-donkeys-to-fight-against-israel/2014/07/20/

Did he just call Israel Nazi's?

He just called Israel Nazi's.

This should fill a bingo card on it's own.

yes, I did. But that's actually an insult to the Nazi party.

Awesome. Let me grab some popcorn.

**CptJake**

Murder implies intent. If anyone would be guilty of intending for innocent Palestinians to be killed it would be Hamas. That is why they use schools and hospitals as cache sites and launch rockets from areas populated with civilians. Dead Palestinian kids are considered good by Hamas from a propaganda perspective. If anyone is guilty of 'murder' it would be Hamas.

**ashikenshin**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
ashikenshin wrote:

yes, I did. But that's actually an insult to the Nazi party.

Much as I don't want to open this can of worms:

I'd love to hear your justification for this....

nah you don't.

**Soladrin**

ashikenshin wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
ashikenshin wrote:

yes, I did. But that's actually an insult to the Nazi party.

Much as I don't want to open this can of worms:

I'd love to hear your justification for this....

nah you don't.

Well done, best troll 2014.

Have a cookie.