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Can we stop saying under the marker, if you are you are not arguing RAW. You are changing rules to fit your narrative.

the words used are beneath and underneath the blast marker.

beneath: 1. In a lower place; below. 2. Underneath.
underneath: a : directly beneath b : close under especially so as to be hidden

Only the models that can be seen from above the marker are beneath the marker.

using the proper terms we can also compare it to the phrase: The boxes under your bed are not beneath the sheets.

Only that which is beneath the sheets and above the bed count. Or beneath the marker and above the next floor count.

Also models on lower levels are not being hit by the blast as they are not directly below the marker there is something between the marker and the model.

Beneath is anything below (Or under) the marker.

Anything underneath is interchangeable with beneath.

They do not give a range on how far the "beneath and underneath" extend so anything beneath and underneath, no matter how far beneath and underneath, the marker or template is hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Beneath is anything below (Or under) the marker.

Anything underneath is interchangeable with beneath.

They do not give a range on how far the "beneath and underneath" extend so anything beneath and underneath, no matter how far beneath and underneath, the marker or template is hit.

the words themselves give the distance beneath. ie directly. It's like those words were used for a reason. those models directly beneath the marker are hit.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Beneath is anything below (Or under) the marker.

Anything underneath is interchangeable with beneath.

They do not give a range on how far the "beneath and underneath" extend so anything beneath and underneath, no matter how far beneath and underneath, the marker or template is hit.

the words themselves give the distance beneath. ie directly. It's like those words were used for a reason. those models directly beneath the marker are hit.

and a model that is 10 inches beneath the marker is directly beneath the marker.

Here is my rules backing

"To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base." (General Principles chapter, blast markers and templates section, 4th graph sentences 3-5).

The rules tell us to " look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath."

So by looking underneath the marker we can determine if a model 10 inches below the marker has been hit, we determine this my seeing if the marker covers "any part of the target’s base."

Yes he but in the fantasy rule section we all live in we all know artillery shells hit floors and just stop. Floor are unmovable objects, impenetrable , and stuff.

I like the new rules for blasts makes it more realistic even if it's a fantasy world that an artillery shells actually can kill those hiding in ruins. Maybe they intentionally left out them rules since they made no sense when they wrote them in the past.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Beneath is anything below (Or under) the marker.

Anything underneath is interchangeable with beneath.

They do not give a range on how far the "beneath and underneath" extend so anything beneath and underneath, no matter how far beneath and underneath, the marker or template is hit.

the words themselves give the distance beneath. ie directly. It's like those words were used for a reason. those models directly beneath the marker are hit.

and a model that is 10 inches beneath the marker is directly beneath the marker.

Here is my rules backing

"To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base." (General Principles chapter, blast markers and templates section, 4th graph sentences 3-5).

The rules tell us to " look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath."

So by looking underneath the marker we can determine if a model 10 inches below the marker has been hit, we determine this my seeing if the marker covers "any part of the target’s base."

why is the marker 10" above the model in question?

without a picture that may or may not be possible, but if anything (floor, another model, etc) is between the model & marker the model in question is not directly beneath it and therefore not hit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
why is the marker 10" above the model in question? without a picture that may or may not be possible,

Because we put the marker 10 inches over the ruin to hit the guys in the ruin.

but if anything (floor, another model, etc) is between the model & marker the model in question is not directly beneath it and therefore not hit.

Please provide rules support for this assertation (You will not be able to though as no rules support exists for this).

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
why is the marker 10" above the model in question? without a picture that may or may not be possible,

Because we put the marker 10 inches over the ruin to hit the guys in the ruin.

but if anything (floor, another model, etc) is between the model & marker the model in question is not directly beneath it and therefore not hit.

Please provide rules support for this assertation (You will not be able to though as no rules support exists for this).

the very words in the rule support my assertion, you have no rules to support this infinite column nonsense, nor hitting models you can't see because of other floors between the marker & model.

to help you out some more directly:
adverb: directly
1. without changing direction or stopping.
2. with nothing or no one in between.

so to be directly under the marker there shall be nothing or no model in between. English FTW.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
why is the marker 10" above the model in question? without a picture that may or may not be possible,

Because we put the marker 10 inches over the ruin to hit the guys in the ruin.

but if anything (floor, another model, etc) is between the model & marker the model in question is not directly beneath it and therefore not hit.

Please provide rules support for this assertation (You will not be able to though as no rules support exists for this).

the very words in the rule support my assertion, you have no rules to support this infinite column nonsense, nor hitting models you can't see because of other floors between the marker & model.

to help you out some more directly:
adverb: directly
1. without changing direction or stopping.
2. with nothing or no one in between.

so to be directly under the marker there shall be nothing or no model in between. English FTW.

Where in the rule does it say Directly beneath? Ill wait for a quote (But again you will not be able to find one)

"A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker."

you have no rules support saying that it stops if you hit a model or floor.

Please back that part up or admit that your previous claim about "directly beneath" was in error.

Underneath means directly beneath.

def: situated directly below

so the only one in error is you.

so feel free to admit you're 100% wrong. and mark your statements HYWPI.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Underneath means directly beneath.

Citation needed, because the rules do not state this. Stop inserting words into the rules.

Something 10 inches below the marker is still underneath the marker.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Underneath means directly beneath.

Citation needed, because the rules do not state this. Stop inserting words into the rules.

Something 10 inches below the marker is still underneath the marker.

please state the definition of underneath and you'll see why you're wrong.

If you can see the one model than yes, if it's totally obscured by a floor or other obstacle, than no. Once you understand what 'underneath' means you'll see why this is true.

I am not wrong.

Underneath can also mean vertically beneath. It does not necessarily mean directly beneath. (Even if it did, something on a different floor is directly beneath the marker if the marker is above the model).

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not wrong.

Underneath can also mean vertically beneath. It does not necessarily mean directly beneath. (Even if it did, something on a different floor is directly beneath the marker if the marker is above the model).

who's inserting words into rules?

as you clearly just did to fit the way you want to play, mark your post HYWPI.

something on a different floor is not directly beneath the marker.

underneath = directly below.
directly = with nothing or no one in between.
below = extending underneath.

RAW if you can't see the model, you can't hit the model. Floors stop blast markers, because a floor is in between the marker and the model so it is not directly under the marker. Take some time and look up the definitions and think about it. Admit you're wrong on this one, it builds character.

whilst I can appreciate sirlynchmob's attempts to use the english language to directly back up the assumption that hidden models cannot be hit, it sadly isn't that simple. picking one of the definitions of a word to suit isn't the right way to do it.

so the rule states that units take hits due to models "beneath" the marker, not directly, not underneath.
"Beneath" is defined as "At a lower level or layer than"
therefore all units (not just enemies) which are "At a lower level or layer than" the blast marker will be hit.

congratulations, deathstrike missiles just became realistic, just fire them at the highest unit on the board and hit every unit on the table.

English FTW!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, @ Deathreaper, lascannons can make sense, riding large animals can make sense, but a grotzooka firing a ball of scrap into a unit and creating a vertical pillar of destruction that extends infinitely with each blast, doesn't.

 some bloke wrote:
whilst I can appreciate sirlynchmob's attempts to use the english language to directly back up the assumption that hidden models cannot be hit, it sadly isn't that simple. picking one of the definitions of a word to suit isn't the right way to do it.

so the rule states that units take hits due to models "beneath" the marker, not directly, not underneath.
"Beneath" is defined as "At a lower level or layer than"
therefore all units (not just enemies) which are "At a lower level or layer than" the blast marker will be hit.

congratulations, deathstrike missiles just became realistic, just fire them at the highest unit on the board and hit every unit on the table.

English FTW!

beneath is also defined as:
extending or directly underneath, typically with close contact.

2nd definition from the source I think you used: directly under : underneath

so even beneath leads us back to underneath.

They use two words to determine hits and one of them has been boldfaced. ie underneath, because that's the line that is the most important element and essance of the rule. 'beneath' wasn't bolded, but either way the word 'directly' is always found to be used with both words. It's not picking one definition, it's looking at both definition and finding the common usage of both words.

It's quite funny if we take it a step further. If there are no limits to beneath (meaning ruins levels do not affect), if I have a cylinder of 50 models under the table, and it is beneath the blast template, does that mean I get to roll 50 dice to wound? Since all of those 50 models will count as hits? RAW, it doesn't seem to restrict where the beneath models are. So under the table counts as well?

 milkboy wrote:

It's quite funny if we take it a step further. If there are no limits to beneath (meaning ruins levels do not affect), if I have a cylinder of 50 models under the table, and it is beneath the blast template, does that mean I get to roll 50 dice to wound? Since all of those 50 models will count as hits? RAW, it doesn't seem to restrict where the beneath models are. So under the table counts as well?

if those models have been deployed, yes you can count the hits on them.

Any generated Wounds would have to be applied to those Models in the cylinder, which would have no impact on the actual Game.

JinxDragon wrote:
Any generated Wounds would have to be applied to those Models in the cylinder, which would have no impact on the actual Game.

What if those are his reserves under the table. he has a unit in every cylinder.

so would you apply those generated wounds to his models in reserves?

because that could have an impact on the game.

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Any generated Wounds would have to be applied to those Models in the cylinder, which would have no impact on the actual Game.

What if those are his reserves under the table. he has a unit in every cylinder.

so would you apply those generated wounds to his models in reserves?

because that could have an impact on the game.

No because you can not hit models that are not deployed.

The cylinder-of-death certainly makes ruins much less useful tactically.

I have a scratch built building (not a ruin) in my terrain collection that has a "drive-thru" section underneath. You can't see models in the drive-thru from the side (or from above).

If someone wants to attack a unit under the building, can they just target the building and the cylinder-of-death hits them too? A Blast or two from a Wyvern battery would be great, cause they don't get a cover save either.

If I want this terrain piece to have it's intended value (ie, providing protection to troops underneath), do I just need to make up a custom data sheet with a "screw the cylinder-of-death special rule".

sirlynchmob wrote:
so would you apply those generated wounds to his models in reserves? .

Can you find any rules that would allow you to apply hits to units that are not currently a part of the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
I like the new rules for blasts ...

They're not so much 'new' rules as simply a return to the old rules.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so would you apply those generated wounds to his models in reserves? .

Can you find any rules that would allow you to apply hits to units that are not currently a part of the game?

They are part of the game though, are you saying models in reserve are not part of the game?

If models in reserves are not part of the game til they're on the table, can a warlord in reserve, who modifies the reserve roll get to use that ability?

Where are these rules that defines who is currently in the game and not in the game?

As far as permissions go, I can choose to put units in reserve when I deploy my army. I have permission to move all my units, no restriction for being in reserve. I have permission to shoot with all my units and it's demonstrably stated under who can shoot, anything that disallows a unit to shoot will be clearly stated, reserves does not restrict a unit from shooting. Does anyone play this way? I highly doubt it, but those are the rules as written. so claiming units are not in the game and can't be shot is a house rule, it's a good house rule, but a house rule none the less.

I just wanted clarification from jinxdragon who claimed you could generate and apply wounds to models under the table. This cylinder idea is a made up rule, I just wanted to see how he plays it.

and another thing, even deep strike says the unit must start the game in reserves if they wish to deep strike. But if they're not in the game yet, I guess no one can deep strike then?

Well I was not being serious about generating Wounds, just pondering as to why it would even matter, as I considered the models to not be in Play because whom packs their reserves away in boxes under the table?

However, lesson learned:
Do not place your reserves underneath the table as the blast Rules are too liberal with generating Hits!

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so would you apply those generated wounds to his models in reserves? .

Can you find any rules that would allow you to apply hits to units that are not currently a part of the game?

They are part of the game though, are you saying models in reserve are not part of the game?

If models in reserves are not part of the game til they're on the table, can a warlord in reserve, who modifies the reserve roll get to use that ability?

Where are these rules that defines who is currently in the game and not in the game?

As far as permissions go, I can choose to put units in reserve when I deploy my army. I have permission to move all my units, no restriction for being in reserve. I have permission to shoot with all my units and it's demonstrably stated under who can shoot, anything that disallows a unit to shoot will be clearly stated, reserves does not restrict a unit from shooting. Does anyone play this way? I highly doubt it, but those are the rules as written. so claiming units are not in the game and can't be shot is a house rule, it's a good house rule, but a house rule none the less.

I just wanted clarification from jinxdragon who claimed you could generate and apply wounds to models under the table. This cylinder idea is a made up rule, I just wanted to see how he plays it.

and another thing, even deep strike says the unit must start the game in reserves if they wish to deep strike. But if they're not in the game yet, I guess no one can deep strike then?

Models in reserve have not been deployed and are not on the battlefield.

The rules are written assuming that you are using models that are a part of your army list, and deployed on the battlefield, are the models that may take actions and be targeted by the enemy.

"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins."(Preparing for battle chapter, The Battlefield Section).

"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight." "The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes." (Preparing for battle chapter, The Battlefield Section, The field of war sub-section).

Just house rule it to only hit models that are not COMPLETELY obscured.

Makes more sense, is fair, and much more sportsmanlike in my opinion.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Just house rule it to only hit models that are not COMPLETELY obscured.

Makes more sense, is fair, and much more sportsmanlike in my opinion.

I suspect my group will do the same. The cylinder-of-death just seems to OP.

If it is on the Datasheet it isn't technically a House Rule, so use datasheets with 6th Edition Rules for Ruins....
Just have to marvel at a Rulebook containing a Rule requiring us to make up our own Rules, but it is in the book so evoke it if this is really a problem with the terrain your group uses.

Snapshot wrote:
suspect my group will do the same. The cylinder-of-death just seems to OP.

Here's some food for thought: If you aim a blast at a Knight, and there are models around the Knight's base and underneath the edge of the blast marker, those models are being hit by a blast every bit as if they were on the bottom floor of a 3-story ruin with a blast placed over it.

It's not particularly OP. It's also how blasts worked for years before the levels in ruins rules were added to the game.