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A lot of people (you know who you are) at GT's, top and bottom tables have cheated at one time or another. As a person who has the potential to play against said cheaters, you should be aware of the most obvious ways people enjoy to cheat.

-Often times players will conveniently 'forget' certain rules. A prime example of this would be forgetting the proper rules for making multiple charges and daisy chaining guys that could have otherwise made base to base contact, or a tyranid player neglecting to make instinctive behavior checks. This is the most common, and while not always intentional, can have a profound impact on the outcome of a game. The best thing you can do to protect yourself from this sort of thing is to KNOW THE RULES. Put the rulebook next to the clapper or do whatever you gotta do to make sure you're ready.

-Moving models too far is especially to hard to prove since the people doing it are generally quick about it and pick up the tape measure before they finish moving. Telling people they are doing it and to knock it off generally pits a sour taste in both players mouths and since the game is suppose to be fun, you need a more tactful way to deal with it. My favorite is to pre measure before a person moves a model so I know exactly what they should need to charge or if they would be in range. People generally seem to get what's up once you show you are fully aware of what type of threats each of their units is capable of.

-Picking up dice or lying about rolls is a cheating reserved for the worst of the worst. I'm not talking about accident tally picking up a to hit of '1' in 20 dice, I'm talking about the ones who roll dice and snatched them up as fast they can and then tell you what they rolled. I've got nothing for those people but an ass chewing. I recommend others to do the same.

I'm sure everyone reading this has fallen victim to at least one of these things at a GT and sadly, people often win GT's using these methods.
I think something that should be done is that rather than have a "sportsmanship" score, there should be an 'honesty' score from 0-10 where these types of things can adversely impact the game.

These are just some helpful tips for people going to GT's for the first time.

NOT TRYING TO START A FL ME WAR. haha

Hear Hear....

I think you forgot one, the guy that bends the rules into fantasy land and has the clout with the TO's to make it happen. Often these "interpretatons" are merely a nod nod wink wink affair, but I've seen my share of it.

The best advice I've ever found is read every codex. This will mitigate much of what can be done, either intentionally or otherwise.

And lets not forget the slowplayer....

Master Shake,
It is good of you to have started this thread. 7e is new, and there are prolly newer players attending GTs. I will add:

Extra Movement Cheating:
It's usually avoidable whenI put my finger down where the guy's tape measure stops as he's measuring. When he tries to put the model on top of or passed my finger, well, it just doesn't work for him.

Dice Douchery:
I haven't seen it in a long time, fast-dicing. But I have seen 'no call' dice throws. A handful gets thrown with no verbiage. "Huh? What was that for?" And then the opponent states it was a d-terrain check for this unit instead of that one. A bad terrain check getting assigned to the less crucial unit, for example. Or a salvo for the one with the high AP weapons. I ask that next time, please call the dice intent. If/when it happens a second time, I ask for a reroll. Sports scores go down at that point and the unhappy mue ends up on his face.

Rule/stat goofs: Yeah, man. Easily solved, but requires some guts to stick up for yourself and say, "Oh, really? He can do that? Can you show me in the codex?" ... Maybe shy players should just have that printed on a 3x5" card.


Also, for the rest of new GT or RTT attendees:
Hunt down DashofPepper's dakka article on going to tourneys. It was 5e, but many general things still apply, even for other game systems.
Like bathing with deodorant soap, using deodorant (shove it, Poppa-Nurgle!) having Altoids, comfy shoes (no flip flops!), water bottles, fruit for snacks, etc.

Slow playing is also a biggie.

It is usually perpetrated by people who attend GT's regularly and have a fair grasp on the rules. Often times they will have you show them rules and ask questions they already know to kill time. 40k is a whole different animal when it's only 4 turns!

 Master Shake wrote:
Slow playing is also a biggie.

It is usually perpetrated by people who attend GT's regularly and have a fair grasp on the rules. Often times they will have you show them rules and ask questions they already know to kill time. 40k is a whole different animal when it's only 4 turns!

Ahhh, slow-hammer. Very common and relatively easy to mask.

 Brothererekose wrote:

Hunt down DashofPepper's dakka article on going to tourneys. It was 5e, but many general things still apply, even for other game systems.

I found this here http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tournament_Survival_Guide

Can we have a matching thread with literally like 20 times the things to watch out for that are good and awesome?

This kinda thread is custom built to exaggerate the already overblown mytho of tournaments being WAAC-ville.

MVBrandt wrote:
Can we have a matching thread with literally like 20 times the things to watch out for that are good and awesome?

This kinda thread is custom built to exaggerate the already overblown mytho of tournaments being WAAC-ville.

Those things are self-evident. I am genuinely dismayed that you would come in here and try to bad-talk people who are trying to STOP CHEATING. That's a very bad look for a TO.

 tomjoad wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
Can we have a matching thread with literally like 20 times the things to watch out for that are good and awesome?

This kinda thread is custom built to exaggerate the already overblown mytho of tournaments being WAAC-ville.

Those things are self-evident. I am genuinely dismayed that you would come in here and try to bad-talk people who are trying to STOP CHEATING. That's a very bad look for a TO.

He's doing nothing of the sort. He's trying to highlight the fact that there are 20 times as many good games as there are bad ones. I, on the other hand, think that number is low, but he has more experience.

But the good things at big events are obvious. You go there and they're all over. The cheating is hidden and it needs to be exposed so it can be killed. A TO who is fighting against that exposition sends the message that he would prefer it NOT be exposed, which sends the message that he doesn't mind the cheating. There was already a ton of talk about this on the BAO thread, so at least having an anti-cheating thread of it's own will let the other ones go back to talk about how great the events themselves are.

That's just crazy. He isn't covering anything up. He's trying to remind people that it is rare.

1) I think it is less rare than anybody is willing to admit, but fine.

2) I am just shocked that no major TOs take this serious, I guess. I would expect strong statements of support for an effort to stamp out cheating from guys like Mike Brandt and Reecius, but mostly what I hear from them is "Yeah, cheating is bad, but it doesn't happen much so we'll just keep doing what we do." I don't think it's enough and I think 40K would be a much stronger game and community if this was dealt with in a stronger way.

Not to devolve this in M:tG talk again, but I look at how much better and more serious that game got as a tournament system after they stamped out the cheats and I can't help but wonder how much better 40k could be if we followed suit.

MVBrandt wrote:Can we have a matching thread with literally like 20 times the things to watch out for that are good and awesome?

This kinda thread is custom built to exaggerate the already overblown mytho of tournaments being WAAC-ville.

I completely agree. I've had two bad games in competitive events, both against the same player. The number of great games and great opponents is many times that. These problems to watch out for are no different than those that occur in normal pickup games.

tomjoad wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
Can we have a matching thread with literally like 20 times the things to watch out for that are good and awesome?

This kinda thread is custom built to exaggerate the already overblown mytho of tournaments being WAAC-ville.

Those things are self-evident. I am genuinely dismayed that you would come in here and try to bad-talk people who are trying to STOP CHEATING. That's a very bad look for a TO.

Just as self-evident as most of the "cheating" to be watched out for. It is the exact same things you watch out for in normal play, just at a higher stakes. You know the rules and don't be afraid to call a person out when they are doing something that is breaking the rules. If it continues, call a judge over and deal with it. That is what sportsmanship is for.

tomjoad wrote:But the good things at big events are obvious. You go there and they're all over. The cheating is hidden and it needs to be exposed so it can be killed. A TO who is fighting against that exposition sends the message that he would prefer it NOT be exposed, which sends the message that he doesn't mind the cheating. There was already a ton of talk about this on the BAO thread, so at least having an anti-cheating thread of it's own will let the other ones go back to talk about how great the events themselves are.

Any cheating that does exist, especially the subtle minor cheating is almost impossible for a TO to effectively combat. Hell, I've been subject to it by a prominent tournament player, and the only thing you can do it watch closely, don't be afraid to call them out, and if you get the opportunity, call a judge over.

Your idea of spewing this kind of focused negativity which IMO does get blown out of proportion, does nothing for allowing players to get back and focus on how great events are, it does the exact opposite.

tomjoad wrote:1) I think it is less rare than anybody is willing to admit, but fine.

2) I am just shocked that no major TOs take this serious, I guess. I would expect strong statements of support for an effort to stamp out cheating from guys like Mike Brandt and Reecius, but mostly what I hear from them is "Yeah, cheating is bad, but it doesn't happen much so we'll just keep doing what we do." I don't think it's enough and I think 40K would be a much stronger game and community if this was dealt with in a stronger way.

Not to devolve this in M:tG talk again, but I look at how much better and more serious that game got as a tournament system after they stamped out the cheats and I can't help but wonder how much better 40k could be if we followed suit.

Yes it does happen, some players do it constantly. Its cheating by the smallest of degrees. I've been a victim of it, it sucks. But, you have to stand firm, call people out on it, and get judges and sportsmanship scores involved.

The biggest time it happened to me it was a bunch of minor things, something I premeasured was suddenly out of range after he bumped a model, moving models fast to gain an advantage premeasured to be impossible, misremembering key rules a former GT winner has used successfully hundreds of times, etc and I didn't bring a judge over early enough until it was too late. I did talk to the TOs immediately, and did give negative sportsmanship scores to the individual. That is all you can do. I wrote the summary in battle reports and made it public knowledge. That was all that could be done.

Stamping out this kind of cheating is virtually impossible as it is incredibly difficult to prove and demonstrate that it happened. The best the thing that you can do is call people out when they do it and stand your ground. There is no avenue for TOs to go on a crusade and end this kind of cheating by the slightest degrees. They can and have ended the major forms of cheating, illegal lists, weighted dice, etc. The small stuff is the toughest to deal with and is on the player base, not the TO to directly combat.

Crazy. I was just suggesting that for passers by, it would be good to see the good things that happen in events, not that it's bad to see risks as well.

Yeah, I think honestly for new players to any tournament, not just GTs, the very best thing to focus on is your own play. You really can't do anything about the other person, at least for the most part.

I mistakenly took advice from a thread like this on Dakka several years ago, and repeatedly asked my opponent to show me his rules during the game. Man, did I do that wrong . We reconciled later, but as an inexperienced tourney goer, I should have just been focusing on my play, not his.

Yes, there will be times your opponent will forget one of their own rules, whether on purpose or by mistake. If you're experienced, you can prompt them to play it the right way or double-check. But if you're new, really the best thing is to make sure you don't forget anything (you will!) and try to have fun.

I don't know why, but I always have trouble in the last game of events. I think I'm tired, and so less forgiving, and somehow the competitiveness of the event gets to me. But when I'm focused on making sure my own play is correct, and just having a great time, things go much better.

Just my take and experience when first going to tournies, since this is a heads up thread for new tourney players

I'm with mvbrandt on this one. If we focus too much on negativity, we don't end up killing cheating, we kill events instead. You cannot play this game assuming every opponent is going to cheat you. The best defense is to learn the rules, especially your own, the better you know your rules, the more aware you will be about what is happening on the table.

Events that willfully turn a blind eye to cheating deserve to die. There are far too many players as it is that get caught cheating on multiple occasions and are still prevalent on the tournament scene. TO's should band together to ban certain players who cheat on the regular from all events.

I seem to recall an event where a player was caught using a D6 with six sixes on it to seize the initiative at an event, yet that player I'm sure still attends GT's.

Saying that pointing out cheating to watch out for at GT'S is focusing too much on the negative is ridiculous. That's like saying "When you visit a beautiful country like Venezuela, don't drink the water." People still need to know. A sure fire way of making people don't attend GT's is for them be cheated constantly.

 Master Shake wrote:
Events that willfully turn a blind eye to cheating deserve to die. There are far too many players as it is that get caught cheating on multiple occasions and are still prevalent on the tournament scene. TO's should band together to ban certain players who cheat on the regular from all events.

I seem to recall an event where a player was caught using a D6 with six sixes on it to seize the initiative at an event, yet that player I'm sure still attends GT's.

Saying that pointing out cheating to watch out for at GT'S is focusing too much on the negative is ridiculous. That's like saying "When you visit a beautiful country like Venezuela, don't drink the water." People still need to know. A sure fire way of making people don't attend GT's is for them be cheated constantly.

As the king of bad analogies, I give yours 0/5.

I think it's fine to point it out and discuss it, Master Shake, and I think that based on the recent BAO events, perhaps more should be done to implement a way for players who may be consistently playing their rules incorrectly to be monitored (such as a single judge just dedicated to "fair play", rather than constantly putting out fires like most judges).

But, advice like this isn't really helpful for new GT attendees, imo (I.e. the OP of this thread). Rather, it's more something I'd like to see TOs and more experienced players be proactive about, and that would be a useful discussion have. In other words, is there a structural tweak that can be done to help minimize these occurrences, even more than is already done. Maybe not, but that part is worth at least considering, I think.

It's not just GT's, it's any game from pickup to local store to the biggest GT out there.
It happens, it will always happen, people want to win and sometimes they will see what they can get away with.

Most people are honest decent people that want a fair game so do not tar everyone with the same brush.

We are all (most of us) human and we also make mistakes. I have forgotten rules before both going against me and in my favour but it was never intentional.

I had players claim to do things they can't like targeting Fate weavers wing.

I've seen some very dodgey dice throws.

It happens, best thing to do is know your rules and ask a player nicely about something if you feel it isn't right. 90% of the time it won't be intentional.

Most importantly this isn't something you can remove from competitive play but you should also know its a rare thing to see.

 Master Shake wrote:
Events that willfully turn a blind eye to cheating deserve to die. There are far too many players as it is that get caught cheating on multiple occasions and are still prevalent on the tournament scene. TO's should band together to ban certain players who cheat on the regular from all events.

I seem to recall an event where a player was caught using a D6 with six sixes on it to seize the initiative at an event, yet that player I'm sure still attends GT's.

Saying that pointing out cheating to watch out for at GT'S is focusing too much on the negative is ridiculous. That's like saying "When you visit a beautiful country like Venezuela, don't drink the water." People still need to know. A sure fire way of making people don't attend GT's is for them be cheated constantly.

You miss the point though, by stating that lots of players at GTs cheat, you create the image that the experience is largely negative so people don't wan't to attend. IME cheating is very infrequent and often unintentional. This idea that tournaments turn a blind eye is also a falsehood, players don't report cheating when it occurs more often than not. I'm also not saying making people aware of certain types of cheating is bad. But propagating a myth that it happens frequently or is common place is really not a place to start. If the thread had been, in light of a recent report, here are some things you can do and look out for that would be fine. But framing it as a lot of people cheat, so you as a non-cheater, will tell us all how they cheat, comes off as negative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
But the good things at big events are obvious. You go there and they're all over. The cheating is hidden and it needs to be exposed so it can be killed. A TO who is fighting against that exposition sends the message that he would prefer it NOT be exposed, which sends the message that he doesn't mind the cheating. There was already a ton of talk about this on the BAO thread, so at least having an anti-cheating thread of it's own will let the other ones go back to talk about how great the events themselves are.

Essentially this thinking is the issue, if I go to a tournament the good things may very well be obvious, but if I read the internet and have never been, all I see is cheating, WAAC, WAAC CHEATING, GT player cheats......etc do I really want to go play against all those WAAC cheaters, certainly not. That is the point, cheaters are few and far between (especially those who do it intentionally). Should tournaments have a way to report cheating, yes they should, but in a game that is self judged it falls to the players to call what they see when it happens, and know the rules well to prevent it from happening.

It is in itself to state the types of cheating that exist, but it should be put in he light of something that is infrequent, and a small part of tournament play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the statement, that "there are far to many players who get caught cheating". What is far to many 2, 4, 10. I doubt as if I could name any players that I know who have been caught cheating multiple times at events.

 Master Shake wrote:
Events that willfully turn a blind eye to cheating deserve to die. There are far too many players as it is that get caught cheating on multiple occasions and are still prevalent on the tournament scene.

 Master Shake wrote:

"I seem to recall"

 Master Shake wrote:

" I'm sure still attends GT's".

Yea and sweeping generalizations are whats good for the game im assuming ? Your last two quotes are what bother me more.... say them enough to players and anything becomes a reality.

I think the idea behind this thread isn't something to be snuffed out, though I agree it should be explained more thoroughly in the initial post so it doesn't cast a negative shadow over all GT's.

I am with RiTides. I think Tournaments very much are stuck in a rut when it comes to cheating or mistake play. Ignorance isn't a valid excuse afterall. I think that there should be a station where serious mistakes or suspicious play are reported to. I also think players should be encouraged to use it. IME the availability and threat of such a tool alone will curb most problems.

The statement that most players don't report it out of indifference/laziness annoys me. Just use the BAO as an example, they had how many rules judges walking around? Less then 10 I think, for ~128 (I know some didn't show, but they should be ready for their commitment) thats one guy for six tables, they generally aren't polished with the rules themselves as unpaid volunteers go to boot, and generally tell you their is not much they can do. After all what can they do, they aren't judge dredd ? Now if every red flag was logged into say torrent of fire as a statistic, you could get an image of the quality of game these players provide. A big public log will have players self regulate.

I don't necessarily think a public log would be a good thing- but I do think having a dedicated way for players to air / report these grievances at the event could help.

In the BAO example, the player talked to a judge the next morning, but nothing was checked on / done, so he resorted to the court of public opinion on the net afterwards. A dedicated way to look into / handle it quickly and privately at the event would be much better.

Cheating can and does happen. It is up to the honest players and TOs to curb it. If someone gets over on you then let the TO know what happened so they are aware. TOs in the same regions should let each other know who are the abusive players. Raising a stink doesn't really help matters but it happens from time to time. Players shouldn't just expect the judges to take care of it without any prior knowledge - let them know immediately if you're having a problem.

Beginning a flame war was not my intention here. My intention was to make would be cheaters aware that people will be on the look out.

I'm hoping this year will be my best NOVA ever! (Fun wise)

As a brand new player who has never even seen a tournament, i appreciate seeing this post.
i don't agree with people telling you not to post it because it paints to negative of a view of the games, that's not how i took it, i read it more of like "hey just be aware this happens."

As a new player I'm not going to go looking for things on the list, but a quick read over them is fine, so if someone were to pull several outlined here throughout a game then i might, thanks to this post, realize what s/he was doing.

FYI I think it's important to help players understand what to look out for - I was sincere in wanting a corresponding thread or points within the same thread.

I honestly believe there's a level of cheating that occurs that people will always get away with, because they disguise it with ignorance. Also, a lot of times people do genuinely get rules wrong (and the natural optimism of wanting to win can cloud their desire to think hard on whether they have it right or wrong if their opponents also don't know and let it happen).

At the same time, there is a "type" of person who just by nature has the tendency to believe both the worst in people, and to want to blame the "obvious" TO cronyism, player cheating, etc., that must go on among competitive people and tournaments.

I've personally encountered far, far more cheating at the local game store level than in tournaments, probably for the simple fact that there's less at stake and a greater chance of not really experiencing long-term consequences. Tourney regulars don't cheat nearly so often, because they have to show their faces to the same people over and over again.

I apologize if I was misconstrued in my kneejerk response as wanting to cover up cheating or some other oddball translation; it's more that you OFTEN see people comment who've never been to tournaments with things like "SEE THIS IS WHY I'LL NEVER GO TO A TOURNAMENT RAWR," which is disappointing to hear, because I believe a LOT of pleasant, fun people are turned off going in the first place by horror stories that may or may not be exaggerations or proverbial drops in the ocean.

I'm happy there's another thread on the parallel subject is all.

I've got nothing for those people but an ass chewing. I recommend others to do the same.

Try to chew my ass and you'll discover why you don't try to out chew the son of a Marine DI, just saying. Even move funny and you'll discover why you never pick a fight with an old guy.

You sound like TFG.

I can't tell if you're:

1. Joking

2. Admitting you cheat with dice

3. Being a tough guy