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I'm going to assume that most people in the UK have seen this, but it's probably not reached overseas...

I present you

The Scottish Independence Referendum as interpreted by Sky News.

Yes, but its fun to turn everything into about one's nationality. It seems easy for the media to glaze over the xenophobia that goes on in politics, especially given the Tory party turning further to the right in order to stand against the fringe party UKIP. The current attitude of Westminster to the referendum is a bit insulting. I mean beyond all the apathy of considering the vote already won, nah, I'm reminded of that one point in Prime Minster's question time were the referendum was brought up and the politicians just started laughing (eugh, in that horrid guttural way in which do so comically). At the moment the BBC's spinning the whole affair quite well for the No campaign, something which Alex Salmond has made light of in his speeches and when talking to them, that and the politicians somewhat sours me towards the whole affair. It would seem that people seem fine to belittle one another freely with no regards as to what will happen after the referendum. Though talk of there being a xenophobic divide between the English and Scots (heaven forbid the Northern Irish and Welsh are part of the union as well) is a bit silly. Evidently British people are belligerent towards all those former empire countries as they became independent right? Irish and Canadians must be getting attacked in the streets for all the crap you hear being spouted by BBC interviewees. =P

God I'm going to love hearing what Nigel Farage comes out with during his speech when he turns up here (well if he chooses to hold it in a major city and if the locals don't scare him away like before).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to assume that most people in the UK have seen this, but it's probably not reached overseas...

I present you

The Scottish Independence Referendum as interpreted by Sky News.

I think that video's actually being used by one of the main national channels to advertise their referendum coverage...

I think Farage is wanting to have his rally/speech in Glasgow

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I think Farage is wanting to have his rally/speech in Glasgow

Ah, so he's intentionally going somewhere he knows he's going to be heckled to drum up support from his anti-Scot members? Its not like his party have much support here, but coming to Glasgow seems like just the place to go if you want to cause a gak storm.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Though talk of there being a xenophobic divide between the English and Scots (heaven forbid the Northern Irish and Welsh are part of the union as well) is a bit silly. Evidently British people are belligerent towards all those former empire countries as they became independent right? Irish and Canadians must be getting attacked in the streets for all the crap you hear being spouted by BBC interviewees. =P

Well, when you have some anglophobic (is that the right word to use? ) idiots making a case for independence, you're going to end up with some animosity in Scotland regardless of the outcome.

Heh, and saying that I had a pare of skinheads with swastika tattoos driving a car covered in union flags stop to heckle me last week. So yeah like you said idiots on both sides (though I wonder how many neo-nazis are supporting independence? Perhaps their goal would be to make a white only state here ...Yeah, not the smartest folks).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
[url]

 Medium of Death wrote:
Labour MP's arrive in Glasgow. Given a warm welcome.




Most seem to have taken it in good humour.

Really can't stand the Labour party though.

Imperial Masters? have they forgotten that we had a Scottish Prime Minister and Chanceller not that long ago?

Funny though.

Two Scottish Prime Ministers, Blair was born in Scotland also.

Funny if grossly unfair for the reasons given above. Also the joke will wear thin after the first few minutes. Twen minutes ok, you made your point, but if the protestor tried to play that loudly through the entire speech the police might have to intervene, following someone around playing very loud music is a breach of the Public Order act.

Frankly, the level of mild racism/classism that's come out along with Scottish nationalism has made me a little uncomfortable. When I see Darling or Cameron commenting on the referendum, it tends to be along the lines of, 'We think No is the right answer because we believe in a united kingdom and because it would be economically unwise'.

Meanwhile, whenever Salmond opens his gob, it's all, 'Oh, look at the Westministerians! English domination of Scotland', etc etc. I can't say I've read much about 'No' campaigners heckling Yes campaigners in the streets, but it seems to happen a fair chunk the other way around.

There's putting your point of view across, and then there's just doing things in a personal and disrespectful way. I feel the 'No' campaign is poorly served by Salmond. He's such a gobby hostile sort, he really diminishes from the argument for an independent Scotland.

Camerond and Salmeron. Truly chilling....

Hilarious. Sounds like two Lord of the Rings Wizards.

Beeb caught lying again.

Evidently someone thought they could deny that that occurred long enough for a spin to be put on the event to prevent damage to the BBC. At the moment I don't think they're continuing with the lie, just showing a cut down version of Salmond's answer (whilst downplaying the illegal activities) and continuing with the same line about the banks as before. The BBC's there to prop up the establishment so all you'll be hearing from them is pro No campaign propaganda, Unbiased they are not, but its the BBC, so that's hardly unexpected. Its just a pity that the media has so much control over everything, so inevitably this crap's going to put plenty of voters in the No camp.

As ever I'm just dying for the paperwork about all this crap coming out eventually. I'd prefer for this referendum to be clean, but evidently those who apparently have a lot to lose if Scotland does vote yes don't care for that. The same could be said of any type of mass voting, it just makes the whole matter rather sour though, and shows that the British establishment haven't changed their attitude since the last one (but hey at least we don't have Thatcherism to deal with now ...just a guy who said that she was his number one role model ).

* edit

Starting at around 09:20 is how the BBC later spun Salmond's answer. First they deny any wrong doing then smugly attack Salmond's position whilst totally ignoring the issues of illegal actions and their impartial stance. They've also cut the original question and the reporter then heckling Salmond as he moved on to answer other questions (because the BBC reporter wasn't getting the exact response he wanted). Trust the BBC though to have reinterpreted what happened to their advantage (their being the British government) and then spending the rest of the day running through the same lines about the Alex Salmond being useless and how great the British government is (youknow in a totally impartial manner). Eugh, again, this crap definitely puts me off the BBC and those that pull their strings.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
As ever I'm just dying for the paperwork about all this crap coming out eventually. I'd prefer for this referendum to be clean, but evidently those who apparently have a lot to lose if Scotland does vote yes don't care for that. The same could be said of any type of mass voting, it just makes the whole matter rather sour though, and shows that the British establishment haven't changed their attitude since the last one (but hey at least we don't have Thatcherism to deal with now ...just a guy who said that she was his number one role model ).

Who also described himself as the "Heir to Blair"...

Blair being "one of the men who ran this country into the ground", or something to that effect-quote Cameron. Blair also being a war criminal... Yes, pandering to who ever will throw him a vote and a few quid for his retirement fund. I don't see how people could respect that git for all the crap he's pulled in his tenure (as I've mentioned before the failed "let's sell off all of England and Wale's forests for logging to sort out the economy" plan is always a good one). I mean the Tories are a horrible political party (in their current incarnation and their previous "let's support slavery, anti-women's suffrage and let's go invade Scotland for the 20th time" style), but my loathing for them hit an extra special level when they have someone in charge (oh and this isn't just a Cameron/Thatcher bias, I head John Major making a speech a while ago in person and damn does that guy hate the working class).

Mr Salmond makes a fair point about the release of the current financial information that backs the No vote, but two things to remember Mr Salmond. This is politics, don't be naive, you would do the same thing if you had the chance. If you have the facts to prove these claims wrong bring them out in the open. Hold a press meeting and use these facts to dismiss these claims coming from Westminster. Use it as a chance to put a nail in the coffin of the Westminster elite and prove once and for all that they can't be trusted... or could they be right?

 Ketara wrote:
Frankly, the level of mild racism/classism that's come out along with Scottish nationalism has made me a little uncomfortable. When I see Darling or Cameron commenting on the referendum, it tends to be along the lines of, 'We think No is the right answer because we believe in a united kingdom and because it would be economically unwise'.

Meanwhile, whenever Salmond opens his gob, it's all, 'Oh, look at the Westministerians! English domination of Scotland', etc etc. I can't say I've read much about 'No' campaigners heckling Yes campaigners in the streets, but it seems to happen a fair chunk the other way around.

Thats exactly the feeling I am getting. There is a debate to be had, but any attempt to put across any argument by the no side is meet with allot of xenophobia of "English trying to tell us what to do" and "England hates the Scots!" which is just untrue. There is so many accusations of xenophobia coming the other way, but I am just not seeing it. The No side puts across a statement of fact and it is meet with "Stop telling us what to do!" and "Stop Bullying us!". Several banks come out and say "If there is a Yes vote we will move our business to London" days after a drop in the London markets, clearly trying to reassure their shareholders, the markets and their customers of the plans they have in place for the continuity and security of business, but no! This can't be a pertinent fact to the independence debate, showing that companies will want to remain in the UK, and pay tax in the UK, it must be bullying and the civil service being corrupt! Same with John Lewis. They say if their is a yes vote it may cost more to deliver to Scotland, as they will no longer be spreading delivery costs across the UK, where is costs the same to order if your 5 miles from there depo as it does to Fort William. No, this cant be a statement of fact and a pertinent bit of information about the costs of delivering to a less densely populated country, it must be bullying!

This constant reaction of "stop bullying us" and "The English hate us" rather than rebutting facts with facts, every time there is something from the No campaign is wearing very thin. It just proves time and again that Alex Salmond has no real substance to his campaign and it is just about ideology and xenophobia. I'm not saying that there are not arguments for independence, just as there are arguments against it, but we are being poorly served by the Yes campaign, and I do hope that if there is a yes vote it is not won over by the SNP's politics of hate.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
. I'd prefer for this referendum to be clean, but evidently those who apparently have a lot to lose if Scotland does vote yes don't care for that.

The only people I have seen not being clean is the Yes camp, with emotional nationalism, lies and personal attacks.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Several banks come out and say "If there is a Yes vote we will move our business to London" days after a drop in the London markets, clearly trying to reassure their shareholders, the markets and their customers of the plans they have in place for the continuity and security of business, but no! This can't be a pertinent fact to the independence debate, showing that companies will want to remain in the UK, and pay tax in the UK, it must be bullying and the civil service being corrupt! Same with John Lewis. They say if their is a yes vote it may cost more to deliver to Scotland, as they will no longer be spreading delivery costs across the UK, where is costs the same to order if your 5 miles from there depo as it does to Fort William. No, this cant be a statement of fact and a pertinent bit of information about the costs of delivering to a less densely populated country, it must be bullying!

RBS clarified their position by stating jobs were not at risk but this was just in line with financial regulations. Also the drop in the market has been recovered as markets do tend to vary a fair bit day to day, if independence was such a threat they would be consistently trending downwards.

The John Lewis interview also stated prices may diverge if taxing structures etc also diverge, a divergence doesn't automatically mean the price will increase.

This constant reaction of "stop bullying us" and "The English hate us" rather than rebutting facts with facts, every time there is something from the No campaign is wearing very thin. It just proves time and again that Alex Salmond has no real substance to his campaign and it is just about ideology and xenophobia. I'm not saying that there are not arguments for independence, just as there are arguments against it, but we are being poorly served by the Yes campaign, and I do hope that if there is a yes vote it is not won over by the SNP's politics of hate.

I'm sorry can you actually cite an incident of this english Xenophobia? I've not seen any of it living here...
Also to equate the Yes movement to Alex Salmond is deliberately facetious, he's just a politician on one side, nobody equates the whole of better together as Alastair Darling or David Cameron but you're free to do it about Alex Salmond even when he isn't running the Yes campaign.
And it would help to do some looking into issues at hand (I've never seen a more open policy towards immigrants being regarded as xenophobic before) and calling the SNP's policies "Policies of Hate", yes it's really hateful to help give people prescriptions without them g=having to pay or making it easier for poorer families to be able to send children to higher education without being saddled by crippling debt but I might be missing something there.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
. I'd prefer for this referendum to be clean, but evidently those who apparently have a lot to lose if Scotland does vote yes don't care for that.

The only people I have seen not being clean is the Yes camp, with emotional nationalism, lies and personal attacks.

Pretty much every BT post on Facebook is aimed at Alex Salmond, if Yes slip in a poll it's a "Blow for Alex Salmond" but if No slip it's a "Blow for Better Together Campaign" so calling The Yes camp nothing but personal attacks is deceiving at best. As for the "emotional Nationalism" what are you referring to exactly?
Are all yes supporters dieheart braveheart fans with large posters of Mel Gibson on our walls?
It's Better together that keep stressing nationality with things like "I'm proud to be Scottish but I love begin British" but the Yes camp as far as I've seen haven't gone near nationality at all; there's a reason why voter eligibility is for this referendum based off of where you are residing not your nationality, Sean Connery doesn't have a vote and a first generation immigrant does because they're the ones affected by the issues.
And for Lies I recently got a BT leaflet through my door Entitled "The Facts You Need for your big decision" which contained 5 "ordinary" and 2 celebrity opinions on why I should vote no (And some of those opinions were demonstrably false) and another Whic makes several claims
Leaving means Losing the Pound: Darling has already conceded this point and even if a currency union were not to be reached Westminster cannot stop anyone using GBP as it is an internationally traded currency.
Voting No means Safer pensions: The DWP have cave out saying there will not be changes to state pensions currently as you're already entitle to them and we currently don't revoke them for ex-pats in Spain etc. Source
There's No going back: This is just stating the outcome
Leaving the UK means a more expensive shopping trip: It also shows a made up receipt comparing Tesco Ireland and Tesco UK prices but Tesco have rejected this claim already Source
As part of the UK we get £1200 higher public spending per Head: Scotland currently puts in 9.4% and receives 8.4% in funding, the difference in public spending is down to differing policies between Holyrood and Westminster. Source
Losing the UK Pound means higher Interest rates: Well since Darling already confirmed iScotland could use it this point is mout

Or is this all anti-English drivel?

As regards using the pound, Scotland could either tie its new native currency to the international value of the GBP, or simply get hold of British banknotes and use them in shops. Either course of action has inherent difficulties and is a different situation to a genuine currency union.

The point about the banks is that there are several large financial institutions currently based in Scotland that handle large deposits such as pension fund investments that by the demographic nature of the UK belong mostly to the 90% of the UK population who don't live in Scotland. There are pretty obvious reasons why that situation would have to change in the absence of a currency union.

Banks fleeing over the border is important as it effects their location for tax purposes. Technically it doesn't matter to a Scottish person on the street as they can still bank at RBS. However what Salmond failed to accept is that a move of banking headquarters means that it will be taxable in England not Scotland denying Scotland a whole chunk of revernue, and also being primarily under the auegis of the Bank of England, not whatever national bank Scotland sets up.

As for Lloyds moving south, it refers to a separate division in Edinburgh. Yes Lloyds has its HQ in London, it has had since the 18th century, but its Edinburgh offices were seperate, nowe they are herading south for tax purposes. Salmond selectively ignores this.

Salmond did answer the question, just not very well.

As for BBC bias, the institution is New Labour to the core, and has been since the early 90's. If has had heavily biased reporting since that time, it even goes beyond news media. Comedy programs are tilted to favour lampooning one side and not the other. This was compounded under Blair when it because difficult to lampoon Labour in any British media, some shows like 2DTV managed for a while but were quickly starved out.

I am not surprised that the BBC is not impartial in its coverage, it hasn't been for over twenty years. Its not Camerons toy though.

Almost no one serious doubts that Scotland will be a relatively prosperous country in the long term, whichever road it chooses.

Equally independence is not a free lunch.

What Scots people have to decide is whether the prize of self-determination, self-government and self-expression is more valuable to them than a bit of economic growth and future financial prosperity that would be lost (and sorry that neither I nor anyone can quantify precisely this income sacrifice).

A good quote from Robert Peston.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

RBS clarified their position by stating jobs were not at risk but this was just in line with financial regulations.

Which is exactly what I said.

I'm sorry can you actually cite an incident of this english Xenophobia? I've not seen any of it living here...

Every single time people talk about "The English", "English toffs" and talk about being "ruled from London" as if the place of rule matters more than the policies of government. Every time people talk about the British empire and equate the better together campaign as part of some wish to control Scotland. They are phrases used time and again. And every time someone acts as if the rest of the UK has no right to say anything (and talks about the whole of the UK being "English"). We are all effected and we will all be worse of by the split.

Also to equate the Yes movement to Alex Salmond is deliberately facetious, he's just a politician on one side, nobody equates the whole of better together as Alastair Darling or David Cameron but you're free to do it about Alex Salmond even when he isn't running the Yes campaign.

They do all the time. People try and equate No to the Tory party. People do it right in this thread. Alex Salmond has placed himself at the "face" of the campaign. He has made it about him when the better together campaign has had many people talking and many people taking the lead. It is almost always Salmond who makes statements, speeches and puts his name on everything. He made it about him.

And it would help to do some looking into issues at hand (I've never seen a more open policy towards immigrants being regarded as xenophobic before) and calling the SNP's policies "Policies of Hate", yes it's really hateful to help give people prescriptions without them g=having to pay or making it easier for poorer families to be able to send children to higher education without being saddled by crippling debt but I might be missing something there.

It's specifically anti English xenophobia. Want to talk about policies for education? Whats the SNPs stance on university tuition fees post independance? Oh, yes, free for all EU residents except the English...

Pretty much every BT post on Facebook is aimed at Alex Salmond, if Yes slip in a poll it's a "Blow for Alex Salmond" but if No slip it's a "Blow for Better Together Campaign" so calling The Yes camp nothing but personal attacks is deceiving at best.

Alex Salmond made himself the face. Better together have tried very hard to make it about the facts, not the personality, knowing full well that they would lose if the current government got to close to it, not because of facts but because of a deep hatred in some areas for anything Tory.

As for the "emotional Nationalism" what are you referring to exactly?
Are all yes supporters dieheart braveheart fans with large posters of Mel Gibson on our walls?

No, but some are. Just look at the front of the Sunday Herald last week. Plastered in Sottish symbols.

Leaving means Losing the Pound: Darling has already conceded this point and even if a currency union were not to be reached Westminster cannot stop anyone using GBP as it is an internationally traded currency.
...
Losing the UK Pound means higher Interest rates: Well since Darling already confirmed iScotland could use it this point is mout

Voting No means Safer pensions: The DWP have cave out saying there will not be changes to state pensions currently as you're already entitle to them and we currently don't revoke them for ex-pats in Spain etc.

The argument was always that there would not be a sharing of the pound. No-one has said that Scotland couldn't unilaterally use the pound, but it would lose control over all monetary policy, no lender of last resort, no ability to issue sovereign debt, no ability to set your own interest rate. This WOULD drive up interest rates for government borrowing. It would also damage all public companies based in Scotland as there would continue to be a felling that it is just a temporary measure, and markets hate uncertainty.

It's not just the DWP that pays pensions. Pensions are reliant on the banks, the markets and buying government debt (as secure long term investment), all of which would be a problem for any pension company that says in an independent Scotland.

Just to be clear, I think both countries are better off together, but it is not clear cut. In the long term the world will keep turning whatever happens. What ever happens some people on both sides will be better off, some will be worse off. What worries me is that the Yes camp are happier to use these attacks, accusations of bullying and dismissing everything as lies rather than present their own facts. And because of this bitterness is building no matter what happens.

Its obvious whos behind the referendum, bungie so that we will get sick to death with hearing about the vote yes I know its 6 days away the presenter told me 30 minutes ago on the news and theyll tell me again in another 30 mins oh god when will it end, that it turn off the tv and play destiny for the next week.

On a side note.. I love the exchange of letters on the Scottish Parliaments own site, that basically clarifies they will not be automatically in the EU if they say Yes.

Surprised that's not getting more coverage tbh.

Nigel Farage has come and gone in Glasgow without any incident apart from a small number of protesters. Less than the amount of Police and Press by the accounts i'm seeing.

Wonderful.

The best thing about Scotland going it alone- there'd never be another Labour Party government again :-). A huge majority of their seats in Parliament are Scottish. That and I'd probably never see Alastair Darling's ridiculous black eyebrow/white hair combo again lol.

Gary Hayes in the New Statesman wrote:The poor old Westminster cronies, David Cameron in particular, are doomed if they do and condemned if they don't.

Such is the tension between Holyrood and Westminster that any kind of interaction is jumped on or avoided. On the one hand the Scots are saying "come up here and discuss the issue, you scaredy-cats" and on the other are just as quick to snap back "who do you think you are coming up here and telling us what to do?"

This struck me as particularly accurate.

If they hadn't taken so long as to actually bother their arses in coming up I could understand that point, Ketara. The way it has actually played out hasn't really come across that way.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
The best thing about Scotland going it alone- there'd never be another Labour Party government again :-). A huge majority of their seats in Parliament are Scottish. That and I'd probably never see Alastair Darling's ridiculous black eyebrow/white hair combo again lol.

I am not so sure, New Labour is a party of the middle classes, and the majority of the working class in northern counties wont vote Tory on principle.

 Medium of Death wrote:
If they hadn't taken so long as to actually bother their arses in coming up I could understand that point, Ketara. The way it has actually played out hasn't really come across that way.

Last time I checked Scotland has MPs that live in Scotland...

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
If they hadn't taken so long as to actually bother their arses in coming up I could understand that point, Ketara. The way it has actually played out hasn't really come across that way.

Last time I checked Scotland has MPs that live in Scotland...

Yes but the point is the 3 leaders didn't bother until a poll had them behind the yes campaign and suddenly they rush up to "Love bomb" us

I hope Scotland doesn't leave, mostly because I feel that their entire economy will collapse.


As for the being ruled by Westminster, everyone forgets that the only home country without some kind of devolved parliament is England.

I also don't get why they are so keen to join the EU. They hate Westminster for ruling the Scottish. Yet they want to willingly accept EU law. Which will take Scotland with even less regard due to the tiny population in comparison.