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What a nice, polite man.

Also:

https://twitter.com/YesDundee/status/512750627626049536

So, egg on that guys face perhaps.

And to quote someone

"You have to be a grade A moron to think voter fraud consists of putting yes votes on the no table and then letting the news film it in a room full of people."

 Sir Arun wrote:

That's just someone not knowing how counts work... she may have been tired, she might have mixed stuff up, but it doesn't matter others recheck the votes before they are tallied off, and if there is any discrepancy between the different counts, they recount the batch.

As for the 'infamous' table that was just Sky news assuming it was votes for no, where in reality it was just a really daft place to place votes before they where counted.. and the Yes campaign themselves acknowledged that not long after it came to light. The Yes campaign would have been watching the counts like a hawk.

At the end of the day the most telling thing last night was the sudden silence from Salmond and Sturgeon from the point of the polls close and the start of the announcements, they had obviously been informed it wasn't looking good, and their silence left me pretty confident as I went to bed.

It's interesting to see how various media outlets and whether they have the headline "Scotland rejects poll to become independent" or "Scotland choose to remain part of the United Kingdom". The former, which I've seen at Australia's ABC website (a government-funded body, but takes a kind of perverse pride in their leftward leanings), seems to imply that the people of Scotland have done something wrong by staying part of the UK. To be fair, the opposite statement does a similar thing, implying that remaining part of the UK is somehow purer or more righteous.

It'd be nice to see a headline that didn't so obviously flag the bias of the writer, something like "Majority of voters choose 'No' option.", and just leave it at that.

Anyway, I'm not sure what this decision means beyond the fact that nothing changes. The only frame of reference I have are the Republic debates that spark up here every now and again, which I'm always against because it seems like a lot of bother for very little gain. Obviously that isn't the same as a country leaving the UK, but I inherently hold the "Why bother?" attitude nonetheless.

As an aside, one of the striking images of a few years back were from the London Olympics. I've never seen such seas of Union Jacks in my life (outside of maybe celebrations related to the royal family). I do wonder how many of the people cheering for the UK and waving flags two years ago voted "Yes" in yesterday's poll? Hmm...

In solidarity with Scotland, the weather across England is wet and horrible.

Though probably not as wet as Salmond's tear stained pillow.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

That's just someone not knowing how counts work... she may have been tired, she might have mixed stuff up, but it doesn't matter others recheck the votes before they are tallied off, and if there is any discrepancy between the different counts, they recount the batch.

As for the 'infamous' table that was just Sky news assuming it was votes for no, where in reality it was just a really daft place to place votes before they where counted.. and the Yes campaign themselves acknowledged that not long after it came to light. The Yes campaign would have been watching the counts like a hawk.

At the end of the day the most telling thing last night was the sudden silence from Salmond and Sturgeon from the point of the polls close and the start of the announcements, they had obviously been informed it wasn't looking good, and their silence left me pretty confident as I went to bed.

Agreed with Morathi.

This is a not a means of rigging an important election, too many people, too easy to check and recount. Though large scale 'counting error' is a prominent rigging strategy in less important elections. I am pretty sure some of my own town council elections went this way as I have spoken to eye witnesses of this type of fraud at local elections. There were vote rigging fears though, and I was told that the police were at the voting stations to ensure both sides got a good look at the count process and had every opportunity to point our 'errors'.

To rig a vote properly:
- vote on behalf of he recently dead (graveyard voting)
- exchange unwanted voting slips with preassigned ones (ballot swapping)
- add extra bogus voting slips to the box (ballot stuffing, - though ballot stuffing is hard to do in the Uk system as the vote tally is marked several ways)
- spoil unwanted ballot papers (spoiling - the easiest method but unworkable over large amounts of people, forget it here)
and my favourites
steal the postal vote of or simply deregister an unwanted voter. - Both New Labour favourites done frequently enough in parts of the UK.

I have heard of the latter being attempted in Scotland, a personal aquaintance and prominent local No supporter found it very difficult to re-register to vote, and had to ask several times for his ballot slip as the Council had 'administrative problems'. Though those are likely the actions of a few individual council worker tits rather than any official mishandling.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
In solidarity with Scotland, the weather across England is wet and horrible.

Though probably not as wet as Salmond's tear stained pillow.

Salmond gets a very nice consolation prize, some say Devo Max is what he always wanted. I dont agre with that as he wont get to be President, but he will get an even bigger trough to feed in and a lot of power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's interesting to see how various media outlets and whether they have the headline "Scotland rejects poll to become independent" or "Scotland choose to remain part of the United Kingdom". The former, which I've seen at Australia's ABC website (a government-funded body, but takes a kind of perverse pride in their leftward leanings), seems to imply that the people of Scotland have done something wrong by staying part of the UK. To be fair, the opposite statement does a similar thing, implying that remaining part of the UK is somehow purer or more righteous.

It'd be nice to see a headline that didn't so obviously flag the bias of the writer, something like "Majority of voters choose 'No' option.", and just leave it at that.

Difficult, you have to lead with the line that explains which country you are talking about.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Anyway, I'm not sure what this decision means beyond the fact that nothing changes. The only frame of reference I have are the Republic debates that spark up here every now and again, which I'm always against because it seems like a lot of bother for very little gain. Obviously that isn't the same as a country leaving the UK, but I inherently hold the "Why bother?" attitude nonetheless.

a yes vote would have triggered seperatism in different forms worldwide, this has now been averted. There will be pressure for the SNP to permanently accept the referendum results from within Europe now. The referendum happened, it was lost and if they ask for another one (not unlikely) Spain Italy and France will howl a demand that the Uk government puts its foot down and say the current referendum stands.
During the campaign there was been a sympathy among cybernats that Scotland has the right to demand referenda every session of parliament until successful because 'democracy'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

As an aside, one of the striking images of a few years back were from the London Olympics. I've never seen such seas of Union Jacks in my life (outside of maybe celebrations related to the royal family). I do wonder how many of the people cheering for the UK and waving flags two years ago voted "Yes" in yesterday's poll? Hmm...

Hippomania

 Orlanth wrote:
Salmond gets a very nice consolation prize, some say Devo Max is what he always wanted. I dont agre with that as he wont get to be President, but he will get an even bigger trough to feed in and a lot of power.

I think it is what he wanted as well (other than not getting to be Emperor Salmond) - lots more power and "wealth" to spend, and still "THE ENGLARSH!" to blame.

So, as I suspected, Scotland bottled independence. The first country in the world to do so...

Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, or even Americans, beware - you might have me turning up on your shores looking for a fresh start

I feel sorry for the Yes voters, the poor who will suffer, and for Scotland when Westminster's empty promises turn out to be...empty.

But for those Yes people still wanting to fight on, here's one of my favourite historical examples of never giving up:

in 1776, under pressure from congress, George Washington tried to capture New York from the British. It was a disaster. He lost the battle of Long island, he lost the battle of white shore plain, he very nearly lost the war. In his darkest hour, with most of his army drifting away, Washington lost his cool, something he rarely done. He lashed out at his men, he hit rock bottom...Few believed that Great Britain could be defeated...

But even in his darkest hour, Washington believed, he never gave up...he got on that boat and gave us a famous painting of crossing the Amazon...or was it the Nile

Thanks to David McCullough for that

But seriously, it is one of my favourite historical examples of triumphing against the odds.

Whilst there were a vocal minority shouting about the ills of "English Oppression" the majority of Yes voters I believe simply wanted closer and greater self determination that many felt could not be provided under the current political system. I certainly didn't vote Yes because I hate the rest of the UK, and I found the nationalist or patriot arguments on both sides wearying. I've noticed today that there's a large rift in the community as my council was one of the most closely divided. I don't think reducing either sides arguments down to the most base and vile sentiments is going to help us heal.

I'm fully expecting a vote in the next few years to devolve England from the rest of the UK, which presumably will be the new priority judging by the words of Mr Cameron this morning.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

Now comes the difficult part, both sides have to accept the result.

IMO, big picture, I think that this vote SHOULD sort of "open" the eyes of the people in London/Parliament that not everything is peachy keen. That there are some out there who are deeply inhappy with perceived or real injustices.


While I am not naive to think that this will "fix" the problems that Scotland had that led to them wanting this vote, I do hope that more people will be amenable to policies that help, and also treat the Scots with deserved respect.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Both sides in Scotland has to accept the result. The question was asked and an answer was given, complaining that the answer was not the one you wanted is not going to change that. Some will still push for the referendum to be recounted, votes cast again, ad infinitum until they get a yes vote. Yes lost. No won, lets get over it and move on. Politics in the UK have had a shift in the 'bedrock' of the establishment. If those promises given are not followed through then all bets are off.

Scotland has had a persecution complex for what feels like forever, nothing Is ever our fault it is always someone else to blame. But the Scots are also good at bearing a grudge that would put a dwarf to shame, those that voted Yes will not forgive or forget those that voted No.

Cheers

Andrew

Once again, stating that an entire nation has a persecution complex and is good at bearing grudges does not help anyone "get over it" if they need to.

I'm curious Zond, I grew up on the south side of Glasgow in the 70/80s so there may be a generational shift here, but look at the bedrock of the Student Unions argument here. Thatcher is bad, so vote for independence. Ditto for resisting anything proposed by the Tories

The persecution complex has always been there along with that grudge.

Cheers

Andrew

Crap. Send the recall order for Operation Texas Haggis. Oh well. Next time my pretties. Next time.

As I've said there were certainly elements of raving nationalism and feelings of persecution on both sides of the campaign. I've seen plenty of "Vote Yes To Kick The Tories Out" posters and equally as many "Vote No To Keep The Union and Remove the Left Majority".

Both sides had blanket moronic statements being issued. Whilst there's no point hiding it and it should certainly be addressed it's clear they were issued by the extreme vocal minorities on both sides.

All I'm saying is that if everyone is to move on and continue the political shift that seems to now be sweeping the UK in a respectful, democratic manner blanket, sweeping generalisations about a nation aren't going to help.

As has been mentioned here and by Salmond this morning, he's still came out on top of this. The Yes campaign didn't win the vote, but they came out with what they had wanted in the first place. It was the Westminster government which removed the additional powers option from the ballot, their promising it later on for those who backed No rather than it as a separate option just shows a bias. Were those extra powers always on the table? Well they must have been planned for a while. How they were presented though make Westminster come out over the SNP, rather than the other way around. Meh, but whatever, I'm just dissapointed I won't be having a snazzy new flag next to my Dakka profile.

 Frazzled wrote:
Crap. Send the recall order for Operation Texas Haggis. Oh well. Next time my pretties. Next time.

Wouldn't have worked, US Customs would have confiscated all the Haggis as biohazardous waste.....

 Frazzled wrote:
Crap. Send the recall order for Operation Texas Haggis. Oh well. Next time my pretties. Next time.

There are many things I dislike about America: foreign policy, gun laws, and giving the green light to star trek enterprise!!! Probably the worst TV series I have ever seen!!

But I've always admired their pride in themselves, their fighting spirit, and their self-belief. I wish Scotland had that level of pride and self-belief...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Crap. Send the recall order for Operation Texas Haggis. Oh well. Next time my pretties. Next time.

There are many things I dislike about America: foreign policy, gun laws, and giving the green light to star trek enterprise!!! Probably the worst TV series I have ever seen!!

But I've always admired their pride in themselves, their fighting spirit, and their self-belief. I wish Scotland had that level of pride and self-belief...

I don't know about that, I mean they plowed through with the belief that Scotland could survive anything economically/politically by leaving the UK regardless of issues that have been mentioned by both sides that would happen.

.. so will Salmond survive as SNP leader then ?

I think so. He delivered a referendum as promised. And so far he's been very gracious and a proponent of unity in defeat.

Well considering he didn't have an actual plan in place for independence, I doubt he has a plan for losing.

I'm slightly disappointed. I was looking forward to telling people that I like foreign food whenever I eat a Scotch Egg…...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
So, as I suspected, Scotland bottled independence. The first country in the world to do so...

They didnt 'bottle it' they saw rthrough it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I feel sorry for the Yes voters,.........

Acceptable sympathy.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

the poor who will suffer, and for Scotland when Westminster's empty promises turn out to be...empty.

Cameron can and will deliver on his promises of greater devolution. He wants to go the wghole hog and bring our devolution for all the UK including getting rid of the West Lothian question.
It was Salmond who could not deliver on his promises but made them anyway.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But for those Yes people still wanting to fight on, here's one of my favourite historical examples of never giving up: <snip>

Gong to put my foot down hard on this one

This is not 1776, not a colonial situation and TERRORISM IS NOT AN ANSWER.

The last thing anyone wants is for some braindead moron, whether you or someone else, deciding that if you cant win iScotland at the ballot box, try it with the gun.
FFS grow a brain before its too late.

You gave it a go, now back to normal with everyone!

 AndrewC wrote:

Sorry I wasn't clear. Both sides in Scotland has to accept the result. The question was asked and an answer was given, complaining that the answer was not the one you wanted is not going to change that. Some will still push for the referendum to be recounted, votes cast again, ad infinitum until they get a yes vote. Yes lost. No won, lets get over it and move on. Politics in the UK have had a shift in the 'bedrock' of the establishment. If those promises given are not followed through then all bets are off.

Agreed. However if the SNP have any suspicions that the vote was improperly counted and demand a recount that should be respected. So long as it is proven only legal votes from the day or postal votes already accepted by the postal vote deadline are counted.

 AndrewC wrote:

Scotland has had a persecution complex for what feels like forever, nothing Is ever our fault it is always someone else to blame. But the Scots are also good at bearing a grudge that would put a dwarf to shame, those that voted Yes will not forgive or forget those that voted No.

such is always the result of a ballot, those who say 'what if' and those who blame others for lost dreams. It is unhealthy but it is to be expected.
The same could be said if Yes had won. I could say more so, but that would be in this case an unfair comment. Yes voters have every right to their opinions and to thus to feel disappointed by the ballot, so long as the democratic process is respected.
I for one am not going to spend the day gloating at the Yers supporters from this thread, to them the vote was a tragedy and those are lawful sentiments and they have all due sympathy. Such opportunities do not appear often and many have waited all their lives for the opportunity to vote Yes yesterday.

 reds8n wrote:
.. so will Salmond survive as SNP leader then ?

Short term yes, long term "et tu Nicola?"

Well looks like it's Nicola Sturgeon's turn at SNP leadership.

Salmond is resigning and cameron is setting up a group to look at putting his promises into action.

 Holdenstein wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
.. so will Salmond survive as SNP leader then ?

Short term yes, long term "et tu Nicola?"

Well that was a terrible prediction.

 Holdenstein wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
.. so will Salmond survive as SNP leader then ?

Short term yes, long term "et tu Nicola?"

Emphasis on the "short term".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...I WANT.



Salmon is my favourite fish.
I like battered fish.

This should be a new national delicacy.

 Holdenstein wrote:

 Holdenstein wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
.. so will Salmond survive as SNP leader then ?

Short term yes, long term "et tu Nicola?"

Well that was a terrible prediction.

Michael Fish called wants you to get back to him about a consultancy he's setting up