Scottish Independence Debate.

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**Medium of Death**

Sad day for George Square.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86lrybeUXIg&feature=youtu.be

**MrDwhitey**

Seeing the obscene comments demonising the English in the youtube chat feed clearly shows the Yes voters for what they really are.

Am I doing it right?

Also oh wow, some just compared this to Ukraine. Hahahhahahahahahahahahaha*1049389953 million.

**Orlanth**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm not going to resort to insults (probably because the mods will open up a can of whoop-ass on me )

and I apologise for the caps BUT I AM NOT ADVOCATING TERRORISM!!

Very well crafication accepted.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I am disgusted by the insinuation. To be fair to you, you don't know me, and an internet forum is not the best place to convey a conversation, but I was using George Washington as a historical example of never giving up. I was not advocating violence.

George Washington was a poor analogy. One of the facts airbrushed out of history was that the revolutionary movement drowned out the early majority sympathy for loyalism. Washington failed to get an actual democratic mandate and instead decided on military action.
However the 13 Colonies were a colonial situation so the move was legally justifiable, and the US was taken by a combination of conquest and treaty.

'We the people' came later, at the time it was written had their been a referendum the loyalists would have won, and Washington knew this to be true.

Still it didn't end out badly so.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Never! Never! Never!

How?

You cant go down the route of demanding more refenda until you get the answer you want. It will be laughed at and flatly denied. This was why Scotland was given the referendum on Scotland's terms. The only interference was in the wording of the question. Westminster complained that the orginal question 'Do you agree that Scotland should be axn independent country' was leading and demanded a rewrite. Still it was the SNP who wrote the ballot question, and the SNP who chose the timing of the election which they set for 2014 to coincide with the anniversary of Bannockburn. The referendum could have been held two years ago, but the decision to leave it to the Scottish First Minister was justifiable, fair and meant that Scotland alone would make its say.

That has now happened, from this point on the whole of the UK is part of the issue, and the majority don't want the break up of the Union, it's very clearly not in Englands interest.

So your last option is to force the issue.

Now if Cameron doesn't deliver on his promise you have a window. You can point at the possibility of this if you like, it would be a shrewd move by the SNP to do so. It would also be shreweder to shut up and see if Cameron does something as madly retrograde as to deny his promise to Scotland. THEN call for a revote.

**notprop**

Right so the Scots piss and moan through most of the last two years and the end result is the the rest of UK will now have to have at least one more layer of mewing politicians to put up with.

Because Local and Euro elections are so popular.....

Thanks a fething bunch Scotland.

**MrDwhitey**

Cameron bloody should follow through on it, and damn the Tory backbenchers threatening rebellion over it.

**notprop**

It's been less than a day.

A bit soon for theatrics i fancy.

Please try to remember your British (even you lot in the cold wet bit) - keep calm and carry on!

**MrDwhitey**

I agree, the theatrics from the tory backbenchers* are pretty sad.

*And everyone bloody else too.

**Co'tor Shas**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Seeing the obscene comments demonising the English in the youtube chat feed clearly shows the Yes voters for what they really are.

Am I doing it right?

Also oh wow, some just compared this to Ukraine. Hahahhahahahahahahahahaha*1049389953 million.

It's kind of entertaining the level of outrage the commenters have reached.

I'm personally slightly relived that the vote ended as no. I don't really care about Scotland leaving, I just don't want another recession.

Alo, who decided to do this vote on simple majority? It seems to me that a super-majority would make more sense in a decision as monumentus as this.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I can't help but piss myself every time a Scot complains about bias in the BBC. Is this really news to you? Have you only just now noticed the BBC's rampant bias, now that that bias has is not in your favour?

YES the BBC is biased. Its been biased for decades. Its institutionally left wing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bright side...After another 5 years or so of Scottish whingeing and Anglo-phobia, you could give us English a referendum and WE would vote to get rid of Scotland.

Maybe thats Salmond's master plan...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
OOO...got tingles all over when the crowd started chanting "Rule Britannia" at the 2:05 mark.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm going to boot up Total War and go conquer Scotland to celebrate.

**Orlanth**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Cameron bloody should follow through on it, and damn the Tory backbenchers threatening rebellion over it.

The Tory 'backbenchers' (actually a Junior minister) will be back in line with the announcement that Devo Max is not just for Scotland.

Devo Max for Scots alone is genuinely unfair, especially for the English with no devolution of their own. However with Devo max for everyone the arguments are nullified and the Tories will be all for it. It's Labour who will lose out.

In effect Cameron has 'listened' to his detractors in the party and amended the Devo Max plan so that England is not unfairly disadvantaged. Frankly I think this was his plan all along and Labour played into his hands the cards he needed.
On thing about Cameron, corrupt Eton-crony only grasper that he is, he does have a knack at manipulation of other politicians. He has had an alliance with Clegg and given Clegg nothing out of it. the Lib Dems got two free votes on issues they wanted, including proportional representation, but then did a deal with Labour to scupper them. He has used the coalition to keep himself in office with a minority government and not had to pay for it by backing Lib Dem policies to conclusion. Clegg on the other hand had to go on TV and apologise for a total U-turn on tuition fees. He outmaneuvered the Lib Dems, now he has outmaneuvered Labour also and got the Tories (and England) into range of a benefit that is much to be desired.

However he did have to concede the continuation of the Barnett formula, though with Devo Max its effect will be lessened.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

On the bright side...After another 5 years or so of Scottish whingeing and Anglo-phobia, you could give us English a referendum and WE would vote to get rid of Scotland.

it has bee mentioned by some in England. However it would be a catastrophe to abolish the Union ourselves as too much of our natioanl structure and intenatioanl powerbase depends on being the United Kingdom of Greart Britain and Northern Ireland. That might survive the loss of Northern Ireland, it would not survive the loss of Scotland or Wales.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

OOO...got tingles all over when the crowd started chanting "Rule Britannia" at the 2:05 mark.

Which video, I would like to see the link. Could do with an uplift.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I think I'm going to boot up Total War and go conquer Scotland to celebrate.

Thats naughty, go take on the French instead. You get more of a challenge and much better generals speeches.

**Kilkrazy**

Wyrmalla wrote:
As has been mentioned here and by Salmond this morning, he's still came out on top of this. The Yes campaign didn't win the vote, but they came out with what they had wanted in the first place. It was the Westminster government which removed the additional powers option from the ballot, their promising it later on for those who backed No rather than it as a separate option just shows a bias. Were those extra powers always on the table? Well they must have been planned for a while. How they were presented though make Westminster come out over the SNP, rather than the other way around. Meh, but whatever, I'm just dissapointed I won't be having a snazzy new flag next to my Dakka profile.

The "extra powers" are rather nebulous, though.

The Scottish parliament has since 2012 had the legal right to vary income tax by up to 10p in the pound, and in 2015 gets the power to issue government bonds. These are considerable powers that were already locked in by legislation before the referendum.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Wyrmalla wrote:
As has been mentioned here and by Salmond this morning, he's still came out on top of this. The Yes campaign didn't win the vote, but they came out with what they had wanted in the first place. It was the Westminster government which removed the additional powers option from the ballot, their promising it later on for those who backed No rather than it as a separate option just shows a bias. Were those extra powers always on the table? Well they must have been planned for a while. How they were presented though make Westminster come out over the SNP, rather than the other way around. Meh, but whatever, I'm just dissapointed I won't be having a snazzy new flag next to my Dakka profile.

The "extra powers" are rather nebulous, though.

The Scottish parliament has since 2012 had the legal right to vary income tax by up to 10p in the pound, and in 2015 gets the power to issue government bonds. These are considerable powers that were already locked in by legislation before the referendum.

They're not considerable powers - they are a financial trap, and Scotland walked straight into it. If Scotland starts raising its own cash, their block grant will be affected, so money that is rightfully Scotland's anyway, will be cut. In Scotland, turkeys do vote for Christmas.

**WrentheFaceless**

So been silently watching the whole thing since the outset

Correct me if I'm wrong, "Liberal" and "Conservative" mean different things in the UK than the US right?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Orlanth wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Not all Scottish MPs vote on English matters. SNP MPs don't as a matter of principal.

That is their choice.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I think you're being naïve about more devolution for Scotland. Scotland said no, Westminster doesn't care about it anymore.

Normally I would agree with you. Westminster is corrupt and self serving (but then so is Holyrood)....

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The possibility of a YES vote was their only ace - they threw it away. They have nothing to threaten Westminster with, anymore. As for Westminster, they've got bigger fish to fry with UKIP, EU referendum, and Boris Johnson! Scotland will be forgotten about, left to die of neglect. It happened during the 1980s. History will repeat itself...

....However it is in Camerions interest to fulfil his promise, Emnglisgh deolution is important to the Tories and Lib Dems.

Even if it wasnt it would be a monumentally stupid thing to renege on the pledge now. As Camerion promised Devo Max to Scotland during the referendum campaign, if he fails to deliver on this one promise that will be cause to forfeit the result of the campaign. I can see the demand: 'Cameron didn't offer what he promised Scots in the referendum therefore we demand another referendum!"
While the SNP will demand referenda anyway that can be written off as just the Loons talking, it will be an annual event. Westminster has largely butted out of the process, and made only one promise to Scotland related to the referendum, they made the promise freely and all three parties signed it. It would be colossally stupid to back out now.

Put it another way, if the Tories through short sightedness (and admittedly all the parties are they are greedy and short sighted) it will destabilise a now stable system. If one poll could cause a huge dip in the pound and a panic in the Square Mile. What would a new referenda based on a broken deal do. For a start Yes would likely win and second the City will lose a LOT of money very quickly, and more as foregn govenmenrt smell blood in the water and take what we have got.
Those people in the City don't like to lose money and both Labour and Tory are beholden to them, for better or worse. And while politicians may be short sighted, these investors are not.

On a point of real politik even if we assumed that the MPs are greedy (which is true), short sighted (usually true) and idiotic (sometimes true) they like thier own jobs enough and the people in the City like London's wealth enough that realpolitik will force the issue: Scotland will get its election promise, Cameron's own financial backers will demand it.

Believe that not because the politicans say so (its wise of you not to) believe it because the future of the UK economy requires it, and the City millionaires that account for the vast majority of the economic clout this nation has got (Scottish oil being a distant second) will demand it.

You may not like this, noone likes the Fat Cats. But the truth is the Fat Cat's have two homes: New York and London. Even Tokyo cannot muscle in on this, and if London loses the cattery bang goes the economy. The City of London largely pays for the lifestyle the average Briton takes forgranted. I hope you now see the economic severity of our recent position.

The good news for Scotland is that Scots will still be plugged into London long after the North Sea has given up its bounty. Generationally, it was a shred choice.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As for Labour, I think they are finished in Scotland.

They will bounce back. Gordon Brown was a joke of a politician but he did a good job in the referndfum contest. Labour will be seen as th best option to keep Tories out and the SNP will be a wasted vote. With Devo Max tory government policy wont hurt so much anymore. Scotland can set its own Tax and benefits and spending on things that matter to people. The UK will only really exist for emergency measures, running the highest courts of apeeal (discounting the EU) foreign policy, national debt handling and anything military, and in all of those issues a Scot has a fair chance of being the person in charge.

Labour needs Scotland, especially with English devolution imminent, and Scotland needs Labour. Anyone Scottish wanting real power in a poltiical career has a good chance of becoming a Minister or even Prime Minister if they join Labour and move up the party to the top. They could also serve as MSP's.
I can see Labour gaining ground from SNP in the next Scottish parliament election.

Cameron's promises are not worth the paper they are written on. Scotland has sleepwalked into oblivion.

This is what will happen to Scotland, now that it threw away the only bargaining chip it had. With the general election upon us, the parties will split into party lines, and will be unable to agree on any powers. UKIP and the EU will distract everybody, with Scotland forgotten about.

Even if they did remember Scotland, where is the parliamentary time to implement anything? Miliband is already talking about a convention NEXT year!!!

Scotland blew it, and will rue the day that it ever trusted any Westminster promise....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

WrentheFaceless wrote:
So been silently watching the whole thing since the outset

Correct me if I'm wrong, "Liberal" and "Conservative" mean different things in the UK than the US right?

No, they mean the same thing as in the USA. Both have near identical policies, both are beholden to banks and big business, and both couldn't give a damn about voters except at election time. So yeah, no difference between the US and UK or liberals and conservatives.!

**WrentheFaceless**

Ah ok, I guess I was confusing myself then haha. Thanks

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
Ah ok, I guess I was confusing myself then haha. Thanks

Republicans/Democrats or Labour/Liberal/Conservative in the UK: different colours/emblems but essentially the same policies, the same old broken two party system. But I think you already knew that!

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

No...America's Republicans are far more Right Wing than our Conservatives. At best, the Tories are Centre Right.

Britain in general is very left wing compared to the USA.

**Orlanth**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
No...America's Republicans are far more Right Wing than our Conservatives. At best, the Tories are Centre Right.

Britain in general is very left wing compared to the USA.

Just about everywhere is left wing compared to the USA. Us Democrats are as left as it feasibly gets and the left edge of that is about equal to the Lib Dems. Tories straddle the Republicans and Democrats (and generally get on with both), Labour would be seen as 'commies' and the Greens and SNP are to the left of Labour.

Hey Shadow Captain Edithae can you answer my question to you in my last post please.

**Co'tor Shas**

Our Green party is probably about equal to Labor.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Orlanth wrote:
Hey Shadow Captain Edithae can you answer my question to you in my last post please.

The live Youtube video that someone else posted earlier on. I rewound it back to the point when the result was announced, and the crowd broke out into an impromptu rendition of Rule Britannia.

It was quite moving.

Or infuriating, depending on your perspective.

**Orlanth**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Hey Shadow Captain Edithae can you answer my question to you in my last post please.

The live Youtube video that someone else posted earlier on. I rewound it back to the point when the result was announced, and the crowd broke out into an impromptu rendition of Rule Britannia.

It was quite moving.

Or infuriating, depending on your perspective.

Thankyou, I only saw live feed, I will workout how to wind it back.

Afterwards....

Ok allowing for the jeering it was a Glasgow sectarian mob out to taunt Yes voters. I didnt hear Rule Britannia but I did hear a lot of football chants. Similar to those monetioned earlier on this thread. A journalist has already condemned them here amongst elsewhere.

Disappointed as I was hoping for something more wholesome.

Now on reflection I would not be too alarmed, its not so much a hard line of the better Together in any form, its just Glasgow on a Friday night. Rangers vs Celtic sectarianism etc etc, having spent some time in Paisley I know how bad it can get. This sort of crap is normal for Glasgow, only tonight there is a special excuse. Know one or two Glasgow police too, pronounced pheonetically as 'pauless' by locals. I bet this is nothing like what they have seen and the extra cameras might mean less fights rather than more.
Still I would be careful about noticed speaking with an English accent anywhere near Pollokshields tonight.

**Medium of Death**

This is not a typical Glasgow Friday night. How fething dare you.

It's hordes of sectarian, unionist, royalist morons attacking people in the street.

**Orlanth**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Cameron's promises are not worth the paper they are written on. Scotland has sleepwalked into oblivion.

Evidently we cannot agree,. i trust the promise even though I don't trust Cameron.

Still the General Election is only seven months away, Cameron has until then to fulfil his promise. Either he will, or he wont. We will find out soon enough who is right and who is wrong.
I am happy to wait and see, I suggest you do also. If you give Cameron a fair chance to deliver Devo Max and he doesn't then you have justifiable leverage to call for a revote as the promise was conditional on a No vote. Scotland delivered that, so there is a well documented moral contract position now.

Frankly I think it would be catastrophic to cheat Scotland by reneging on the devolution.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Medium of Death wrote:
This is not a typical Glasgow Friday night. How fething dare you.

It's hordes of sectarian, unionist, royalist morons attacking people in the street.

What horde.
What attacking people.

I saw football chants and police presence.

Also being unionist and royalist doesnt make one a moron.

And yes Glasgow can get this bad. I have seen the bullet holes in the rival cafes.
And Paisley is allegedly stabbing capital of Europe.

**Medium of Death**

I live there.

You only need to look on social media to see what's happening. Stop pontificating on something you actually don't know about for once.

Edited by RiTides

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

From what I can see that lot deserve as much credence as a EDL rally... they're looking for trouble, and the best thing to do is to ignore their existence from a political stand point, unless they break the law, in which case let the Police deal with them.

They aren't a fair representative of the greater no vote, and I suspect they would have come out tonight had it been a Yes as well.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Orlanth wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Cameron's promises are not worth the paper they are written on. Scotland has sleepwalked into oblivion.

Evidently we cannot agree,. i trust the promise even though I don't trust Cameron.

Still the General Election is only seven months away, Cameron has until then to fulfil his promise. Either he will, or he wont. We will find out soon enough who is right and who is wrong.
I am happy to wait and see, I suggest you do also. If you give Cameron a fair chance to deliver Devo Max and he doesn't then you have justifiable leverage to call for a revote as the promise was conditional on a No vote. Scotland delivered that, so there is a well documented moral contract position now.

Frankly I think it would be catastrophic to cheat Scotland by reneging on the devolution.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Medium of Death wrote:
This is not a typical Glasgow Friday night. How fething dare you.

It's hordes of sectarian, unionist, royalist morons attacking people in the street.

What horde.
What attacking people.

I saw football chants and police presence.

Also being unionist and royalist doesnt make one a moron.

And yes Glasgow can get this bad. I have seen the bullet holes in the rival cafes.
And Paisley is allegedly stabbing capital of Europe.

Hes telling the truth it seems. He is NOT talking about the previously mentioned live Youtube video.

Spoiler:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762876/Union-flag-waving-demonstrators-make-Nazi-salute-Glasgow-victory-celebrations-Police-separate-rival-groups-tension-increases.html

Hell, when even the Daily Mail admits theres a problem, there is a problem.

However, this is the minority thuggish fringe of the Victors indulging in triumphalism. I'm sure we'd have seen similar scenes from the minority thuggish fringe of the Yes side too if they'd won.

**Orlanth**

Medium of Death wrote:
I live there.

You only need to look on social media to see what's happening. Stop pontificating on something you actually don't know about for once.

Edited by RiTides

Oh yes social media is the place for accurate news.

The Geoerge Street protestors were on live TV, they are not there now. I did see one or two isolated people with Union flags on live Tv and they were separate dispersed and causing no trouble.

As for the ugly proptest earlier. It has been well docutmented upon by credable journalists who were in George Square, so I dfont need your hysterical version.

On the balance its not patronising, just reasonably well informed.

Here is another press link for you:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/19/violence-glasgow-scotland-loyalists-attack-independence-supporters

As reported in the Guardian the violence last night was from a pub crowd. This is standard sectarian BS seen on many a pub night. Today is Yes vs No, next time it will be back to Rangers vs Celtic.
As you claim to come from Glasgow you must know this, you must have seen this. It's a minority of the usual Ned scum and police are well used to handling them.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a6992cc4-4026-11e4-936b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DlfjhZ7K

Press reports local witness claiming its usual tribalism, (bottom of article)

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/292808-loyalist-demonstrators-gather-in-glasgows-george-square-for-rally/

The STV report I saw earlier. Protestors are not Unionists but loyalist extremists, recognised by the songs they sang....
The STV reporter has obviously seen this type of stuff before, its normal Glasgow drunk sectarian mob. They have just got 100% more press coverage than usual because of what day it is, and their current excuse to rub opponents noses in it.

**Wyrmalla**

Just to point out, as has already been, that's not the usual mob of drunken louts which apparently roam Glasgow every night. Glasgow's not some wasteland where gangs of a dozen drunks wander about beating each other over the head, least not the centre of the city. The group seen in there's a direct response to current events. For that size of a crowd every other pub around the area would've had to have cleared out, and well its a bit early to strip a man away from his pint. So there may be this perception that this is what Glasgow looks like every night, but that's hardly the case (despite how much the Simpsons and Family Guy portray the place), and having visited and lived elsewhere I can say the place is hardly different from any other city of sufficient population elsewhere. Uh, so can we stop with the apparently entirely factual accounts that Glasgow is a sectarian filled hellhole where you can't walk down the street without being strung up by a drunken git for wearing the wrong colour of shoes?

**MrDwhitey**

See, my only visit through (not to, but through!) Glasgow was amazing.

Bus stops. On boards a bunch of young yobs and a social worker. Bus leaves. I giggle and fall asleep, nothing bad happens to me.

Of course, being slightly sane, I don't think Glasgow is entirely filled with young yobs and social workers.

**Steve steveson**

Medium of Death wrote:
This is not a typical Glasgow Friday night. How fething dare you.

It's hordes of sectarian, unionist, royalist morons attacking people in the street.

It may not happen every Friday night, but it's not unusual unfortunately.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/pictures-sectarianism-flares-smoke-bombs-3472041

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/06/old-firm-matches-glasgow-violence

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=9735

two-thirds (65%) of respondents felt that sectarian violence was very or quite common

Before you get angry you might want to consider that this is not a one off, or anything to do with independence but a deep sectarian division that exists within Glasgow.

The times I have been to Glasgow it has been a loverly city, but it does have a deep issue.