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Thank you, and as the crowd was rather small and police contained. This wasnt a No extremist mass movement to bully Yes voters; it was the usual sectarian pub crowd, with a nasty excuse to laugh this day.
Sectariansism doesn't rule Glasgow, but it IS a factor.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Today's wee event in George Square was intentionally the opposite to what happened last night. I went into the city centre to pick up some paint and other crap, but on the way for the train happened upon a crowd up people in the square. Instead of the nationalism charged events which have happened before the people there were saying that they cared more for social justice, though if through Scotland becoming independent that be achieved then they were all for it. So they were having a peaceful protest, much to the pity of the No campaigners who tried to start something repeatedly. On a number of occasions people walked over and started yelling, often centimetres in front of the speaker's faces. ...Unfortunately for them however the guys talking said things along the lines of "you may hate me, but I know I can't win that way". To which after a while the hecklers wandered off in a huff (the police rarely involving themselves). The same hecklers also seemed to bring up that there were Rainbow flags alongside the others, and seemed to take offence to that (though as the guys said, "if you're going to be violent then you'll have to go through me first", before asking who in the crowd was gay, Asian, Jewish, etc),
Yeah, it wound up being a nice wee charity event. There was a food bank collection which turned out pretty well (though I'll point out the 40+ police didn't stop the traffic to allow the 50+ of us who carried the bags to the awaiting vehicle, which I found rather rude), even if the No campaigners did start slagging it off for the sake of doing so. I found the phrase, "there's enough nukes to blow the world up seven times over, how about we just do it once and keep that cash for something better" quite a good one too (though not to say I don't understand why there's that many weapons). In any case, a deliberately peaceful protest in order to provide a counterpoint against what happened last night.
Though I will mention that I had friends warn against me going into the area, and heard plenty of woe stories from my fellow volunteers at the charity shop today. The guy who delivers stock in said that more than a few houses in his neighbourhood have had their windows smashed for having Yes flags (he sad he felt terrible having to take his down). The head staff member said that she's received no end of abuse from Scots and her English friends back home for being an Englishwoman who voted Yes. Oh, and the pair of community service workers who went on at length about the Union last week coincidently didn't show up this week (given the way they were talking I wouldn't put it past them to joined in with one of the No rallies). So there's a little cut of the lives of the people who volunteer there at least. For all the No campaign stood for, and not making any actual factual judgement here, it seems to be the perception that there's a fair few people of high intolerance amongst them (which the point which one of the handy users here lists off each of the extremist groups, not just nationalistic, but those against particular races, religions, and sexualities, attached to each side. ...As well they're the public face of these sides considering how the media handles these things. Uh, and not to go off on a tangent, the news crews cleared out pretty fast today after it turned up there wasn't going to be the running battle that they wanted).
Edit:
Oh, and also because it was funny I'll mention it. In the train station on the way home an Englishman didn't have a ticket to get through the barriers. He started an argument with the staff, and for some reason tried to force his way through physically. He eventually bought a ticket. On the train he sat there spouting off non stop xenophobic slurs and insulting me (I was sitting on the seats opposite in the a carriage). A little funny to see how quickly someone can jump on the dumbass train over such a small thing, and that xenophobia is for some reason the go to way of causing needless offence. I wanted to jump in and say, "well if you don't enjoy our hospitality then live elsewhere", but as the guys were saying today, there's no point in trying to educate someone who's showing so much insensitivity (leave it to a handy police officer who's nearby the next time he comes out with that nonsense. ...Though for all what happened last night I'm wondering if this city's police force is aware that that kind of talk's illegal in this country).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 20:33:42
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
It's sad to see that as the face of Glasgow, especially as the Central Station/Queen Street walk is the focus of tourists travelling though the city. From your description though it sounds as if they would find fault with anything to start something. It is galling that they have chosen to pin their allegiance to the No Campaign. However knowing my fellow Glaswegians, I really don't think that had they been Yes campaigners they would have been any less obnoxious.
I wrote earlier that we can bear a grudge, it is disheartening to see that that is still true, while the vote is now over the true repercussions to us as a community and country will come to the fore.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
The hecklers did start going on about how the guys talking were exploiting people by turning their food collection into a political issue. ...Uh, yeah sure. ...What? At one point the guy collecting gave them some food (I think the heckler said something like, "so is that food just for those who voted Yes?"), which the hecklers just threw back in his general direction before they wandered off. I was kind of waiting to see a video on youtube of the No campaigners slinging cans of beans, but well, let's be glad those idiots just gave up there.
As far as the area being well a public hotspot, yeah, the whole place was bustling with shoppers and tourists all day. The ever present group of Chinese tourists were there (heh, not being racist or anything, but I think some travel group has something set up or something) who spent there time taking pictures of us rather than the usual sites. Something different at least compared to all the other tourists I suppose. Ah, but yes, I would agree that those on the Yes side of things who act similarly to the idiots who've been causing trouble on the No side would've probably done the same thing. There's idiots abounds, and allying themselves with a political movement is an easy way for them to have an outlet. Its just a shame however that well, not all of the people on the No side starting trouble even had the right to vote. Plenty of people came over from N Ireland and England to support the No campaign, and well, as shown by the Orange Order last night, not all of them wanted to do so peacefully (my neighbour said there's was something like 200,000 guys who came over from N Ireland to put the finger down on Yes voters ...his family being some of them). Heh, perhaps a bit like Ukraine in that regard.
Meh, anyhow, 12 o'clock tomorrow there's a planned sit in at George's Square being held by the same people who organised the event today (Glasgow's Needy). Hopefully that'll go off well, and at least its an excuse to go into the city centre and take a wander about China Town (oi I'm a student, and I need my cheap noodles). Given the police presence today, and the response that those who wanted to start trouble received, I'm doubting much media worthy news will occur (Scotland once again's fallen off the map. What's that you say about an extension of rights? Tsk, there's a general election to care about, and if you're talking about devolution I assume you're referring to that for the English counties?).
Its just a shame however that well, not all of the people on the No side starting trouble even had the right to vote. Plenty of people came over from N Ireland and England to support the No campaign, and well, as shown by the Orange Order last night, not all of them wanted to do so peacefully (my neighbour said there's was something like 200,000 guys who came over from N Ireland to put the finger down on Yes voters ...
Now THAT is fethed up. I hope the Police carry out investigations into that. Its always sad to see democracy subverted like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However:
I'm doubting much media worthy news will occur (Scotland once again's fallen off the map. What's that you say about an extension of rights? Tsk, there's a general election to care about, and if you're talking about devolution I assume you're referring to that for the English counties?).
Whats wrong with that? Unlike Scotland, England has NO devolution, and its been a point of resentment for years. Surely an equal degree of devolution for all regions would be fair, yes?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 23:28:57
I wouldn't take that value entirely to heart, but I won't deny that there's those in Scotland right now from other countries who came here explicitly to support either side of the campaign. Of course I don't recall hearing about the guys who're here just to cause trouble at all on the media, but well can't paint the No campaign in a negative light can we? There won't be an investigation into that or any of the other crap that was pulled during either campaign as to Westminster the matter's settled. The BBC will just pass off the concerns of the Yes supporters with a politically correct public statement (if that, already its forgotten), and the political manoeuvring which Westminster was involved in will be remember as a well run campaign. So yeah, that petition to have an investigation into the outright lies which the BBC and other parts of the media were involved in (lies which were repeatedly called on by the Yes side, but they carried on saying anyway), yeah those don't matter. Everything which happened over the last two years is going to be just swept under the rug, and any complaints will be put down as "people who just can't accept they lost". If you think that the referendum was fair in the least then you're not aware of the facts. People are ruled by the media, and with almost all British outlets being bought out by the No campaign its a wonder the other side achieved 45% at all. It'd be ignorance to to not think that those who have had a stake in anti-independence movements elsewhere in the UK, or who are strongly patriotic (a nice way of saying racist gits) towards the Union wouldn't have come here to cause trouble for those on the other side of the argument (...an argument which given they didn't have Scottish citizenship was hardly there's to involve themselves in).
In regards to English devolution I was making that point as in the English will now put aside that of the other countries in the Union and care only about their own. I'm all for more powers to the English counties. Hell go and live in Preston for a while and see what they think of the way power's spread in their country. I was inferring that already the media's moved on. As ever with the majority of their viewership living in England, and a large portion of that in London, issues outside of that area just don't seem to matter (at least in the view of the people reporting it all). So Scotland's had its time when it had some attention, but its time for it to shut up and roll over again (a sentiment which I've heard already from a couple of people, including UKIP).
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
While I don't doubt that there were people over from NI I doubt that there were 200K of them.
Just to recap a much earlier comment, England cant vote to get rid of Scotland from the Union, they can only vote to leave it themselves. So we would get to keep the pound not them!
Shadow I completely agree with you. For a long time the English have been hoodwinked (I cant think of a better word) over their ability to govern themselves. I don't really understand why the sense of Scottish, Welsh and Irish has continued to exist and flourish, while Englishness has faded. Devolution for all should exist.
Cheers
Andrew
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyrmalla wrote: In regards to English devolution I was making that point as in the English will now put aside that of the other countries in the Union and care only about their own. I'm all for more powers to the English counties. Hell go and live in Preston for a while and see what they think of the way power's spread in their country. I was inferring that already the media's moved on. As ever with the majority of their viewership living in England, and a large portion of that in London, issues outside of that area just don't seem to matter (at least in the view of the people reporting it all). So Scotland's had its time when it had some attention, but its time for it to shut up and roll over again (a sentiment which I've heard already from a couple of people, including UKIP).
Ah but yesterdays news is for yesterday, and being controversial sells covers, (Just ask Frankie Boyle). Its only been two days, let the dust settle a bit, restock and then start again. While you may not believe this, I voted SNP to get into Edinburgh on the strength of the promise of the bleeding referendum in the first place only to be told years later that I wasn't allowed to vote.
Cheers
Andrew
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 23:59:11
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Wyrmalla wrote: ... ... ... (Scotland once again's fallen off the map. What's that you say about an extension of rights? Tsk, there's a general election to care about, and if you're talking about devolution I assume you're referring to that for the English counties?).
Wyrmalla wrote: ... ... ... (Scotland once again's fallen off the map. What's that you say about an extension of rights? Tsk, there's a general election to care about, and if you're talking about devolution I assume you're referring to that for the English counties?).
Some of the Scottish Referendum stories from the BBC website in the past day.
To be fair English devolution is the story at the moment because it is strongly contested and controversial. Scottish devolution is not a story because there is no contest, it will just happen in November. Labour however are wriggling to try and get out of English devolution because its highly damaging to them, good for England, logical and they walked right into it.
This is not to imply Scotland is 'forgotten', Scottish devolution is a current issue, but based on one that is currently sorted.
It is unfair, its base on factors from the 70's but its here to stay for the meantime. UK devolution will happen without altering th formula, however the fromula may become obsolete later if the local economies are federalised. But we are talking ifs here.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Wyrmalla wrote: Today's wee event in George Square was intentionally the opposite to what happened last night........ <snip>
Wyrmalla wrote: The hecklers did start going on about how the guys talking were exploiting people by turning their food collection into a political issue. ...<snip>
Wyrmalla wrote: I wouldn't take that value entirely to heart, but I won't deny that there's those in Scotland right now from other countries who came here explicitly to support either side of the campaign. <snip>
Now what we see is an inevitable aftermath of a referendum charged with nationalism.
The human animal is tribal and tribalism can turn man on man very quickly and overcomes logic. There are plenty of good examples of this where an accepted societal subset becomes a hated one overnight. Former Yugoslavia is full of those stories, best example would be the escalation of anti-Semitism once triggered. Before Hitler/Stalin and similar scum made it OK there might be one or two Jew haters, after the political trigger you get whole communities. Poland, which didn't have large scale anti Semitism or a Nazi or Soviet party of their own handed over their Jews to the Germans, they didn't need the SS to come get them.
Sick people know how to shoe in with these sick emotions, all the Great Dictators knew how to do this because its negative and powerful and people get caught up in the hype.
Nobody is stirring up large scale hatred in Scotland, and I am NOT comparing Salmond to Stalin or Hitler, but the underlying monkey tribalism is still there because you cant remove it from man. The referendum became tribal through nationalism so after ther result the Yes monkey got covered in poo, so the No monkey is waving his stick.
Do not be under any illusion that if there had been a Yes victory there would be any difference. You would have seen the same emboldenment for racism, but it would come from Scottish nationalists who would be shouting in the faces of No supporters on the street who voted No because they believe in a better Scotland and not for any sectarian reason. Note that you get a different type of person going onto the street at the victim side, Yes vote fanatics are at home strewing or feeling gutted, the Yes campers on the streets are the Yes community not Yes fanastics. Again this would have been mirror imaged.
This was sadly inevitable, Salmond chose 2014 for the election for Bannockburn anniversary and maximum Braveheart factor, a lot of people have felt intimidated during the referendum process and on the balance that has been predominently No supporters before Thursday. In fact this made the difference as most No vote was static but was also silent because they didnt want to trigger loons. But they rturned up en masse for the ballot itself and then returned home.
What you are seeing is the ebb tide of a nationalist wave. Many No supporters felt intimidated, and now the boot feels lifted from their shoulders, the worst of them are out for payback. As you can see there were plenty of No voters around. 47% in Glasgow, yet the heckling scum are a tiny minority. Were this a real scale No payback then Glasgow would be in massive civil unright right now.
Thankfully because of the lack of enablement only the hardcore fringe are out bullying Yes supporters, and as previously indicated most of those are doing so becvause they are already polarised by Sectarianism. That also explains why this is happening in Glasgow, but not on any notable scale in Edinburgh or Aberdeen. You will get the odd one or two loons everywhere.
This has to run its course, as it cant actually be stopped except by patience and individual police action. The time to stop a post election surge by extremist supporters of whichever faction won would have been in 2012 when it could have been decided not to use nationalism as the manner of the campaign. Had Scottish independence been held solely on economic terms and rational debate this would not have happened. In dact in hindsight had the SNP decided upon a currency, had not lied about oil and not lied about Europe and said. We will be iScotland, with this as our curncy after a few years of Panamaisation and in about five further years will get into Europe. It will be a long hard slog but we will no longer have Westminster on our backs he may have won.
Instead he tried endless fear smears, threats and anti English sentiment. Yhe SNP claimed the Saltire as its own (you can vote No and be no less Scottish), made it Scotland vs No by their own rhetoric and encouraged Yes loons to turn up with Yes banners and Braveheart faces.
If you see a No extremist monkey flinging poo you can justly blame Alex Salmond, because he made it inevitable that the <whichever side won> monkeys would fling their poo at <whichever side lost monkeys> because he turned into a campaign on nationalist issues. He even allowed his own party to join in with reprisal threats.
There was hate and fear in the campaign, a lot of Unionists were preparing to have to leave. In some cases the threats actually came from senior party leaders
This story is ther tip of the iceberg. A number of people were warned by Salmonds own henchmen not to return to Scotland as they werre not wanted. I know of one such case personally, a hereditary peer, business leader and Unionist. He was warned that he was no longer welcome in Scotland. However in this Salmond has seemed to forget something, the man was a Scottish noble and you cant tell a Sciotsman he cant live in Scotland (well not until you have the Republic of Salmond). So this laird decided that he would go to estate and run his businesses from there. He is still there, he wasn't budging until after the referendum is over.
There was an article on this in January, about 20 very prominent Scots, mostly peers were told they were no longer welcome in Scotland. It was in the press but I couldn't find the article now. It went in and out of the press as Salmond was wise enough not to send his henchmen to make threats in writing, just face to face warnings in London events and clubs. Still I know this to be true because I know of one of the victims of this harassment. You can choose to believe or disbelieve this as you will, becausev I wiont be mentioning any names. Still the laird in question sent Salmond a "condolence" email from his estate in Scotalnd, where Salmond had demanded him not to be.
I think this marks the difference. Post either vote you will get nationaism raising its ugly head, had Salmond won you would have had state sanctioned bigotry as well.
If ugly nationalism is something to be avoided then in my opinion on Thursday Scotland dodged a bullet.
This ugliness will now have a chance to pass. My sincere apologies form all fair minded Unionist for those who are victimised by No supporting extremists. Any incidents are a matter for the police though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 12:14:43
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
To be honest it's all a total bloody mess, based on some, valid, but idealistic views.
This island is called The United Kingdom and devolution at the level that Scotland wants is a very dangerous political step to make. Scotland will get the powers it wants for more self rule and control, but it will potentially cripple the rest of the country at the political level. We could see in the future a Labour / Lib Dem government in name only, they may of one the election but due to this new "Scottish MP's vote on Scottish issues, "English MP's vote on English issues, etc they don't have a majority. I would say that if devolution happens it has to happen across the whole of this Isle, not just at "country" level. Perhaps something similar to the US, that it's done at county level, not what was offered in the referendum.
I would also say that it's time for a fundamental re-evaluation of this whole idea of "national identity" within The United Kingdom. The Scots & The Welsh use the fact that they have a "native" language as a key point when it comes to arguing for their national identity, but here's the thing. If you'd taken someone from London, say from 1934 and dropped them in to the middle of Dorset or Yorkshire I can guarantee you that they would of thought they were in a different country due to strong regional dialects. As to the whole issue of Westminster being out of touch with what happens in Scotland... I've got news for you. I live in Bournemouth and think the same thing. My MP is a Lib Dem and all the others around here are Tories and when I here their self centred whining about coming out of the EU or that English MP's should vote on English matters it makes me shudder.
Going back to idealistic views, mine is this. I say that the whole of The United Kingdom should be genetically screened and if it turns out that that the people of Scotland and Wales are fundamentally different to the rest of The United Kingdom, then the whole idea of a separate country can be looked at again.
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.
Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor
I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design
Besides that sounds too much like 'Race Science' it wasn't acceptable in the 1930's, it should not be acceptable now.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
It seems stupid for the NO or the YES people to try to heckle or each other, or vandalize property, especialy given it really can't be considered a landslide vote.
Relapse wrote: It seems stupid for the NO or the YES people to try to heckle or each other, or vandalize property, especialy given it really can't be considered a landslide vote.
Relapse wrote: It seems stupid for the NO or the YES people to try to heckle or each other, or vandalize property, especialy given it really can't be considered a landslide vote.
Relapse wrote: It seems stupid for the NO or the YES people to try to heckle or each other, or vandalize property, especialy given it really can't be considered a landslide vote.
*looks at American politics*
Sounds about right!
God our political parties are nuts...
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Well it looks like for the moment the Yes campaign side of things here in Glasgow have been taken over by a charity. Glasgow's Needy is playing on feeling left over from the referendum to get people together to protest and collect for the city's food banks. Its nice to see that they've done pretty well for themselves (its just two guys running the thing) and that the Yes voters can have something to stand behind which doesn't have aggressive means. Meanwhile membership for the Greens, SNP and SSP parties has sky rocketed, though I can't speak for Labour (who may not be doing too well in the next election given that the party as a whole joined the No campaign, yet half the country here was on the opposite side. Given the consensus that England's becoming more Conservative it may be a good idea for them to somehow claw back some votes in the other Union countries).
So with that I'm wondering how the next general election's going to turn out? A conservative swing no doubt, but in opposition to that where would the left go? The Lib Dems haven't made many friends, nor have recent events in Scotland put Labour in good standing either. Like I said, the Greens, SNP, and SSP here will probably make a killing, though whether those on the No side vote for any of them is down to Westminster's actions in the time running up to the election. In any case, at the moment here I'm seeing an upswing in the mood of those who voted Yes following their loss last week (though as its been put, yes 10% is a wide margin, but almost half the country voted Yes. That and that particular side had a large youth following, so the matter presumably won't be dropped soon by grass roots groups).
I hope Labour get smashed in the General Elections, even if that will bring a Conservative government. If Cameron is still leader I actually trust him more than Ed to deliver those powers. It's not a lot of trust though. It's not really him, more the idea of whether he'll be able to wrangle those backbenchers back in line. I don't even think Ed would try.
Ed's dead to Scotland!
Labour needs to be rebuilt from the ground up as a party, or perhaps cast aside in favour of new organisations.
Medium of Death wrote: I hope Labour get smashed in the General Elections, even if that will bring a Conservative government. If Cameron is still leader I actually trust him more than Ed to deliver those powers. It's not a lot of trust though. It's not really him, more the idea of whether he'll be able to wrangle those backbenchers back in line. I don't even think Ed would try.
Ed's dead to Scotland!
Labour needs to be rebuilt from the ground up as a party, or perhaps cast aside in favour of new organisations.
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
Wyrmalla wrote: Well it looks like for the moment the Yes campaign side of things here in Glasgow have been taken over by a charity. Glasgow's Needy is playing on feeling left over from the referendum to get people together to protest and collect for the city's food banks. Its nice to see that they've done pretty well for themselves (its just two guys running the thing) and that the Yes voters can have something to stand behind which doesn't have aggressive means. Meanwhile membership for the Greens, SNP and SSP parties has sky rocketed, though I can't speak for Labour (who may not be doing too well in the next election given that the party as a whole joined the No campaign, yet half the country here was on the opposite side. Given the consensus that England's becoming more Conservative it may be a good idea for them to somehow claw back some votes in the other Union countries).
So with that I'm wondering how the next general election's going to turn out? A conservative swing no doubt, but in opposition to that where would the left go? The Lib Dems haven't made many friends, nor have recent events in Scotland put Labour in good standing either. Like I said, the Greens, SNP, and SSP here will probably make a killing, though whether those on the No side vote for any of them is down to Westminster's actions in the time running up to the election. In any case, at the moment here I'm seeing an upswing in the mood of those who voted Yes following their loss last week (though as its been put, yes 10% is a wide margin, but almost half the country voted Yes. That and that particular side had a large youth following, so the matter presumably won't be dropped soon by grass roots groups).
For one thing I think the turnout for the next election will be abysmal. As you say, almost half the country voted for something that didn't pass, so they are going to be feeling disenfranchised and to top that a large percentage are young first time voters. On that front did they lower the voting age for the election as well as the referendum? If they didn't then you're looking at an even lower turnout. As to the result? I wouldn't even like to try a guess.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
Wyrmalla wrote: Well it looks like for the moment the Yes campaign side of things here in Glasgow have been taken over by a charity. Glasgow's Needy is playing on feeling left over from the referendum to get people together to protest and collect for the city's food banks. Its nice to see that they've done pretty well for themselves (its just two guys running the thing) and that the Yes voters can have something to stand behind which doesn't have aggressive means. Meanwhile membership for the Greens, SNP and SSP parties has sky rocketed, though I can't speak for Labour (who may not be doing too well in the next election given that the party as a whole joined the No campaign, yet half the country here was on the opposite side. Given the consensus that England's becoming more Conservative it may be a good idea for them to somehow claw back some votes in the other Union countries).
So with that I'm wondering how the next general election's going to turn out? A conservative swing no doubt, but in opposition to that where would the left go? The Lib Dems haven't made many friends, nor have recent events in Scotland put Labour in good standing either. Like I said, the Greens, SNP, and SSP here will probably make a killing, though whether those on the No side vote for any of them is down to Westminster's actions in the time running up to the election. In any case, at the moment here I'm seeing an upswing in the mood of those who voted Yes following their loss last week (though as its been put, yes 10% is a wide margin, but almost half the country voted Yes. That and that particular side had a large youth following, so the matter presumably won't be dropped soon by grass roots groups).
For one thing I think the turnout for the next election will be abysmal. As you say, almost half the country voted for something that didn't pass, so they are going to be feeling disenfranchised and to top that a large percentage are young first time voters. On that front did they lower the voting age for the election as well as the referendum? If they didn't then you're looking at an even lower turnout. As to the result? I wouldn't even like to try a guess.
I do now laugh that Salmond has come out and said, we didn't win, but if we get an SNP majority we can become an independent nation....
How's that one working Alex? As you cant just tell Westminster your pissing off to form your own country.
55% of Scots didn't agree with your idea, so kindly do one and leave quietly.
If the vote had been run like a normal constituency election the results would have been even more landslide like with 28\4 split No/Yes.
I also am getting really pissed off at this insinuation that I only voted no because of the promises Westminster made Re: more powers.
No no, I voted No because the economic argument was about as solid as a wet tissue bag, and a lot of people knew this too.
It was Salmond and the SNP's vanity project from the start and I hope they get a drubbing at the next Scottish general election to show the nations displeasure.
Also this screaming that Westminster 'lied' and didn't give what they promised. Its been 4 days, obviously the parties are going to wrangle for the best deal, and Labour was at the top of this pile as Scotland is very important to them, but Cameron would be a moron to not give Scotland the extra powers promised, as it would be a disaster and the English now have a taste of finally getting an answer to the 'west lothian' question, so of course its going to be shouted about in the halls of parliament now, moan in February if you get nothing from Westminster, not 4 days after the vote.
The chip on the shoulder of the Yes camp and this '45' nonsense really belittles all they said about agreeing with the result, it seems that was only true in the event of a Yes vote.
Rick_1138 wrote: I do now laugh that Salmond has come out and said, we didn't win, but if we get an SNP majority we can become an independent nation.....
This should not surprise me, but it does. It takes some nerve to promise seperation even after a plebiscite refuses the idea.
I also am getting really pissed off at this insinuation that I only voted no because of the promises Westminster made Re: more powers.
It implies Salmond thinks the No voters are as gullible and easily led as the Yes voters. Some probably are, but the quiet no vote that carried the referendum which was 75% of all No voters were No from the start.
Also this screaming that Westminster 'lied' and didn't give what they promised. Its been 4 days, obviously the parties are going to wrangle for the best deal, .
What is calling about this is that it takes three years to mount a referendum campaign to ask one question (a general election is set up over the period of one calender month), yet a devolution process is overrunning if not completed in four days.
What type of idiot does he take you for?
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Medium of Death wrote: I hope Labour get smashed in the General Elections, even if that will bring a Conservative government. If Cameron is still leader I actually trust him more than Ed to deliver those powers. It's not a lot of trust though. It's not really him, more the idea of whether he'll be able to wrangle those backbenchers back in line. I don't even think Ed would try.
Ed's dead to Scotland!
It's funny really. On a personal level, I'm anti-Tory (except in defence policy/fiscal restraint), and would love to be able to vote Lib Dem/Labour. But Labour literally cannot muster a single heavyweight, reliable, known politician to the field anymore. Let's see....
Miliband is a bumbling nobody with nothing important or original to say. Ed Balls and Harriet Harman are still completely tarred by their days of association with the last institution, and made several monumental screwups that demonstrate their complete incompetence. Chuka Umna barely knows what his brief is (as evidenced by his most recent interview where he couldn't even name Scottish members of his own party), and is as slimy a creature that ever walked the face of the earth. Diane Abbot takes reverse racism to new extremes.
Literally the only person Labour has left that I even regard as mildly competent would be Peter Mandelson, and he's so corrupt as to make that worthless. There is a real void and paucity of talent in the Labour party, and whilst I'm not especially pro-Tory, they can at least muster a fairly solid lineup of mediocre/competent statesmen.
Cameron? Nothing special, but competent. William Hague? Ex-Tory Leader who's matured over time into a solid politician. George Osborne? Slimy and Tory through and through, but effective and knows his brief quite well. Theresa May? Shaping up into a future potential Tory leader if she can avoid too many cockups. Michael Fallon? Never seen him before the other night in interview, but he seemed to have a good handle on his job and be reasonably competent. Phillip Hammond? A bit of a political bruiser. Boris Johnson? Far cleverer than people suspect, with a very efficient spin machine.
Tl;dr, The Conservatives have a wealth of a mediocre/unremarkably competent ministers to draw on, whilst Labour can't muster up a single one. There's such a dearth of originality, willingness to take risk, and lack of direction that I'd rather the Conservatives took Government over them any day, whether I like the Tories or not.
Labour needs to be rebuilt from the ground up as a party, or perhaps cast aside in favour of new organisations.
Indeed. Labour has become a shadow of what it once was. Thatcher killed their internal organs by turning the working class into homeowners, Blair hollowed out the shell to fit in his ego and vast aspirations to be a 'World Leader', and then Brown stifled any remaining healing until what little was left rotted away. Now all that's left is the husk. Dry, insubstantial, and purposeless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 22:45:09
Millibands speech today was lacklustre, and his promises for his ten year plan are suspiciously vague. Important stuff like devolution, Lord reform and 'constitutional changes were glossed over in as many lines. As Labour is likely to foul up all three (and should in my opinion leave well alone) the speech was disturbing.
Meanwhile the six major policies were talked about at length,b but with a mixed degree of detail. The NHS reforms were fairly comprehensively explained, the banking reforms were exceptionally vague. I can see Labour delivering on the former, they will never deliver on the latter as they are as crony infested as the Tories.
Its bad when you get a pre-election leaders speech, and you can see from the speech which proposals are very important, dangerous and are being understated, which will be achieved and which are soundbytes and empty promises the party has no intention of coming through on.
A most unprofesional show by a weak Prime Ministerial candidate. Still they might well win anyway because they promise less austerity.
And on austerity, Milliband hardly mentioned the economy at all, funny that.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: Millibands speech today was lacklustre, and his promises for his ten year plan are suspiciously vague. Important stuff like devolution, Lord reform and 'constitutional changes were glossed over in as many lines. As Labour is likely to foul up all three (and should in my opinion leave well alone) the speech was disturbing.
Meanwhile the six major policies were talked about at length,b but with a mixed degree of detail. The NHS reforms were fairly comprehensively explained, the banking reforms were exceptionally vague. I can see Labour delivering on the former, they will never deliver on the latter as they are as crony infested as the Tories.
Its bad when you get a pre-election leaders speech, and you can see from the speech which proposals are very important, dangerous and are being understated, which will be achieved and which are soundbytes and empty promises the party has no intention of coming through on.
A most unprofesional show by a weak Prime Ministerial candidate. Still they might well win anyway because they promise less austerity.
And on austerity, Milliband hardly mentioned the economy at all, funny that.
When did they promise less austerity? Last I recall, Ed Balls vowed not to touch the fiscal reforms instituted by the Tories. I don't believe him for a second, there's never been a single Labour Institution that's left with a balanced budget (something ideological no doubt), but he hasn't said that austerity will end to my knowledge, quite the opposite.
As far as I can tell, Miliband's proposals are:
-£8.00 minimum wage by 2020.
-A 2.5 billion injection into the NHS, to be subsidised by a crackdown on tax evasion, a new mansion tax, and more tobacco taxes.
-Lowering the minimum voting age to 16.
-Raising apprenticeships to the point where 50% of the youth do them.
They're also mildly nonsensical and meaningless for the most part. The minimum wage is going up to £6.50 in October, and Osborne has being saying since January he wanted it to hit £7.00. If it keeps going at its current rate, it'll actually be £8.00 be 2020, or something close to it. The Tories already ringfenced the NHS (so no cuts there to complain about), and his proposals for raising more cash are a mixture of lies (Labour hitting the rich? Pah), and easy hits (rich people and smokers! Yeah!) that will be ineffectual (the people Labour hires to write tax laws become tax evasion advisors two years later and rich people keep their money outside the country).
The apprenticeships is a desperate attempt to find a solution to growing University costs and youth unemployment issues, but the goal given is simplistic to the point of idiotic. It's like Blair's original goal of 50% to University. You can't just seize on a figure like that. It looks nice in the headlines, but starts falling apart once you consider the fine print. Apprenticeships in what? Where are the new apprenticeships going to allow people to work? Will these markets be globally competitive, or will they just end up unemployed again because the industry isn't here? etcetc
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/24 02:01:27
