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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:20:57
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
In ur base, killin ur d00dz
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The thing is, I have read the thread and I have actually submitted specific quotes that support my statements but that's fine to ignore. Instead of wasting people's time with mature responses like that, there is an option to ignore a member's posts. I suggest using that rather than getting completely off topic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:31:50
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Lieutenant General
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You have been shown, multiple times. One relic means just that. One. You're playing semantics trying to make more than one mean one.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:33:29
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
In ur base, killin ur d00dz
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Yes, one means on but that only applies to replacing a weapon with a Relic. That argument hasn't done anything to explain the Relics that don't require a trade.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:37:06
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Lieutenant General
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No, it doesn't. One means one and only one. You're trying to read it as follows:
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace a weapon with one of the following:
That would allow you to exchange more than what the rules allow, and that is "one weapon".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 13:37:25
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:37:58
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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All that does is remove the requirement to swap a weapon. Exaplin where it means you can now have more than one relic.
The list allows you to have ONE relic in exchange for ONE weapon. If you exchange TWO weapons for TWO relics, or one weapon (plus no weapon) for TWO relics, you have NOT complied with this perrmission
You have permission to swap one weapon for one relic. You need to find a rule giving you permission to swap two weapons for two relics, or you are cheating by doing so.
Yes, it is cheating, as the rule states one relic. Not "for every weapon you swap you can take one relic", which is what you need to show.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 13:44:38
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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The Hive Mind
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Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:Yes, one means on but that only applies to replacing a weapon with a Relic. That argument hasn't done anything to explain the Relics that don't require a trade.
Thanks for moving the goalposts.
Relics that don't require swapping weapons just remove the "one weapon" part of the rule, not the "one item".
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 14:21:54
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The ork codex isn't just similar, it uses literally the exact same wording with the only difference being that an ork doesn't have to swap a weapon for a relic weapon. Even in the unit entry, it says may take items from the following lists, the exact same sentence as used in the space wolf HQ entry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 14:31:49
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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rigeld2 wrote:
Relics that don't require swapping weapons just remove the "one weapon" part of the rule, not the "one item".
I am not at all convinced about that. The disclaimer really cannot remove just half of the sentence.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 14:38:44
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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I feel bad for the people who have to deal with all of you in real life while playing 40k that are trying to stack these relics on your models...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 14:55:30
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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The Hive Mind
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Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Relics that don't require swapping weapons just remove the "one weapon" part of the rule, not the "one item".
I am not at all convinced about that. The disclaimer really cannot remove just half of the sentence.
Why not? It only contradicts half the rule, so we ignore all of it? Really?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:03:58
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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JusticarGames wrote:I feel bad for the people who have to deal with all of you in real life while playing 40k that are trying to stack these relics on your models...
This is not helpful and is actually an underhanded attack on the characters of fellow forum members, which I believe is most likely against the rules here.
At the end of the day, the actual wording tells us that we can take ITEMS from the Relics List. The wording further tells us that taking AN ITEM from the Relics List involves replacing ONE WEAPON with ONE RELIC. If I take two ITEMS from the Relics List, and each time I replace ONE WEAPON with ONE RELIC, I have obeyed the permission to take ITEMS and I've obeyed the restriction to replace ONE WEAPON with ONE RELIC when I take AN ITEM from the list.
I see NOTHING that prevents me from selecting multiple times from the list so long as I obey the one weapon/one relic requirement each time. The wording tells me I can take ITEMS, and that when I take an ITEM I have to replace. Nowehere does it tells me I can only take from the list once per model. I believe the other side of the argument is trying to apply the ONE WEAPON per RELIC logic to the may select ITEMS from the list sentence. These are seperate sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:13:03
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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rigeld2 wrote:
Why not? It only contradicts half the rule, so we ignore all of it? Really?
Really. (Maybe...)
The rule is 'may replace one weapon with one of the following.' Without 'replace one weapon' part you have a broken half sentence, and you literally have to make up a rule by replacing 'may replace one weapon' with 'may take one weapon'. That seems a bit far fetched extrapolation to me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:18:05
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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The Hive Mind
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Crimson wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Why not? It only contradicts half the rule, so we ignore all of it? Really?
Really. (Maybe...)
The rule is 'may replace one weapon with one of the following.' Without 'replace one weapon' part you have a broken half sentence, and you literally have to make up a rule by replacing 'may replace one weapon' with 'may take one weapon'. That seems a bit far fetched extrapolation to me.
No, it changes from "May replace one weapon with one of the following:" to "May take one of the following:". Only change is from "with" to "take" because you've removed the requirement to replace with - so you can just take it.
It still says "one" not "Meh, do whatever you want - I don't care."
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:30:40
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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I'm not sure why this irks me so much and I know feeding internet trolls is a complete and total waste of time, but here goes.
This is a forum whose sole purpose seems to be to argue minor and generally ambiguous points of rule. This is not a place to have a fun game. If I'm in a store and a genuine argument comes up, my community ALWAYS rolls a die and moves on with the game. I've actually stated several times that in a gaming scenario I would allow this issue to go in either direction.
You need to learn the difference between someone who enjoys a lively debate with someone playing an actual game and understand that the same person can have very different behaviors in those two contexts.
I could just as easily say "OMG, I feel sorry for people who have to deal with all of you in the real world who won't let people equip their models as allowed in the rules.", but I don't because it's not very friendly and is also most likely inaccurate. I'm hoping most of the people on this forum are a little more tolerant in a gaming situation than they would be on an anonymous gaming forum where they aren't worried about alienating a group or coming off as an unrelenting rules stickler.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 17:35:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:33:38
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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a model may replace one weapon with one relic.
he replaces 2 weapons with 2 relics.
this is the same as:
one space marine may replace his bolter with a flamer
2 marines replace their bolters with flamers.
if someone has a bowl of sweets with a sign saying "please take only one", you're not obeying the sign by taking them all one at a time. you still took more than one.
with regard to the "does not replace the models weapons" argument, i turn it back on you:
Nowhere does it say that a model can take a relic without swapping it for a weapon. it only says a model can swap a weapon for a relic. if a relic does not require a weapon to be swapped for it, then no-one can take it. unless it is through the "may replace ONE weapon with ONE of the following" statement, in which case we're back to only ONE relic per model.
we're done here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:48:14
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure why this irks me so much and I know feeding internet trolls is a complete and total waste of time, but here goes.
So you think I'm the troll when you're the one that keeps coming back on here trying to validate your twisted interpretation of this rule?
Seems legit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 15:51:35
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Lieutenant General
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some bloke wrote:a with regard to the "does not replace the models weapons" argument, i turn it back on you:
Nowhere does it say that a model can take a relic without swapping it for a weapon.
Note that the Helm of Durfast, The Armour of Russ and The Wulfen Stone are all marked with a superscript "6" in their listings. Note what that means:
6 Does not replace one of the character’s weapons.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:13:34
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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The Hive Mind
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JusticarGames wrote: Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure why this irks me so much and I know feeding internet trolls is a complete and total waste of time, but here goes.
So you think I'm the troll when you're the one that keeps coming back on here trying to validate your twisted interpretation of this rule?
Seems legit. 
He's contributing to the thread. You're actively insulting and mocking people.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:21:14
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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some bloke wrote:
if someone has a bowl of sweets with a sign saying "please take only one", you're not obeying the sign by taking them all one at a time. you still took more than one.
Hmmm, but what if that bowl of sweets said to trade one dollar for one sweet? Could you take one, turn in a dollar. And then do it again for a second sweet?
Anyways, don't play puppies so don't really care and if my opponent wants to pile it onto one character, makes it easier to get rid of everything by just killing one model. I can see it going either way based on the rules quotes posted (as I have yet to acquire my SW codex - yes, I'm still one of those lunatics that buys all of them).
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:36:43
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Lieutenant General
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don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, but what if that bowl of sweets said to trade one dollar for one sweet? Could you take one, turn in a dollar. And then do it again for a second sweet?
The problem with your example is you're not looking at it by way of a permissive rules set.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:36:51
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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rigeld2 wrote: JusticarGames wrote: Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure why this irks me so much and I know feeding internet trolls is a complete and total waste of time, but here goes.
So you think I'm the troll when you're the one that keeps coming back on here trying to validate your twisted interpretation of this rule?
Seems legit. 
He's contributing to the thread. You're actively insulting and mocking people.
Clearly our opinions of "contributing" are way different.
All I've done here is shared my opinions on how terrible it must be to play against or be around individuals who misinterpret things so badly.
It's honestly rather comical at this point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:39:12
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Lieutenant General
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Read the Tenets of YMDC stickied at the top of the forum and you'll see why you're not contributing to the discussion.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:55:58
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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Ghaz wrote:Read the Tenets of YMDC stickied at the top of the forum and you'll see why you're not contributing to the discussion.
Got it, have fun fellas.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 17:57:06
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Dakka Veteran
Miles City, MT
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Kriswall wrote:pm713 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:pm713 wrote:ONE SPACE MARINE CAN replace his boltgun with one of the following:
The part in capitals is why only 1 Blood Angel gets the flamer.
If it said "A space marine can replace his boltgun with one of the following" or anything that implies they can all take flamers then they could all take the flamers.
A model can replace one weapon with one relic.
One space marine can replace his bolter with...
Why is "one" an absolute limit in the latter case, but not the former? You haven't answered that. Please do so, as that's literally your argument.
I've actually tried answering that several times but at this point I'm just going to stop trying.
The one is referring to different things. In the Blood Angels case it is referring to one MODEL exchanging his boltgun for a flamer. In the Space Wolf case it is referring to one WEAPON being exchanged for a Relic... and we're told that we can take ITEMS from the lists. Our side of the argument is that since you are allowed to take ITEMS from the list and you do so by exchanging ONE weapon per Relic, you can take as many ITEMS as you have weapons to exchange.
I agree with you. I would also like to point out that nowhere does it say that a model may only take ONE relic. I can't remember what codex/book says it (think it is a Chaos Space Marines book), but the book uses an example where the HQ has two relics. That seems to support the more than one relic theory. Not that I personally would suggest multiple relics one one model. You are just asking to draw hate to that model doing that. But so long as you can make the exchanges I don't see anything rules wise preventing you from doing so.
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Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:03:20
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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That isn't how a permissive system works. You have permission to swap one for one. Find permission to swap more than one. Page and para
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:05:42
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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some bloke wrote:
if someone has a bowl of sweets with a sign saying "please take only one", you're not obeying the sign by taking them all one at a time. you still took more than one.
If someone had a series of bowls with a sign that read "You may take sweets from the following bowls" and then another sign on the red bowl that read "You may take take one sweet by placing one dollar in the bowl", how many sweets are you allowed to take from the red bowl? I would argue that so long as you're paying your dollar, you can keep taking sweets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:08:56
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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One, otherwise you have taken two, and the restriction on the howl allows you to take jussi one
Essentially your fabrication of "one, then another one" ips just that. Made it, with zero rules support.
otherwise I'm taking all flamer tactical squads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:10:48
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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So let's review how you select wargear for a model.
"- May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of the Fang lists."
You have permission to select items from the above lists. So from there we need restrictions or further instructions in order to limit the number of items we can take for a given model.
"Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:"
This gives further instructions on how to select items from the Relic of the Fang list. It says a model can replace 1 weapon with 1 relic. This is a restriction placed upon a model selecting wargear from this list. If you replace 2 weapons with 2 relics then you've broken the restriction no matter when or how you do it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 18:11:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:15:04
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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The permission on the bowl actually tells me that I can take a sweet by exchanging a dollar. I read this as "If you want a sweet, you must give the bowl a dollar". The larger permission tells me I can take sweets. I'm reading this as "you can take multiple sweets (it does say sweets and not sweet), so long as you are fulfilling the requirement for each sweet you take".
Nowhere does it say I can ONLY take one sweet from the red bowl. I'm just told that I can take one sweet by exchanging a one dollar. If I take multiple sweets, then I would be required to exchange one sweet for one dollar multiple times.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/08/14 18:20:20
Subject: New Space Wolves Codex - how many relics can a HQ take?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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"You may take 1 sweet for 1 dollar"
"I took 2 sweets for 2 dollars"
I did not follow instructions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the end of the day, you have an army list with a set of wargear. If there are 2 relics on your sheet for a single model that you swapped for the 2 weapons, and I look at the section on selecting relics and I see "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:" then I'm going to wonder how you managed to replace 2 weapons with 2 relics.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/14 18:24:43
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