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Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

I try to paint. Its just hard to do so when there is so much going in my life that I can't take the time to do so.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

kb305 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

Some could argue they find painting relaxing.

My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

Some could argue they find painting relaxing.

I dont think it is. if it was actually relaxing more people would be doing it instead of paying other people for painted models.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

Some could argue they find painting relaxing.

^^ This.

 Las wrote:
My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

To be fair, what other games have 1. Relatively large model number requirements and 2. Are played by a population that either in school or working?

Most other sci-fi or fantasy games are skirmish or require less models to paint overall. Or they're Historicals and played by a generally older population. Guy's like me (early 20s) are something of a rarity outside of FoW. Oftentimes I'm the only twenty something at our historical community games.

Then again, I also blamed the near stupid amount of details on some miniatures GW produces, which discourages the average painter.

This might sound insane, but...maybe...different people enjoy different parts of the hobby. And maybe, you don't need to try to prove another person's opinion "wrong".

Just a wild guess.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Las wrote:
My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

To be fair, what other games have 1. Relatively large model number requirements and 2. Are played by a population that either in school or working?

Most other sci-fi or fantasy games are skirmish or require less models to paint overall. Or they're Historicals and played by a generally older population. Guy's like me (early 20s) are something of a rarity outside of FoW. Oftentimes I'm the only twenty something at our historical community games.

Then again, I also blamed the near stupid amount of details on some miniatures GW produces, which discourages the average painter.

If you're into historicals then I don't think I have to point out the huge model counts of napoleonics and ancients (both of which are often played at 28mm). However I think you're right about the age difference. Still I'd argue that older players tend to have even less free time with family and long term career obligations as indeed people have mentioned ITT. I still think it's something in the WH/WM water.

 Las wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Las wrote:
My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

To be fair, what other games have 1. Relatively large model number requirements and 2. Are played by a population that either in school or working?

Most other sci-fi or fantasy games are skirmish or require less models to paint overall. Or they're Historicals and played by a generally older population. Guy's like me (early 20s) are something of a rarity outside of FoW. Oftentimes I'm the only twenty something at our historical community games.

Then again, I also blamed the near stupid amount of details on some miniatures GW produces, which discourages the average painter.

If you're into historicals then I don't think I have to point out the huge model counts of napoleonics and ancients (both of which are often played at 28mm). However I think you're right about the age difference. Still I'd argue that older players tend to have even less free time with family and long term career obligations as indeed people have mentioned ITT. I still think it's something in the WH/WM water.

What 28mm mass battle historicals are you taking about.

 Sigvatr wrote:
This might sound insane, but...maybe...different people enjoy different parts of the hobby. And maybe, you don't need to try to prove another person's opinion "wrong".

Just a wild guess.

^ This, reminds me of the time this thread came up or something similar a while back. Wont say names but he told me basically that "since you are in the army you should have the discipline and fortitude to paint your models" I nearly died laughing! Sorry, I have a very busy schedule with work, school, girlfriend and friends on top of military duites and comparing painting to the military is utterly ridiculous. Just because you don't like it does not mean you have the right to judge and refuse to play other peoples armies on the basis that they are not painted. Personally I pay people to paint my armies since I am already paying a lot to buy it might as well pay to have it look decent, and I am in the Hobby more so for fluff then anything else. Don't get me wrong I understand that painted armies look great fighting each other, however some of you need to realize that some people other priorites take precedence.

Noir wrote:

 Las wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Las wrote:
My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

To be fair, what other games have 1. Relatively large model number requirements and 2. Are played by a population that either in school or working?

Most other sci-fi or fantasy games are skirmish or require less models to paint overall. Or they're Historicals and played by a generally older population. Guy's like me (early 20s) are something of a rarity outside of FoW. Oftentimes I'm the only twenty something at our historical community games.

Then again, I also blamed the near stupid amount of details on some miniatures GW produces, which discourages the average painter.

If you're into historicals then I don't think I have to point out the huge model counts of napoleonics and ancients (both of which are often played at 28mm). However I think you're right about the age difference. Still I'd argue that older players tend to have even less free time with family and long term career obligations as indeed people have mentioned ITT. I still think it's something in the WH/WM water.

What 28mm mass battle historicals are you taking about.

Fields of glory, pike and shotte, hail Caesar etc. warlord games alone has tons of 28mm historicals for use with these systems. Hell, just google 28mm napoleonics for some quick examples.

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

Paint with your family. Buy some cheap third party models, prime them, give your SO/kids/parents five colors, and sit down at the table and paint with them.

If they like scifi, get some Infinity models. If they like fantasy get some Dreamforge skeletons or Orks. If they like history, buy some Greek Hoplites or WWII infantry. If they like animals, get some cavalrymen.

I painted with my mom, and she was always asking if I used the models she painted on the table. When she came to visit she wanted to paint again. My buddy gave his wife a Dark Elf sorceress to paint, she painted it pink and covered it in glitter, looks awesome on the table. Give it a shot.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

Some could argue they find painting relaxing.

Some others argue that they don't give damn what you think about painting, as long as you're doing it.

This whole thread make me really sit down and think about the topic of painting and standards. I expanded my earlier post into an essay for the club blog if anyone would care to read and/or comment.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html

Noir wrote:

 Las wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Las wrote:
My favourite part about this whole issue is that the phenomenon of chronically unpainted armies is almost excusively limited to 28mm sci fi/fantasy games published by GW and PP.

To be fair, what other games have 1. Relatively large model number requirements and 2. Are played by a population that either in school or working?

If you're into historicals then I don't think I have to point out the huge model counts of napoleonics and ancients (both of which are often played at 28mm). However I think you're right about the age difference. Still I'd argue that older players tend to have even less free time with family and long term career obligations as indeed people have mentioned ITT. I still think it's something in the WH/WM water.

What 28mm mass battle historicals are you taking about.

Las is right. Historical players just shake their heads at the idea that folks can't be bothered to paint their armies.

Infinite Array,
I'm afraid your criteria doesn't hold up. Most historical games require lots of painting and are played by an adult population that is working, often have kids and other responsibilities.

Noir,
There are dozens (hundreds probably) of historical rulesets that play out in 28mm. Some even wargame in 54mm!

A few of the popular rulesets for 28mm historicals that would be platoon level and above (you'd rarely find "mass battle" in the title or description) include:
Hail Caesar
Pike and Shotte
Bolt Action
Warhammer Historicals
Black Powder
LaSalle
Among many, many others.

Historical players are also known to play many different sets of rules with the same sets of figures as they find rules they like better, but that doesn't mean they have less figures to paint. Ask your average player if they are able to confine themself to one faction and one era. They're likely going to give you a whole list of factions and eras that they collect, paint and play. Many historical players also use smaller scale minis like 15mm, but that's also not really a painting time saver because as the scale shrinks, the number of minis often increases exponentially.

Historical players don't have more free time or have less figures. They simply tend to paint the minis they play with.

Though not a historical player myself, I find myself in roughly the same lot as them. I play several different Sci-Fi and Fantasy games and have quite a few different factions for those games. I'm an adult with kids and responsibilities, but somehow I still find time to paint everything that hits the table.

Yeah, I'm probably wrong. But I'll definitely agree that if there's a segment of the wargaming community that gets its painting done before a game, it's the majority of historical players.

Eilif, excellent little essay! Well said.

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you have time to play, you have time to paint.

Assembling and painting many armies takes way longer than playing a game per week. If you only have a few hours a week to spend on the hobby, you could spend a year assembling and painting a decent sized army before you even get a game.

At the end of the day, an army with 50 or so models will usually take me 50 to 150 hours to assemble and paint. If you can't find that sort of time it won't get done.

I do not pain my armies. I work full time, at 40+ hours a week, and enjoy hanging out with friends who are not interested in Warhammer 40K. I do not have funds to pay somebody to paint for me, and since I do not participate in tournaments where painting is required (to be more precise I do not participate in tournaments with an entry fee), painting is a low priority to me.

If somebody does not want to play against me because I field a grey army, that is their choice. There are others who are just happy to get a game in.

Some of us just don't have any artistic talent or even worse, an issue with unsteady hands making painting not only difficult but impossible to appear even halfway decent. My paint skills are 'drybrushing' and 'spray basecoating'. I have models that are 10 years old and unpainted. 2nd Edition Tyranids in plastic gray and metal silver. It sucks that I have matte black models against a beautifully painted army, but frankly, I can live with that. If someone else has an issue, they can paint them for me for no charge. Otherwise, you get what you get.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that people drawn to historics are the sorts of people more inclined to paint their army before playing with it.

At the end of the day, it's a decent slab of time you have to invest to paint an army. You both need that time to spare and also the desire to spare it.

These days I only ever play with painted models, but I don't judge people who don't want to spend the time painting. These days it takes me over a year to assemble and paint a new 40k/WHFB army, compared to my first Lizardmen army that I did in about a month when I was 10 years old.

While I agree it's a good idea to encourage people to paint their armies, I don't think it's a good idea to discourage people who can't paint their armies from playing. In the case of historics, I think the people who can't paint their armies just never get involved in the first place, which in the context of 40k isn't a desirable situation.

... Is it odd that I, in the older end of the teenage bracket, will play mostly painted, on the rare occasion I get a game? I do have pushfits going on 4+ years unpainted, but that's because I paint before assembling fully, so if I can pry it appart/disassemble is safely to paint later (ie push-fits), I'll put it on a lower priority than the regular kits. While 5 of my cultists are painted, the other 15 aren't, and are in line behind a militarum tempestus force and other models in the chaos army, plus recent warmachine models. Thing is, while I don't dislike painting, I find it hard to get started, to allocate the time to sit down and pick up a brush. I have a model that's been half painted for at least a couple weeks. (Being a slow painter doesn't help.)

I do fully intend to paint everything I have, though, one model at a time.

I used to really suck at painting and just played ravenguard so i could just spraypaint everything black and be done with it. But nowadays i have a lot more patience and actually find painting really therapeutic. Still, i struggle to keep up with purchases and tournaments so when I played in my last i had a couple of unpainted models. I have less of a problem with unpainted models than i do proxies as i struggle to remember whats what unless its the actual model.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

kb305 wrote:
Because painting is not only a giant waste of your free time but also your health. (you cannot argue that sitting hunched over a desk spraying paint with an airbrush for hours is in any way healthy)

it can be enjoyable in small doses.

painting other people stuff for pathetically small amounts of money is also a waste of your life.

One could argue spending time browsing nerd forums on the internet is a waste of time, and also bad for your health.

it is, same with playing video games but at least it is fun and relaxing.

painting is a different animal. painting tiny details and doing good blending can actually get stressful - it will start to take a toll on your nerves after awhile.

Some could argue they find painting relaxing.

It definitely is for me. While I don't devote a whole lot of time to it, I do enjoy it a lot. I generally only paint one miniature at a time, though. When I gang paint, I kinda feel a little bit like I am working. However, I do love watching a bolter go from a blank slab of gray plastic, to a black undercoated one, to a black and metal basecoated one, to an inked one (my favorite step since the black ink really brings out the details and makes the metal look real), to a detailed one.

However, I can totally empathize with someone that doesn't want to paint their army or only undercoat them. It is VERY time consuming and stressful to some people. My brother-in-law is talking about possibly starting an army, but he has said that he either will leave the minis unpainted or pay someone to paint them. He doesn't handle stress very well and I could see him getting worked up just trying to paint. And if he shows up and all he has is a bunch of gray plastic, I won't mind. The game itself doesn't really require paint to work.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Some of us just don't have any artistic talent or even worse, an issue with unsteady hands making painting not only difficult but impossible to appear even halfway decent. My paint skills are 'drybrushing' and 'spray basecoating'. I have models that are 10 years old and unpainted. 2nd Edition Tyranids in plastic gray and metal silver. It sucks that I have matte black models against a beautifully painted army, but frankly, I can live with that. If someone else has an issue, they can paint them for me for no charge. Otherwise, you get what you get.

Step 1: apply spray paint

Step 2: apply nuln oil shade

Step 3: profit

No artistic ability required, and it's perfect for Tyranids. I've got nine genestealers that came with an eBay buy, sprayed them white, coated them with nuln oil, they look great. Pick a color you like for the spray/base coat, the shade will fill the nooks and add a shadow look. Your army will look cool, and if you ever want to improve the paint job, then you already have the base coat done.

 Las wrote:
Eilif, excellent little essay! Well said.

Thanks Las,
It wouldn't have happened if all you fine folks here at Dakka hadn't got the argument going!

I used to skip on painting and hated myself for it. I don't like to paint, but I've promised myself I'd paint every unit I buy/make now that I've started playing 40K again. Will it cut into my game time? Will it increase the time before I get to play games? Sure it will, but when I'll get to play with fully painted units, I'll like it more than playing with unpainted or WIP miniatures.

I don't have anything against the people who don't paint, like I said, I had a phase when I skipped painting whenever I could. For me personally, playing with a painted army increases my enjoyment of the game, which is why I'm trying to keep up with the expansion of my army/armies.

If my opponent doesn't have a fully painted army, I don't care much. Ideally most of his units will be back in their case soon as my waaagh! starts rolling.

I don't know. It seems like whenever I'm in the shop I see people who have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on their models, accessories, carrying bags, and all the swag, just to leave them unpainted (MAYBE primed) and looking like some dirty toddler's unloved toys.