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2018/11/12 07:07:36
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
I don't necessarily think it says the funds were miss spent (although they might have been), but they're certainly gone and delivery looks unlikely at present
I can only hope they can get Relic Knights out and so on sale giving an income stream), and Starfinder completed (showing they're a viable partner for design... I actually can't imagine pathfinder didn't insist the KS money for manufacture/shipping for this wasn't held separately)
2018/11/12 16:08:21
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
Mymearan wrote: So they’re missing $750 000 in order to complete the KS... yeah this isn’t going to end well. Maybe if they manage to find someone to buy them out.
According to that, yup. And that amount corresponds to around how much they spent for general overhead for 2016 and 2017 and part of 2018 before they ran out ($348k per year) that they seem to have taken out exclusively from the kickstarter after *choosing* to rewrite the game system multiple times leading to delays. I don't think paying their general expenses like utilities rent for multiple years after the (estimated) delivery date advertised in the kickstarter when it funded was what backers were expecting their money was to be used for instead of production/delivery.
In any case, it'd be great to hear which apparent AG or regulatory body they're responding to (assuming it's real again) as none of the ones that their earlier failed project, Robotech Tactics, worked on with Palladium seemed to care.
I can only hope they can get Relic Knights out and so on sale giving an income stream), and Starfinder completed (showing they're a viable partner for design... I actually can't imagine pathfinder didn't insist the KS money for manufacture/shipping for this wasn't held separately)
It's not looking good for starfinder as I follow Ninja Soda Division Pop exclusively for that project. Only about two dozen minis have made it out in theory and those apparently haven't made it to most backers (an inconsistent number/selection to some US backers and none internationally). Many backers report receiving poorly casted minis with excess flash, a shiny detailess finish, and/or missing/broken parts. A recent comment put it best when a backer looked at the prepainted ones that just arrived in stores and their KS minis that were the same sculpt looked like the rejected castings from that production run. YMMV. If they do finish Starfinder, it'll also be years later given the rate they're currently going.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 16:19:32
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/12 16:31:04
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
I saw a Starfinder mini in the wild the other day. It was... meh?
Anyway, posted in the other thread, but mostly just disappointed. Justin Gibbs really gave them a game designer, which has always been where SodaPop's appealing art failed to translate initial excitement into long term excitement.
A friend who backed RK2.0 convinced me to finally build my 1.0 kickstarter and the game is legitimately pretty interesting. Unfortunately, its got a pretty bad reputation to overcome and frankly, after this, I don't see that happening. Even if it gets out the door, I'm afraid its a ship that will quickly lose its way without Justin at the wheel.
2018/11/12 18:22:24
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Yep, it doesn't sound good. Still...I would like the honest answer of SPM here. Looks like their most vocal community manager left end of october, so...
And if everything goes to hell, that means my money is gone, I'm fully aware of it. I have little faith in the possibility of having it back by filing a complaint at this state, anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/12 18:23:05
2018/11/12 18:23:33
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
TL;DR, the project despite raising $1.1 million net of Kickstarter fees is $750k in the hole due to a series of unfortunate events, project creep and bad decisions.
The initial funds raised for the Kickstarter were collected at the end of 2015.
● Funds Raised: $1,277,204 (approximately $13,318 of pledges bounced)
● Total Fees: -$103,386 (These include Kickstarter and payment processing fees.)
● Annual Overhead: -$343,559 (This includes payroll, facilities leasing, and additional overhead.)...
With the Kickstarter funds expended it was upon us to be able to self fund the necessary cash needed to
complete the project. The remaining estimates for completion of the project are shown below.
● Manufacturing: $490,592.00
● Shipping: $238,000.00
● Remaining Development: $17,400
...
To date we have still not been able to secure funding for the approximately $750,000 needed to complete the
project. However, we continue to work diligently in an attempt to find the funds.
A backer pointed out that SDE:L is licensed from Soda Pop Miniatures to Ninja Division, which seem to share the same principal officers, which would explain why project expenses are so high - they took money off the table for themselves almost immediately in a way that is legal but not acceptable to some backers. The fact that they are trying to mention "licenses" in such an undetailed aside isn't exactly a model of transparency.
Marketing also seems strange to do for three years for a product that does not exist, and probably never will at this point.
I do not believe the annual overhead of $343k being attributed a project is reasonable, when Ninja Division does more than SDE:L. You don't need to rent a warehouse for product that doesn't exist. So in essence this project was used to cover failures from other projects.
At this stage their future plans are:
Remaining Options
Despite the above issues, we continue to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to fulfill our obligation.
Currently, we have a few options we are pursuing:
● We are in discussion with multiple companies about an acquisition of our studio. This includes
assistance in fulfilling our obligations.
● We are currently working with our manufacturing partner to produce Super Dungeon Arcade on credit.
While this is single product from the Kickstarter, it is considered a core product that has the potential to
jump start sales of our other existing products in the marketplace.
● Should one of our acquisition options fail to come through, or the Super Dungeon Arcade printing
proves a success, our manufacturer has expressed interest in working further with us on additional
products from the Kickstarter to slowly roll out production and meet our obligations.
In essence, they need a white knight with $750,000, with no estimated time line for delivery. In my opinion, they are still not being transparent about how the money was spent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 18:23:44
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2018/11/12 18:29:17
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
I bet it's just a matter of time the news get a snowball effect and get a reaction at the top of SPM in the end...word is already spreading on other Kickstarters made by SPM, indeed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 18:29:52
2018/11/12 19:32:55
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
So there solution is to sell the company along with their obligations or get stuff produced for free? I didn't realize that the old cartoon Wimpy's catch phrase was still a viable business strategy in 2018.
Spoiler:
I didn't catch the part that they were basically paying themselves hefty licensing fees for largely the same people in the same location to work on the project. I guess that's a pretty good gig along with having the kickstarter funds pay for some (or all?) of their operating expenses for years while not actually completing the products they were actually pledged for.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/12 19:33:42
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/12 19:40:57
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules. Small fixes, that should have been previewed during the KS. Instead, no Beta before KS close and radio silence for months. Fed up backers started demanding that SPM show what they were doing for the rules, because tweaks should have been easy to get out the door. Eventually, SPM released a clean sheet ruleset that had NOTHING do do with the FK version.
If the Backers hadn't been vocal about SPM's failure to share rules, there wouldn't have been any Beta rules at all.
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules. Small fixes, that should have been previewed during the KS. Instead, no Beta before KS close and radio silence for months. Fed up backers started demanding that SPM show what they were doing for the rules, because tweaks should have been easy to get out the door. Eventually, SPM released a clean sheet ruleset that had NOTHING do do with the FK version.
If the Backers hadn't been vocal about SPM's failure to share rules, there wouldn't have been any Beta rules at all.
I have never seen evidence of 'wide scale demand from fans for total rewrite'. I have also never seen evidence of the arbitrary change from 'organized missions for explore' to 'a full on RPG lite system with nothing to do with SDE Explore' being backer demanded. Those are both either fake news, or grossly exaggerated.
I *DO* remember breakdowns explaining how Arcadia Quest beating them to market forced them to 'rush' TFK which made the 1.5 rules bad and them blaming CMoN for their issues. I also remember them explicitly saying that the re-write was chosen because it had no expected impact on the delays of the project. Also, not a word is mentioned that backers demanded this change in the slightest.
Today is a big, long designer diary update. Grab a snack and a soda, it's going to take a bit.
Go read this thread in the backers' forum. It's a really good thread. Seriously, go read it before reading the rest of this post, because it is all connected.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
All done? Good. Let's chat about some things.
I had made most of my planned changes to the beta rules last weekend. Then I read the above post. It has given me a lot to think about over the week. A LOT to think about.
In short, it gave voice to a concern that has been itching at the back of my mind for awhile now which I could not quite place.
When we first created Super Dungeon Explore we had a singular vision. All three creators were (and still are) miniature gamers. We wanted a tactical miniature board game. However, we're also RPG and lore junkies, so we created a giant world for the game too. We gave voice to that world in little snippets in card text, and people latched onto it.
It was not long before we saw people asking for and developing their own stories, scenarios, and RPG-lite elements. We loved it. It tickled our own RPG tendencies and desires. While we loved that the game was essentially a battle game Heroes vs Consul, we intimately understood how people wanted the game to have even more. Heck, we wanted more too, we have so many cool ideas to share! We also saw the rise of people disliking "competitive" play and only wanting a cooperative experience, with no one playing the Consul. Everybody wants to be a winner! That's cool, we could get behind that. Then we saw calls for solo play. Heck ya, we wanted to play a game when we were bored and didn't have friends over. We could do that.
Fast forward to Forgotten King. We were about to begin our foray into solo publishing, and had just found out that there was a very similar product being created. This required us, as a new company, to have to deal with direct competition in the chibi-style dungeon crawl market for the first time, and straight out of the gate. We had been planning 2nd Edition, but our timetables suddenly changed drastically. We felt we needed to strike while the iron was hot! We saw all this enthusiasm for Super Dungeon, all these exciting things that people wanted to be able to do with the game—things we wanted to be able to do too. So we did them all, thus blurring what we first intended Super Dungeon to be.
Super Dungeon Explore's basic structure groaned under the weight of so many new additions all at once. Don't get me wrong, Forgotten King is friggin’ awesome, and there are many incredible play experiences contained within. But it requires a judicious hand, and some tailoring to your group. We knew this. It's why we have difficulty settings in the back of the book. We also don't think it is a bad thing. As miniature gamers, we always come up with cool scenarios to play for our games. As roleplayers, we love tweaking things for story and fun. However, it did change the core experience of Super Dungeon Explore. It went from a battle board game to dungeon board game toolkit—here are the base rules to play, now do what you want! Some people love it. Some people dislike it. For people who live and breathe based on BGG ratings it kept pretty much the same rating, actually bouncing up .5 points. But one thing is undeniable, Super Dungeon Explore changed its identity between First Edition and Forgotten King.
That brings us to Super Dungeon Explore: 2nd Edition, and back to my original point from the beginning. Something has been sitting wrong with me. I couldn't place it though until I saw the linked post. Bam! There it is.
Right now, we’re building 2nd Edition off of Forgotten King. That means we're using the "whole kitchen sink." But we don’t have to. Not anymore. Now we have Super Dungeon: Legends. Legends is our RPG-lite expansion built upon Explore’s mechanics. Super Dungeon: Explore can go back to being fast and furious dungeon combat. Super Dungeon: Arcade is our cooperative and solo-play expansion. The unlocked pets will get rules in the form of Super Dungeon: Pet Parade. Pet Parade will be a fuller and more robust ruleset introducing pets into the game. These core systems will join the upcoming, Super Dungeon PVP Arena as the foundation of the Super Dungeon: 2nd Edition experience. Just to recap:
SUPER DUNGEON: 2ND EDITION
Super Dungeon: Explore. Core game rulebook and game components. Introduces the Super Dungeon: 2nd Edition rules. Focuses on Consul vs Hero dungeon combat, loot, treasure and battle.
Super Dungeon: Arcade. Rulebook, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces “Hero only” cooperative play and solo play.
Super Dungeon: Legends. Rulebook and Legends specific components, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces campaign play and roleplaying elements, including narrative games and custom dungeon creation.
Super Dungeon: Pet Parade. Rules and models, requires Forgotten King or Super Dungeon: Explore components. Introduces pets and animal companions.
Super Dungeon: PVP Arena. Stand alone game, requires models. 2-player, head-to-head tactical battle game set in the Super Dungeon universe. (Note: PVP Arena is not part of this Kickstarter, and is only included in this list for completeness.)
Each ruleset represents unique gameplay options. They will all build on the core Super Dungeon Explore experience.
IMPORTANT ITEMS
New cards or models are NOT required for veterans. Your current collection of cards and models built upon Forgotten King are all used.
Each pledge will receive all of the content it is due.
Delivery time is NOT affected. We are still within our window for writing and delivering final text for production. If this changes you will, of course, be notified.
The Dark Consul pledge will now include a print copy of the 2nd Edition rulebook. Since core components such as tokens and boards are not changing, these rules are all you need to play in the 2nd Edition environment with your current Forgotten King components.
All pledges of Explorer and above will include a print copy of the Pet Parade rules.
PLAYTESTING
Okay, so where does that put us for playtesting? Well, a lot of the changes I made based on feedback before this week are being scrapped. I will be taking the current 2nd Edition rules and moving many of the rpg-lite elements into Legends, where they belong. I will then turn to reprocessing the huge amount of feedback I’ve received on 2nd Edition with a new eye. The goal is to take the best of Forgotten King and the best of Super Dungeon Explore: First Edition and merge them into a new almighty, all powerful, true-to-identity Super Dungeon Explore. Mwhahahahaha! I’m going to burn midnight oil to get these turned around ASAP.
UPDATE SCHEDULE
Weekly updates will continue. However, I’m going to start sending them on days when new material is ready for playtesting, instead of a fixed day. We will return to fixed day updates when the rough edges are smoothed out.
I will be posting this update in the backer forums. I will keep my eye on comments here, but I will do most my discussion there, since it is far easier to keep up with and track.
Until next time—
SPARKLEBURST!
Remember... *THEY* decided to totally restructure the product for reasons of their own making. It wasn't until the changes were 'BAD' because Deke isn't good at writing rules that they needed to scrap everything, do a total re-write and hire Justin. They had decided before feedback was gathered about the failed BETA to restructure and the issues with TFK. Backers explicitly said 'We don't want to you to change legends to a totally different product" and there was never an option presented to "print as-is or total re-write". That was made as a business decision and what they felt was 'good fro the brand' not 'what was good for backers and completing the project.'
As promised, today we have a development/production update for you.
Let’s start right off with the bad news, and then go through the rest.
Delivery will be delayed until Spring 2017.
I know, it sucks. Just typing it makes me frustrated too.
Now the big question: Why is it going to be late?
There are a few reasons:
1. The 2nd Edition Rules didn’t survive first contact. Several months ago, I posted all about this in an update. This caused a big restructure in how we addressed 2nd Edition, Legends, etc. This had a ripple effect which caused several plans we had to require adjustment. As we continue to develop 2nd Edition, we need to always remain conscious of how it affects everything else that was previously written prior to the launch of the Kickstarter, and prior to the decision to adjust 2nd Edition.
2. We overestimated writing development output against other duties. Just to be clear, I am the lead writer for Super Dungeon. I do NOT do primary development work on any other project. So other projects such as Rail Raiders Infinite, Way of the Fighter, and Relic Knights: 2nd Edition do not impact Super Dungeon’s dev time. Unfortunately, we have not hit the writing deadlines we needed to in order to ensure our planned December delivery.
3. We underestimated the amount of written product which we put into the Kickstarter. When we first hit Kickstarter the 2nd Edition rules were (we thought) 90% done. The Legends rules were about 70% done. The only thing that had not begun were the expanded adventures. As you know, we have a deep love for Super Dungeon and love to give you more, More, MORE! The free daily digital adventures, plus the expanding content from traditional stretch goals, plus our own desire to provide as much stuff as possible worked against us. While we did not break our cardinal rule of not adding extra content beyond what was planned, (Wait, we did do Mother Noctua and she wasn’t planned. Oops!) we did plan a lot of stuff and underestimated the time it would take to develop it to the standards which we desire.
Why are we telling you now?
We knew this was a big project, we gave ourselves a year to deliver. Art and sculpting has all largely kept on schedule. The hope was that writing could catch up. When we told you we were going back to the drawing board for 2nd, the timeline was such that, while tight, it was still possible to get it all done.
We’re now at the point where manufacturing has told us it is no longer possible. As per our full transparency policy, I’m telling you immediately. We also still have five months before the final delivery month ends. So we’re providing a good deal of advance notice.
What are we doing to make sure the delivery does not slip any further?
The biggest, and admittedly hardest, decision to make was for me to acknowledge and accept that Ninja Division and Soda Pop have grown too large for me to be able to maintain my Super Dungeon duties plus my other duties, and provide them with the love and attention they deserve. Blerg.
With that said, I’m happy to announce that Ninja Division has just finished hiring a new experienced rules designer, who will join us full-time and assist me in getting all rules development polished and finished in a timely manner.
The other elements of the Kickstarter are all still on track. Sculpting is only a couple models away from being complete, and we just received our first test samples from the molds which have been completed. (We'll share pics after Gencon! They just arrived today.)
The only art that is delayed is that which needs further writing for guidance. Once writing starts catching up, our crack team of artists will begin cranking out the last bits of art needed.
Why aren’t we posting more in the backer forums?
We like discussing theory as much the next person, but the feedback from the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of gameplay reports we’ve received are easily the most helpful. We are reading the forums, and the discussions which occur, but time we spend getting locked into debate is time we are not spending working, and time is at a premium.
Please use the game play report form. It is much easier for us to understand your viewpoint when we can read about the game and see decisions that led to your feedback.
When do you get Backer Beta 1.4?
Next month. Our goal is for Backer Beta 1.4 to hopefully be the last one (maybe 1.5), but we want our new designer to have input into the final versions, since it will become his and my toolbox for designing future expansions.
What’s next?
Well, for me: Gencon. Tomorrow we load our trucks and then drive out Saturday for our trek across the country. We will have an update next week, while at Gencon, but it will be small and from my phone.
After that, it’s back to work. As I explained above, models, art, etc are all done or in very advanced states. Weekly updates will continue. As always, we will keep you informed every step of the way, and continue to inform you of everything going on—good and bad.
Also, don't forget that once the print files are done, we will begin releasing your downloadable copies. So even with the delay on delivery, you will get to start your adventures, even as printing begins. The whole world of Crystalia is about to open up, providing you with a lifetime of new options, tools, adventures, campaigns, stories to tell, and experiences to share. We know waiting is hard, but we are devoted to making Super Dungeon worth the wait!
Until next week—
SPARKLEBURST!
Blaming the backers for the changes and delays isn't how it went down. The changes and delays were well set in stone before backers had a chance to provide feeback, and that feedback was far from unanimous or approving of the changes. By that point Deke was doing only Legends, which we all knew was vaporware, and should have had no impact on 2.0 Explore and 2.0 Arcade.
It simply doesn't add up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 20:15:19
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2018/11/12 20:39:34
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore 5 novel series announced)
Sarouan wrote: Well...if the validity of this document is legit, I will aknowledge it. TBH, it explains a lot of things. Means the move to completely overhaul the rule system (and listen to the vocal backers who constantly asked for it at the time) was what started the deadly spiral...
Hold on. The KS pitch was that they would tweak the FK rules.
It simply doesn't add up.
Not sure why you quoted me - you should have responded to Sarouan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/12 21:47:55
Oh, I'm talking about what was posted on the forums at that time. There were a few vocal backers there determined to see their changes written in the rules, and doing anything to support their claims.
SPM listened and answered to that.
So, yeah, I think it played a part in all of this sad story. But to be honest, there's no point in trying to blame someone in particular...the result is there, and it won't be changed now.
2018/11/12 20:59:46
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
People were pretty unhappy with Forgotten King. Mostly it centered around the game being too long and trivially easy when played in a boring, grindy way. Personally, I've never really considered something that triples the length of a game to remove the challenge an exploit, but a lot of people seemed very upset that the "optimal" way of winning wasn't any fun. There was a pretty hefty demand to fix it.
Now, did they fail to fix it within the constraints of the project to a ruinous level? Absolutely. Was Legends a bunch of cool promises on paper that lacked a proper implementation strategy to make actual working system. You bet. Did SPM screw over everyone who just wanted all the cool models that were the main physical product of this release worth investing in? Yes, yes they did.
But people WERE demanding a rewrite to Forgotten King. I don't think its fair to say otherwise. Whether or not it was a legitimate concern or a vocal minority I can't say, but as someone who skipped the FK KS and was picking the stuff up at retail based on reviews, I can say with a good deal of certainty that it was hard to find any discussions on the game without them getting sidetracked into how to fix the broken grind system.
2018/11/12 21:20:14
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
NAVARRO wrote: Almost half a million for project expenses, licenses???? Isnt SDE like original IP or something?
And Manufacturing: $490,592.00 Shipping: $238,000.00 ???
I dont get all those inflated numbers.
And let’s not forget they took more funds through the PM including shipping from all backers and haven’t accounted for those either those figures are omitted from the report to the AG and it’s rather convenient that they recently transferred their store from SPM to ND and disabled access to all the SPM account details including backers PMs.
I suspect they are holding the various IPs seperate to ND or SPM possibly in a holding company or in the hands of the owners and are charging SPM licensing fees to use that IP in effect paying themselves to use their own IP and have extract more funds that way. EDIT ah it’s mentioned above SPM licensed the IP to ND not in itself illegal but still shady.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/12 21:24:43
2018/11/12 21:23:01
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
It makes business sense for them to insulate the various IPs using different companies and names when they know they've screwed up royally. Prodos/Archon did it, ND/SPM did it with their various KS accounts, and Palladium attempted it with their Rifts board game.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/12 21:58:30
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
LunarSol wrote: People were pretty unhappy with Forgotten King. Mostly it centered around the game being too long and trivially easy when played in a boring, grindy way. Personally, I've never really considered something that triples the length of a game to remove the challenge an exploit, but a lot of people seemed very upset that the "optimal" way of winning wasn't any fun. There was a pretty hefty demand to fix it.
Now, did they fail to fix it within the constraints of the project to a ruinous level? Absolutely. Was Legends a bunch of cool promises on paper that lacked a proper implementation strategy to make actual working system. You bet. Did SPM screw over everyone who just wanted all the cool models that were the main physical product of this release worth investing in? Yes, yes they did.
But people WERE demanding a rewrite to Forgotten King. I don't think its fair to say otherwise. Whether or not it was a legitimate concern or a vocal minority I can't say, but as someone who skipped the FK KS and was picking the stuff up at retail based on reviews, I can say with a good deal of certainty that it was hard to find any discussions on the game without them getting sidetracked into how to fix the broken grind system.
The FK "Classic" ruleset was badly-done: slow and grindy, and unnecessarily overcomplicated. It's perhaps one of the best examples of "one small step forward, two giant steps back" in rules work. SPM recognized this, which is why they promised to "fix" it as part of the KS.
Players wanted a streamlined ruleset, because the FK ruleset was bad.
The call for a rewrite didn't occur until after until SPM released an all-new, untested ruleset that was even worse than the FK ruleset. UliThe Classic rules could have been fixed, but instead, SPM went in an all-new direction that kind of combined many of the worst features of Original (e.g. mandatory physical tracker) and FK "Classic", resulting in a Frankenstein ruleset that "works" but is so overt and clumsy.
Had SPM simply backtracked to FK Classic or Original as the starting point, and asked for input on the top 3-5 things to change/remove, the game would have been fine. It could have been playtested and made simpler, better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/12 21:59:11
NAVARRO wrote: Almost half a million for project expenses, licenses???? Isnt SDE like original IP or something?
And Manufacturing: $490,592.00 Shipping: $238,000.00 ???
I dont get all those inflated numbers.
And let’s not forget they took more funds through the PM including shipping from all backers and haven’t accounted for those either those figures are omitted from the report to the AG and it’s rather convenient that they recently transferred their store from SPM to ND and disabled access to all the SPM account details including backers PMs.
I suspect they are holding the various IPs seperate to ND or SPM possibly in a holding company or in the hands of the owners and are charging SPM licensing fees to use that IP in effect paying themselves to use their own IP and have extract more funds that way. EDIT ah it’s mentioned above SPM licensed the IP to ND not in itself illegal but still shady.
Shady indeed and bad track record. They can play that game for sure but anyone with some business sense will not get involved with them unless there is some serious colateral… at this point seems its the core that is rotten and that is harder to fix than just say a bad product. Still is shocking how a 1.2 million project screwed SO much to get to this point… well someone is well off because the money just doesnt vanish.
ND hasn't paid Archon for any of the Starfinder, Relic Knights 2 or Humble Bundle. So assume that money is also 'gone on overhead expenses' and explanation why the resin releases have stopped.
It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation. However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid). This should not, however, affect what we are doing, as external contracts are about 15% of total Archons turnover. The worst-case scenario is that Archon will have to cover all the manufacturing losses, and this could mean that some of our FUTURE internal projects could be delayed, but that's nothing major. Anyway, please wait for an official statement. We are all hoping that ND will find some solution. Thanks.
So they have no money for SDE:L and need credit.
They have no money for any of their RESIN, and need SDE:L to generate money to pay for the resin they already have made because that is REAL debt to REAL companies.
They then need the money from the Resin they sell to generate money for SDE:L.
And they knew they were broke in 2016. but ran 4 more KS after that which they knew they couldn't pay for because that money was being sent to 'keeping the lights on'.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2018/11/14 14:14:52
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
The writing was on the wall over 2 years ago, which is why I avoided any of their projects before or since.
After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Then, SDE runs into problems, they dump the Robotech fiasco, and run a bunch more campaigns that are problematic at best.
If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
How they are claiming money was spent does not line up with what they made. They were and still are, crooks.
If anyone wonders how their funds were misappropriated, look a few pages back at SPM/ND GenCon booth....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/14 14:16:09
2018/11/14 14:24:24
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Ghool wrote: If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
It's not that people don't pay attention but that they actively seek to silence the warnings as long as they're not the ones currently being ripped off. Folks post their ongoing negative consumer experiences with the likes of Soda Ninja Pop Division, Prodos Archon, and Palladium Rogue Studios and people tell them to STFU and GTFO. As long as they're potentially getting minis they want at a discount, they don't care. You see it all the time in kickstarter comment sections especially but even here on dakka where a company like Prodos can choose NOT to ship rewards from a 5+ year kickstarter to backers but people will post that they don't care because they placed an order two weeks ago and got their shipment. There is very little consumer advocacy and fellowship in the gaming customer base unfortunately and that allows bad apples to prosper or at least limp along.
ND hasn't paid Archon for any of the Starfinder, Relic Knights 2 or Humble Bundle. So assume that money is also 'gone on overhead expenses' and explanation why the resin releases have stopped.
It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation. However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid).
That would put a dent in 50% of their future business plans/solutions to the current issues since the only ideas they had were to sell the company (and the debts) or get stuff produced for free. I'm surprised that Prodos let them do it on credit given how shady Prodos/Archon are themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 14:51:39
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/14 15:02:45
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Ghool wrote: If folks just paid more attention and we're more careful with their money, these types of people and companies wouldn't be able to run off with millions of dollars for years full of empty promises.
It's not that people don't pay attention but that they actively seek to silence the warnings as long as they're not the ones currently being ripped off. Folks post their ongoing negative consumer experiences with the likes of Soda Ninja Pop Division, Prodos Archon, and Palladium Rogue Studios and people tell them to STFU and GTFO. As long as they're potentially getting minis they want at a discount, they don't care. You see it all the time in kickstarter comment sections especially but even here on dakka where a company like Prodos can choose NOT to ship rewards from a 5+ year kickstarter to backers but people will post that they don't care because they placed an order two weeks ago and got their shipment. There is very little consumer advocacy and fellowship in the gaming customer base unfortunately and that allows bad apples to prosper or at least limp along.
They are doing this even now. There are SPM/ND supporters who are wanting to give more money and run GOFUNDME and claim anyone warning others of bad business are 'stealing from them' because they want new customers to throw money down the well to fund their product and let the new money get screwed.
A real quote from someone blaming backers and bad consumer reviews and saying people should support ND future projects so he can 'get his':
They are on purpose and knowingly trying to stop ANY chance that SD will carry on or even refund backers money. So on a personal level, they are trying to steal £300 from me and burn it. On a non-personal level which includes me, they are trying to steal all the money the backers paid and burn it. They are making sure there are NO winners, only losers.. and think they win because they can taste the blood on their lips..
That is the attitude you are talking about. I want to protect other people in the community from getting tricked or losing their money. I would rather this PONZI end now, with me and my mistake opposed to get my rewards at the expense of starfinder people or IDW new customers getting screwed later. That is why I love Dakka. They never forget and keep companies history out for all to see.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2018/11/14 16:12:41
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Just a note : no one loves Captain Hindsight. So better leave the "you just had to know" kind of post behind, it brings nothing but free gloating.
Besides, SPM has also nothing to do in the Robotech Kickstarter. Would be good if people stop blaming unrelated things to, well, unrelated events.
As for the feeling...well, you can't deny there was a real negativity surrounding the SDE Kickstarter for quite a very long time and it seems to have played a part as well in SPM's demise, if you believe what is written in SPM's answer to the AG on that document. So it can be understood that way. Since you are one of those supporting that negativity for a while, Nkelsch, I can see why you feel you have to justify yourself. That doesn't mean the reasons why you say you did it are exactly how the others see it in the end...and I must admit I wasn't seeing you as a defender of consumers, given the way you posted at that time, but rather someone dedicated to sink the whole ship for your own justice, no matter how many people are still on board.
It's really a matter of points of view, but now ? I feel like it's completely pointless. I feel like I'm living the whole Spartan Games' demise again...with no winner in the end.
2018/11/14 17:31:13
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Ghool wrote: After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Relic Knights was produced by CMoN, so one could give SPM the benefit of the doubt at the time.
SPM's Forgotten King delivered more-or-less like a "regular" KS, so no particular red flags there.
Legends was supposed to be SPM turning the crank again, so things should have been similar to FK.
It wasn't until months after Legends closed that we found out that SPM hadn't done jack gak on the rules cleanup that they had promised, and were holding up EVERYTHING becase of it. Even then, there wasn't any excuse to not produce Wave 1 or something within the first year. That's BS
Ghool wrote: After Relic Knights was a dud with some of the worst produced models I have seen to date, I boggle at how anyone would trust them with anything after that.
Relic Knights was produced by CMoN, so one could give SPM the benefit of the doubt at the time.
SPM's Forgotten King delivered more-or-less like a "regular" KS, so no particular red flags there.
Legends was supposed to be SPM turning the crank again, so things should have been similar to FK.
It wasn't until months after Legends closed that we found out that SPM hadn't done jack gak on the rules cleanup that they had promised, and were holding up EVERYTHING becase of it. Even then, there wasn't any excuse to not produce Wave 1 or something within the first year. That's BS
I think you mean that CMON distributed Relic Knights not produced.
There's a big difference.
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
