Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Machine Spirit is just a really fancy computer. It often gets misrepresented in some fluff as an actual spirirt, but those authors are confused.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Machine Spirit is just a really fancy computer. It often gets misrepresented in some fluff as an actual spirirt, but those authors are confused.



The original idea behind worshipping the Machine Spirit was to show how superstitious people were in 40K. And that some of it was exagerrated and encouraged by members of the Mechanicum.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Prayers and rituals to anoint the machine spirit is 40K speak for field maintenance and yelling "WORK DAMMIT" when your cogitator video screen gives you static.

thsoundman wrote:
Hey guys thanks for replying to me! Yes I've actually taken to reading a lot of the 40k books. I actually really enjoy them and I must admit they have resulted in me collecting a pretty large range of 40k books. They are surprisingly enjoyable to read and some are incredibly well written. I would suggest you check out Death of Integrity. It's actually quite an enjoyable read! Going back to my original post yes I've gathered that the Imperium has digressed quite a bit but to what degree has always been a topic of much debate for me.

I'm mildly curious to how the Imperium is going to handle the glaring upcoming problems it's going to have to face:

1. The Tau empire is by far and large technologically superior to the Imperium in almost every way with a few exceptions including Warp Travel and some the Imperium's weapons are far more powerful. But by an large, especially if you read the Ultramarines novels and Ciaphas Cain novels you can tell both the descriptions and by Ciaphas Cain's own admission that the Tau Tech is quite impressive and it's quickly getting better. There will come a point where the Imperium, technologically, will be so far outclassed by the Tau ships that it will be like when the Imperium fights the Necrons *See Dawn of War novel for Eldar and Imperium fighting Necrons*. Fire loads of ammunition and cause no damage. The Tau, as far as I can tell, only need to solve their Warp Travel and Interstellar communication problems and they will be able to advance quickly. The only real advantage the Imperium would have at that point would be numbers which if you're inferior technologically doesn't count for much. One could argue that the Imperium could wipe out the Tau if they wanted to but I don't think they could if they wanted to because of all their resources being devoted to the Eye of Terror. I would say the most reasonable solution to this would be a drawn up non-aggression pact. There would obviously never be any sort of official alliance but something under the table might be established. Or they might make them a 'sanctioned Xenos'. I actually think the Imperium would benefit greatly from an Alliance with the Tau, especially if the Tau would share some of their technological insights but I digress.

2. Failing of the Golden Throne - As it's beyond the ability of the Mechanicus to repair I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility they might seek help from outside sources. The only immediate race I could think of that might consider doing this is the Tau as they seem to have a very good understanding of technology. But of course this would violate the excessive racism prevalent in the Imperium as well as letting a Xenos into the Sanctum Imperialis. As we all know the Imperium's life blood depends on the Astronomican for it's communication and navigation. The only way that the Imperium could avoid this by finding a solution to it's travel and communication or repairing the Golden Throne. The failure of the Golden Throne and death of the Emperor *aside form the end times, etc* would be the end of the Imperium as we know it and would essentially be another Age of Strife.

If I'm incorrect in any of my statements feel free to correct me as I'm still coming to terms with all the lore lol.

The pinnacle of Tau technology, the Hero class was the product of Tau experience during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. The Tau were determined that they should have a ship that could match
the Imperial Lunar class. As it became evident, they failed but they did succeed in producing a credible ship of the line.

 YourIntestines wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Prayers and rituals to anoint the machine spirit is 40K speak for field maintenance and yelling "WORK DAMMIT" when your cogitator video screen gives you static.

Which one of their 4 servo-arms would the tech-priest hit it with?

thsoundman wrote:


I'm mildly curious to how the Imperium is going to handle the glaring upcoming problems it's going to have to face:

1. I would say the most reasonable solution to this would be a drawn up non-aggression pact. There would obviously never be any sort of official alliance but something under the table might be established. Or they might make them a 'sanctioned Xenos'. I actually think the Imperium would benefit greatly from an Alliance with the Tau, especially if the Tau would share some of their technological insights but I digress.

2. seek help from outside sources. The only immediate race I could think of that might consider doing this is the Tau as they seem to have a very good understanding of technology.

Durandal wrote:

In contrast the Tau have all the learning infrastructure in place and are accelerating, but they are a smaller empire then the domains of the Ultramarines and have yet to face a serious challenge. The Damocles crusade was called off, they haven't faced a moderate to large Ork or Nid invasion and have been relatively untouched by chaos or eldar. Now imagine if Commander Farsight returned and attacked the Tau septs intent on freeing his people from the rule of the Etherials, and he had about equal strength to Shadowsun and her loyalist forces. How do you think the Tau would fare?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Durandal wrote:

In contrast the Tau have all the learning infrastructure in place and are accelerating, but they are a smaller empire then the domains of the Ultramarines and have yet to face a serious challenge. The Damocles crusade was called off, they haven't faced a moderate to large Ork or Nid invasion and have been relatively untouched by chaos or eldar. Now imagine if Commander Farsight returned and attacked the Tau septs intent on freeing his people from the rule of the Etherials, and he had about equal strength to Shadowsun and her loyalist forces. How do you think the Tau would fare?

This isn't quite true. The Tau had already dealt with ork Waaaghs and Tyranids, both are fairly formidable threats. They just have not dealt with Chaos yet (aside from in the Jericho Reach and with Farsight). The Damocles gulf crusade was called off, because it A) ran into far stiffer resistance than it had prepared for (remember that the Crusade entered the gulf with the assumption that this was some tiny alien pocket empire, not what they actually found, which was a Sept according to sources almost as heavily fortified as a sector capital), and B) tyranids. they also fought the Jericho Reach Crusade, and held their own fairly well, even making gains AGAINST the Crusade's already held worlds, but all sides there are currently distracted by tyranids (again) Necrons and Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

There's probably something metaphysical to machine spirits as well. There seems to be three types. Organic computers made from the brains of people, extremely advanced AI self aware on some level that the Admech protects, and some strange metaphysical actual spirit. IIRC there's mention somewhere of some gears rotating despite being connected to no motor or power source.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

There's probably something metaphysical to machine spirits as well. There seems to be three types. Organic computers made from the brains of people, extremely advanced AI self aware on some level that the Admech protects, and some strange metaphysical actual spirit. IIRC there's mention somewhere of some gears rotating despite being connected to no motor or power source.

Yeah, but there are also plenty of real life stories of ghosts, miracles, alien abductions and statues of saints that will cry blood. Superstitious people will report superstitious things.

 Psienesis wrote:
40K doesn't present any fluff as an omniscient narrator. At best, we get a third-person perspective who reports what it believes to be true, but as the studio states, everything they produce is just as full of lies, myths and half-truths as anything else.

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".
But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

locarno24 wrote:

thsoundman wrote:
Hey guys thanks for replying to me! Yes I've actually taken to reading a lot of the 40k books. I actually really enjoy them and I must admit they have resulted in me collecting a pretty large range of 40k books. They are surprisingly enjoyable to read and some are incredibly well written. I would suggest you check out Death of Integrity. It's actually quite an enjoyable read! Going back to my original post yes I've gathered that the Imperium has digressed quite a bit but to what degree has always been a topic of much debate for me.

I'm mildly curious to how the Imperium is going to handle the glaring upcoming problems it's going to have to face:

1. The Tau empire is by far and large technologically superior to the Imperium in almost every way with a few exceptions including Warp Travel and some the Imperium's weapons are far more powerful. But by an large, especially if you read the Ultramarines novels and Ciaphas Cain novels you can tell both the descriptions and by Ciaphas Cain's own admission that the Tau Tech is quite impressive and it's quickly getting better. There will come a point where the Imperium, technologically, will be so far outclassed by the Tau ships that it will be like when the Imperium fights the Necrons *See Dawn of War novel for Eldar and Imperium fighting Necrons*. Fire loads of ammunition and cause no damage. The Tau, as far as I can tell, only need to solve their Warp Travel and Interstellar communication problems and they will be able to advance quickly. The only real advantage the Imperium would have at that point would be numbers which if you're inferior technologically doesn't count for much. One could argue that the Imperium could wipe out the Tau if they wanted to but I don't think they could if they wanted to because of all their resources being devoted to the Eye of Terror. I would say the most reasonable solution to this would be a drawn up non-aggression pact. There would obviously never be any sort of official alliance but something under the table might be established. Or they might make them a 'sanctioned Xenos'. I actually think the Imperium would benefit greatly from an Alliance with the Tau, especially if the Tau would share some of their technological insights but I digress.

2. Failing of the Golden Throne - As it's beyond the ability of the Mechanicus to repair I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility they might seek help from outside sources. The only immediate race I could think of that might consider doing this is the Tau as they seem to have a very good understanding of technology. But of course this would violate the excessive racism prevalent in the Imperium as well as letting a Xenos into the Sanctum Imperialis. As we all know the Imperium's life blood depends on the Astronomican for it's communication and navigation. The only way that the Imperium could avoid this by finding a solution to it's travel and communication or repairing the Golden Throne. The failure of the Golden Throne and death of the Emperor *aside form the end times, etc* would be the end of the Imperium as we know it and would essentially be another Age of Strife.

If I'm incorrect in any of my statements feel free to correct me as I'm still coming to terms with all the lore lol.

Yes and no.

Put a tau hardware against 'common' imperial tech (that which gets issued to the imperial guard) and it's better. The guard stuff has advantages in terms of ease of manufacture, reliability, etc, but not in performance. However, a logistic or maintenance advantage is cold comfort to the specific guardsman who's going to lose a single firefight because of a firepower disadvantage, even if it means his comrades might win a campagain.

Put tau hardware against 'high' imperial tech (that which gets issued to the Space Marines, Militarum Tempestus, etc) and it's not as good as it first looks. Yes, tau plasma weapons don't overheat - but not because they are more sophisticated, but because they are lower power. Yes, a pulse rifle is impressive - but it's also a massively unwieldy hand-cannon. Compare it to a bolter loaded with Kraken Penetrator bolts and....actually it falls kind of short. Battlesuits are tougher than powered armour but that's mostly due to bulk whilst the imperium can hide force fields as good as a hardpoint shield generator in what's essentially jewelry.

Put tau hardware up against imperial archeotech - the stuff the mechanicus keeps mostly to itself and/or occasionally shares with the inquisition - and it's not even close. Teleporters? Human-scale Artificer Plate that's barely more bulky than tau combat armour but deflects krak missiles?

Equally, tau ships are improving but aren't as good as the tau like to think - the tau have a weakness when it comes to building things on such a huge scale. I refer you to their latest warship in battlefleet gothic:

The pinnacle of Tau technology, the Hero class was the product of Tau experience during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. The Tau were determined that they should have a ship that could match
the Imperial Lunar class. As it became evident, they failed but they did succeed in producing a credible ship of the line.

Bear in mind that the Lunar-class is a standard Imperial line cruiser capable of being built in orbital docks at non-forge worlds.

The tau are improving their tech, but some things aren't just engineering. The warp is a big one; without psykers and/or navigators, improving the warp drive by itself doesn't help. For that matter, developing a prototype warp drive before you've developed a functioning gellar field prototype is asking for trouble (not the earth caste's fault - no-one told them about that bit). The tau tried to observe warp phenomena on Medusa V to figure out the physics and came away more confused than ever.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends on what you are comparing current tech to.

Relative to the Heresy, there has been slight improvement. Moretech has been found then lost. Distribution of tech has gotten worse, but knowledge has increased.

Relative to the Dark Age of Technology, they might as well be hitting their opponents with sticks. And their opponents are doing the same.

Durandal wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Durandal wrote:

In contrast the Tau have all the learning infrastructure in place and are accelerating, but they are a smaller empire then the domains of the Ultramarines and have yet to face a serious challenge. The Damocles crusade was called off, they haven't faced a moderate to large Ork or Nid invasion and have been relatively untouched by chaos or eldar. Now imagine if Commander Farsight returned and attacked the Tau septs intent on freeing his people from the rule of the Etherials, and he had about equal strength to Shadowsun and her loyalist forces. How do you think the Tau would fare?

This isn't quite true. The Tau had already dealt with ork Waaaghs and Tyranids, both are fairly formidable threats. They just have not dealt with Chaos yet (aside from in the Jericho Reach and with Farsight). The Damocles gulf crusade was called off, because it A) ran into far stiffer resistance than it had prepared for (remember that the Crusade entered the gulf with the assumption that this was some tiny alien pocket empire, not what they actually found, which was a Sept according to sources almost as heavily fortified as a sector capital), and B) tyranids. they also fought the Jericho Reach Crusade, and held their own fairly well, even making gains AGAINST the Crusade's already held worlds, but all sides there are currently distracted by tyranids (again) Necrons and Chaos.

The Tau haven't faced anything truly large. The Damocles crusade had 5 companies of Space marines, 18 IG regiments and a titan force, and this is by far the largest foe they faced. A single war boss, Grog Ironteef burned several Tau worlds and was only defeated by Tau super science. That didn't end the threat, only intervention by the Space Marines keeping the ork tribes disorganized has prevented the rise of a new war boss.

In contrast 40 space marine chapters were sent in a retributive action against Craftworld Biel Tan for sterilizing worlds in advance of Hive fleet Leviathan. The loyalists fighting in the Badab War had about 98 companies strength. The Achilus crusade retaking Jericho Reach has 19 companies plus guard, nuns and others.
The chaos warsmith Honsu had an army roughly 17 companies in strength just from winning the Skull Harvest. It is pretty clear that any conflict the scale of the wars for Armageddon or higher would destroy or significantly harm the Tau Empire, let alone Black Crusade levels.

tgjensen wrote:
Well here's what Marc Gascoigne had to say on the subject:

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".
But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

I grabbed that quote from a post that Aaron Dembski-Bowden made, just in case you think the current crop of Black Library authors have changed their position.

TL;DR: No omniscient narrators.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Neither of whom are the head of GW publishing, and thus their word is completely worthless. While I may love ADB as an author, he does not hold ownership of the IP, and thus his word is meaningless.