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 Dullspork wrote:

I believe that in-store gaming in an important value-add that B&M stores offer (or SHOULD offer) and many people value that. Loyalty to a game store is something that should not be dismissed.

This. I'll happily pay a couple of bucks above online discount prices to support my FLGS, since my FLGS also provides me with space, tables, and terrain I can use for free (or, if you prefer, the cost of using those is bundled into the stuff I buy). In fact, if I want something obscure and/or not typically carried by my FLGS, my first step is not to immediately buy it online, but to ask if the store can order it for me (which they usually can). It also helps that the staff are good people. If, however, the store didn't have gaming tables or anything and was literally just a place to buy things and then I was expected to play at home or a friends' house, and/or the staff were all a bunch of slack-jawed donkey-caves, well, then I'd be buying online.

Its really difficult to type a long reply here without giving all sorts away.

GW do all sorts of stuff and claim to be protecting Indy retail stores. They detest Indy stores, but they are an evil they have to endure. They wish they didn't have to deal with any of them but the lure of cash is too high. Their trade terms are all about driving sales to their own channel.

As an internet retailer we don't have low operating costs, despite what might be assumed. It is expensive to do things right. We also have a bricks and mortar presence and one we intend to grow but we are primarily an internet business. There will always be customers that will only buy on-line, there will be those that only buy in store and any number of those who have a huge variety of preferences either way. There is room for the Internet and physical stores.

Competition is good and a clear sign of competition is price if competition is strong then prices would be lower. If there is little competition then prices would be high.

Funny how discounters are the ones being attacked in trade terms changes continuously. Funny that. Driving prices higher, segmenting market places, placing limitations on supply; do they look like signs of a competitive market functioning correctly or do they smell like something that should be addressed?

rich1231 wrote:
Competition is good and a clear sign of competition is price if competition is strong then prices would be lower. If there is little competition then prices would be high.

Funny how discounters are the ones being attacked in trade terms changes continuously. Funny that. Driving prices higher, segmenting market places, placing limitations on supply; do they look like signs of a competitive market functioning correctly or do they smell like something that should be addressed?

For me, that is the easiest to understand summation of all the issues people have with GW trade terms and so much else with GW.

It was a real classy move of GWs breaking up the relationship betwen Beasts of War and Wayland Games too, if I recall that correctly. But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.

I only buy at my local FLGS. Sure, I could find it cheaper, but I use their tables and enjoy the community there. I've been all over and it's by far my favorite place. They have an on-line store, "Spiky Bits," and the FLGS is "FTW Games." Fantastic place. At least eight gaming tables and even more for MTG. (which I don't play.)
If they don't have something, I order it through them. They have a membership where you can build up store credit and buy/sell used stuff. Love it.

 Yonan wrote:
But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.

This claim from GW is probably one of the biggest signs that they are totally out of touch with the community.


Aside from the fact that online stores grow the hobby by allowing people with no other access to games to actually buy them in the first place, there are any number of those 'freeloading' online businesses that stepped into the gap left by GW withdrawing their support for the tournament scene. There's a locally-run online business who provides fairly significant prize support to just about every single local tournament, and from looking around here and overseas, there are any number of other online businesses doing similar. Hell, when the inaugural (and sadly only) Auscon convention was run here in Brisbane a few years back, one of those internet 'freeloaders' actually approached the organisers with an offer to fund the whole damn shebang.

So claiming that these guys do nothing for the hobby is just ludicrous.

 Yonan wrote:
But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.

Sure they do, they offer GW products as cheaply as possible. If you play at home or in a private club instead of a store that's a huge benefit, and the fact that some random FLGS goes out of business is irrelevant to you.

 Yonan wrote:
It was a real classy move of GWs breaking up the relationship betwen Beasts of War and Wayland Games too, if I recall that correctly. But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.

They are not just an online retailer though Yonan? I've attended several of their events and product launches - they're always well laid out, presented, with a good turn-out, and I'm going to be attending more.

Yeah they're not just online, but that doesn't stop them copping flak for having a great online storefront.

I hope the sarcasm was evident in my post Peregrine, it can be hard to tell sometimes hehe. You described me exactly by the way - I don't play at stores, I play at home(s) and clubs, so go for the cheapest possible from online discounters around the world.

 RatBot wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:

I believe that in-store gaming in an important value-add that B&M stores offer (or SHOULD offer) and many people value that. Loyalty to a game store is something that should not be dismissed.

This. I'll happily pay a couple of bucks above online discount prices to support my FLGS, since my FLGS also provides me with space, tables, and terrain I can use for free (or, if you prefer, the cost of using those is bundled into the stuff I buy). In fact, if I want something obscure and/or not typically carried by my FLGS, my first step is not to immediately buy it online, but to ask if the store can order it for me (which they usually can). It also helps that the staff are good people. If, however, the store didn't have gaming tables or anything and was literally just a place to buy things and then I was expected to play at home or a friends' house, and/or the staff were all a bunch of slack-jawed donkey-caves, well, then I'd be buying online.

That's what I do. I buy from the store. They give so much more service than anything online can. They have picked up a few things that they didn't sell, but was able to order it for me at a fair price. While I may pay a few bucks more for something than online stores, it's always nice to know, I can always have one place to shop at. Call me old fashion, always nice to buy now, get now and not worry about if it will be delivered in the mail or not.

There is no moral or ethical obligation for anyone to buy anything from anywhere. Customers should be able to make the choice on any criteria that they themselves wish, without having to justify it anywhere to anyone else.

rich1231 wrote:
There is no moral or ethical obligation for anyone to buy anything from anywhere. Customers should be able to make the choice on any criteria that they themselves wish, without having to justify it anywhere to anyone else.

Who said there was?

It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

 insaniak wrote:
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

And it likely is a good thing to do - at least if you want the store to stay around.

But trying to dictate that others do what you feel should be done... is problematic at best.

So, if I play at a store then I will buy at the store - most likely something every trip, even if it is only a pot of paint.

But I am not going to say that you must do the same, just that it would be a nice thing to do.

The Auld Grump

 insaniak wrote:
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options. Do they charge for game space? Do they eliminate space? My local owner says he can make a lot more money by eliminating the space and stocking more games. I don't believe this. The MTG players will go to the only other store in town and the mini players will probably disband or at the very least, form a club and play at the local college. All the while, they will move exclusively to online discount stores and build tables for $50 a piece and call it a day.

Stores need space, players need to support their stores to maintain that space. I know I am not a charity and if I had a store I wouldn't do it for a loss anymore than my local owner would.

My OP was mostly focused on whether GW's retailer practices are actually as good as my owner believes, and whether he could also offer discounts and entive people to buy more. There are two things that tend to get my wallet out... a perceived deal and availability. I know I am not the only impulse buyer out here, and even if I didn't get the 20-30% off that I can often get online, if I got say, 10% regularly and things were on the shelves I would be more likely to spend MORE. As it is, I look at a box of Dire Avengers and sigh at paying $7 per model. I mean, srsly.

There is really no easy answer, but it hit me as an interesting discussion because online discounts are a thing, and so is game store loyalty for those who use the facilities and want to continue doing so.

 Moktor wrote:
This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options.

Indeed they do. But, frankly, that's the store's problem, not the players'.

Providing gaming space is a marketing tool, just like advertising, or giving out coupons for freebies. If that marketing investment doesn't pay off, then absolutely it is up to the store to find a more cost-effective way to entice customers to open their wallets.

But making use of gaming space provided for no charge no more obliges you to support the business than, say, Starbucks giving you a voucher for a free coffee obliges you to return later and pay for another, or watching a Toys'r'Us ad on TV obliges you to then go into the store and buy something.


If you value the service enough to spend money there, then good for you. But that's your choice, not a moral requirement.

Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.

Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.

What your FLGS is talking about is shutting down competition through borderline legal means rather than trying to simply beat them. That is always bad for us, the customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your owner thinks he can make more money by removing gaming space then honestly I'd just say he is a bad business man or doesn't understand his market.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.

Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.

Selling online would be another, but for some reason GW US seems to think that allowing trade accounts to compete with those businesses that have found ways around the 'no shopping carts' and regional sales rules would be a bad thing...

 Moktor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options. Do they charge for game space? Do they eliminate space? My local owner says he can make a lot more money by eliminating the space and stocking more games. I don't believe this. The MTG players will go to the only other store in town and the mini players will probably disband or at the very least, form a club and play at the local college. All the while, they will move exclusively to online discount stores and build tables for $50 a piece and call it a day.

Stores need space, players need to support their stores to maintain that space. I know I am not a charity and if I had a store I wouldn't do it for a loss anymore than my local owner would.

My OP was mostly focused on whether GW's retailer practices are actually as good as my owner believes, and whether he could also offer discounts and entive people to buy more. There are two things that tend to get my wallet out... a perceived deal and availability. I know I am not the only impulse buyer out here, and even if I didn't get the 20-30% off that I can often get online, if I got say, 10% regularly and things were on the shelves I would be more likely to spend MORE. As it is, I look at a box of Dire Avengers and sigh at paying $7 per model. I mean, srsly.

There is really no easy answer, but it hit me as an interesting discussion because online discounts are a thing, and so is game store loyalty for those who use the facilities and want to continue doing so.

If gamers aren't loyal to a store, there's going to be a reason. Gamers won't spurn a store for no reason.

Maybe they don't stock their preferred game enough. Maybe they don't have open gaming days for that game on days when they're free. Maybe they aren't pricing competitively (not only to online stores, but to other local stores too). Maybe there are clubs around that are better suited to the gaming. Maybe they don't like the community the store fosters.

If a store is losing customers, instead of whining online and/or to remaining customers about the evils of online stores, they should be asking customers (particularly lost customers if they see them again) why they left, and figure out how to get them back.

 -Loki- wrote:


If gamers aren't loyal to a store, there's going to be a reason. Gamers won't spurn a store for no reason.

Maybe they don't stock their preferred game enough. Maybe they don't have open gaming days for that game on days when they're free. Maybe they aren't pricing competitively (not only to online stores, but to other local stores too). Maybe there are clubs around that are better suited to the gaming. Maybe they don't like the community the store fosters.

If a store is losing customers, instead of whining online and/or to remaining customers about the evils of online stores, they should be asking customers (particularly lost customers if they see them again) why they left, and figure out how to get them back.

+1
It sounds like this store is operating in a similar fashion to GW themselves, expecting people to be perfectly ok with buying at full retail and not asking what their customers want, and we can clearly see that is failing for GW.

 insaniak wrote:
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.

Yep. In this thread I was called arrogant and disingenuous for giving reasons to buy online or ask for a discount to buy locally to support a store.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.

Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.

What your FLGS is talking about is shutting down competition through borderline legal means rather than trying to simply beat them. That is always bad for us, the customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your owner thinks he can make more money by removing gaming space then honestly I'd just say he is a bad business man or doesn't understand his market.

Well, you know, it was just been working so dashingly well for GW that everyone wants to tap in to this new paradigm in the marketplace. Customer service is just so otiose.

Its states it the contracts now that you cannot have an online store without having a physical one, they then give parameters for what a store is. So all online stores have physical space and most of them have gaming areas. This came in about the same time as they prohibited the selling of spare parts.

XT, Good vocab exercise for us with the 'otiose'

 moogleman94 wrote:
Its states it the contracts now that you cannot have an online store without having a physical one, they then give parameters for what a store is. So all online stores have physical space and most of them have gaming areas. This came in about the same time as they prohibited the selling of spare parts.

In the US, trade accounts aren't allowed to have online stores at all.

I believe the UK has a rule requiring a physical store, and Oz used to have that rule but currently doesn't.

Moktor, thanks for sharing this piece of information. Thanks everyone for being so civil as well. This perspective is one of the (many) pieces of the puzzle of "what does GW think it's doing" that I've been trying to figure out.

Like many here, I'm not sure I share his view, but then again, I don't run a retail store like he does. I am aware of the producer - distributor - retailer - consumer chain and it's nearly impossible to please them all at the same time. I'm also reminded that Tom Kirby, the exiting CEO of GW, was himself a distributor...the guy who sells to retailers like the person Moktor spoke to. Well, at least he made someone happy.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I only buy at my local FLGS. Sure, I could find it cheaper, but I use their tables and enjoy the community there. I've been all over and it's by far my favorite place. They have an on-line store, "Spiky Bits," and the FLGS is "FTW Games." Fantastic place. At least eight gaming tables and even more for MTG. (which I don't play.)
If they don't have something, I order it through them. They have a membership where you can build up store credit and buy/sell used stuff. Love it.

We had the Amorous Armadillo Game Shoppe and they did a quarterly bazaar. You told the shop owner you needed some space in the shop for the day and you could sell your minis, games, etc. for the day. At the end of the day, you got store credit for your sales. Win win for both sides.

So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?

And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?

And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.

The approaches are very different. PP tries to sell product by making the product itself good. The tight ruleset, tournament support, and even their volunteer programs make for a far superior GAME (and the hobby/model quality is catching up, fast). GW, OTOH, markets for profit, and will do what they can to make retailers happy (when it suits them), or simply make "pretty" products. Yes, their models often look VERY good, but as a gamer myself, all that eyecandy does nothing when there are constant wars about balance... whether it is within a codex, across the armies, or even rules so vague that no one ever really knows what they are trying to say.

Oops, starting to rant.

The truth is, people like me (and many of the posters that frequent this site) don't really hate 40k or any other GW product, per se. We just feel burned when the company that makes a product that we really WANT to like does stupid crap (like all the things that get argued here daily) and we are forced to suck it up and pay the man, or find another product elsewhere. The thing that *I* am gathering from their marketing policies is that rather than fix their game, they would rather incentivize local retailers to peddle their (GW) wares over another product. I don't think GW has ever, in their entire history, had real competition until now. They can look at the practices of other games, whether it be W/H, Infinity, Malifaux, or even Mercs, X-Wing, etc... and draw from them. There is a REASON people are leaving, look at the competition, and make some adjustment to your own product, instead of basically using muscle to try desperately to maintain market share.

How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?

 Moktor wrote:

How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?

Apparently, You can charge 80$ for a model if your ruleset is super balanced and that 80$ model is 1/3rd of your total basic army. You don't need to actually make the model cheaper.

That is the thing, while people complain about the prices, they are gladly paying the exact same prices per model because they feel like they are getting a 'better' gaming experience. So if GW made a rule set which was competitive, balanced and worked at levels of 750 points, apparently the models cost would no longer be a factor.