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Also if they are trying for a more distinct protectable ip then the issue is, are GW capable of producing that?

Looking at the new nagash stuff we see WOW and DnD influences being drawn on. If they want it to be different and protectable they can't simply rely on someone else's already established tropes. You can't simply make everything more steampunk that's already covered. You can't makes elves more fantasy future tech that's already covered. If you make races more primal/low tech you start falling back into historical realms.

So where will this new protectable IP come from and will it be any good. There has been some fairly lamentable fluff written over recent years. Are they simply going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water?

To completely rewrite the fantasy would woot using generic non-protectable tropes would be a huge challenge. Are GW up to it?

I wouldn't bet on it.

I'm not the biggest fan of the static timelines either, but if GW's ideas for changing things up include axing factions then I'd prefer they don't bother. 40k/WHF both cost way too much time and money to just watch your favorite faction disappear, for no other reason than the sake of changing something.

GW is letting the grimdark ooze into their brains and corrupt everything they own. If they brought Blood Bowl back now, having a losing average for a season would result in the entire destruction of the player's race!

It's just too much, they're trying for too dark and too grand and too every-moment-is-pivotal, and I just don't think it's going to help WHFB in the long run.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Also if they are trying for a more distinct protectable ip then the issue is, are GW capable of producing that?

Looking at the new nagash stuff we see WOW and DnD influences being drawn on. If they want it to be different and protectable they can't simply rely on someone else's already established tropes. You can't simply make everything more steampunk that's already covered. You can't makes elves more fantasy future tech that's already covered. If you make races more primal/low tech you start falling back into historical realms.

If the transcript from the recent Chapterhouse case is anything to go by, GW's approach is to emulate other peoples' ideas and then claim them as their own. As you said, the new Nagash stuff screams World of Warcraft in a really extreme way. I don't feel that is explicitly bad, it's just pathetic when considered relative to their claims about IP theft. But anyone who's been in this hobby for any amount of time already knows that GW's management is pretty much full of BS.

Not to continue to derail the thread, but are there any instances of GW actions in the last 5-10 years where they innovated seamlessly to new technology or social mores? Just like Apple, they've become the big lumbering dinosaur of their field.

Eh, creative IPs that belong to big players don't have to actually be ironclad, they just need to appear like that. Distinctiveness beats actual visual innovation 9 out of 10 times outside of a court room and the whole game is concentrated on how not to get to the court room stage with anything that comes up.

I'm one of those people that loathe the fact that the 40k and Fantasy settings have remained undeveloped for years. While I haven't insisted they advance forwards, they do need to expand the setting somewhere, whether it be a "historical" epoch or advancing the clock.

I'm quite glad they are going forwards with Fantasy (and truth be told, Fantasy's setting has far fewer holes in its history to otherwise fill like 40k, so the only way to really go is forwards), but I'm also not ignorant to why GW might be doing this:

Desperation.

It's no secret Fantasy is the much weaker IP sales wise, the reasons for this are legion from obscene price to play to extremely long release cycle in favour of 40k, or the the fact that it's arguably less unique than 40k or how Sci-Fi has, at present, a broader appeal than Fantasy and less competition.

GW obviously isn't willing to give up on the IP just yet, but it, at present, is focused on the cheapest possible way, for them, to "fix" Fantasy. Many players choose GW over their competition due to the setting; their rulesets are some of the worst out there (save for the old Specialist Games, Gothic, Necromunda and the rest are still fantastic mechanically), but with such rich settings offered in so many formats (though the video games have been flagging in quality as of late), the games have a draw their competition generally lacks. Knowing the fluff is their biggest strength, they're hoping that by changing things up and moving things along, they'll drum up some enthusiasm (which is certainly true amidst my group). Additionally, they did throw the bit in there about being able to build an army with 50% Lords and 50% Heroes, and while herohammer is the laziest way to minimize the insane price creep of Fantasy, it does offer a solution to those vexed by $100+ core units worth maybe 200 points.

What makes me nervous though is the idea of 9th edition coming out. 7th 40k is an absolute disaster, and I feel no desire to play it anymore. It is mechanically broken, with many elements standing in the way of having any sort of fun with massive imbalances; it's a monument to GW just not caring. Right now, 8th Edition's rules are only really hampered by Steadfast and Horde being a little too decisive, and Army Book magic items tend to be pretty mediocre compared to basic rulebook ones. The game is much more tactical than 40k, largely owing to its movement mechanics, and with diverse factions there isn't the same level of army imbalance as 40k; Daemons are a bit slowed, and High Elves can go a bit silly on the magic and Dwarf Gunlines are rather devestating, but nothing to the same degree of trying to play anything that isn't Guard or Daemons against Eldar, or trying to play Tyranids.

Ideally, they'd only really weak the core ruleset for Fantasy and followthrough on their fluff changeup; kill some more characters with awful old models, release new ones to take their place, change the setting's balance of power, and if they're really adventurous, release a model range from one of the many unrepresented factions. Maybe even repackage core choices to include more models per box without a massive price increase so people might actually build new Fantasy armies that aren't included in the starter.

Of course, this is GW, and I fully expect the worst.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm one of those people that loathe the fact that the 40k and Fantasy settings have remained undeveloped for years. While I haven't insisted they advance forwards, they do need to expand the setting somewhere, whether it be a "historical" epoch or advancing the clock.

I'm quite glad they are going forwards with Fantasy (and truth be told, Fantasy's setting has far fewer holes in its history to otherwise fill like 40k, so the only way to really go is forwards), but I'm also not ignorant to why GW might be doing this:

Desperation.

It's no secret Fantasy is the much weaker IP sales wise, the reasons for this are legion from obscene price to play to extremely long release cycle in favour of 40k, or the the fact that it's arguably less unique than 40k or how Sci-Fi has, at present, a broader appeal than Fantasy and less competition.

GW obviously isn't willing to give up on the IP just yet, but it, at present, is focused on the cheapest possible way, for them, to "fix" Fantasy. Many players choose GW over their competition due to the setting; their rulesets are some of the worst out there (save for the old Specialist Games, Gothic, Necromunda and the rest are still fantastic mechanically), but with such rich settings offered in so many formats (though the video games have been flagging in quality as of late), the games have a draw their competition generally lacks. Knowing the fluff is their biggest strength, they're hoping that by changing things up and moving things along, they'll drum up some enthusiasm (which is certainly true amidst my group). Additionally, they did throw the bit in there about being able to build an army with 50% Lords and 50% Heroes, and while herohammer is the laziest way to minimize the insane price creep of Fantasy, it does offer a solution to those vexed by $100+ core units worth maybe 200 points.

What makes me nervous though is the idea of 9th edition coming out. 7th 40k is an absolute disaster, and I feel no desire to play it anymore. It is mechanically broken, with many elements standing in the way of having any sort of fun with massive imbalances; it's a monument to GW just not caring. Right now, 8th Edition's rules are only really hampered by Steadfast and Horde being a little too decisive, and Army Book magic items tend to be pretty mediocre compared to basic rulebook ones. The game is much more tactical than 40k, largely owing to its movement mechanics, and with diverse factions there isn't the same level of army imbalance as 40k; Daemons are a bit slowed, and High Elves can go a bit silly on the magic and Dwarf Gunlines are rather devestating, but nothing to the same degree of trying to play anything that isn't Guard or Daemons against Eldar, or trying to play Tyranids.

Ideally, they'd only really weak the core ruleset for Fantasy and followthrough on their fluff changeup; kill some more characters with awful old models, release new ones to take their place, change the setting's balance of power, and if they're really adventurous, release a model range from one of the many unrepresented factions. Maybe even repackage core choices to include more models per box without a massive price increase so people might actually build new Fantasy armies that aren't included in the starter.

Of course, this is GW, and I fully expect the worst.

This kind of view has always fascinated me, because I find it completely alien. If I start finding something stale or uninteresting, I put it aside either permanently or just until it appeals to me again, I don't even consider hoping that the company providing the product change all the things that attracted me to it in the first place - I might have begun to find them dull, but they're still the qualities that define the thing, and others shouldn't be deprived of the chance to experience what I enjoyed just because I've tired of it.

Fantasy isn't selling well for mechanical and financial reasons, drastically changing the fluff will drive away as many people as it excites, and the whole "End Times" stunt just seems like GW making yet another "short-term sales boost of new shiny will temporarily outweigh loss of players due to the changes" move.

 Yodhrin wrote:


This kind of view has always fascinated me, because I find it completely alien. If I start finding something stale or uninteresting, I put it aside either permanently or just until it appeals to me again, I don't even consider hoping that the company providing the product change all the things that attracted me to it in the first place - I might have begun to find them dull, but they're still the qualities that define the thing, and others shouldn't be deprived of the chance to experience what I enjoyed just because I've tired of it.

Fantasy isn't selling well for mechanical and financial reasons, drastically changing the fluff will drive away as many people as it excites, and the whole "End Times" stunt just seems like GW making yet another "short-term sales boost of new shiny will temporarily outweigh loss of players due to the changes" move.

The point I made earlier in my post is just that; it's basically a short term stunt, focused on the cheapest thing GW can change in an attempt to increase interest; the fluff. They're not desperate enough to change their business model or the mechanical issues present in either system yet, but the fluff costs them little, and if they're not getting people enough people into the game at present, the risks of alienating some people for advancing the timeline simply isn't significant to them. They won't axe a whole faction as that will alienate people and cost sales, but changing the setting by moving the clock forwards isn't a bad idea objectively. Locally, it's certainly having an effect, but again, as I mentioned earlier, how much of that can really be atributed to them making the setting active again, or just how bad 40k has become I honestly can't say.

Granted, they're not doing it as well as they could, but honestly, this is their first attempt to actually advance the setting of either flagship product since, when, the Tau were released? If they were smart and recognized other products existed, they'd see historicals function perfectly well with "era" systems in their games. GW's settings are well enough developed to support that, and allow them to move both forwards and backwards without pissing off the grognards, but of course, it won't happen as they're incredibly lazy and incompetent.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm one of those people that loathe the fact that the 40k and Fantasy settings have remained undeveloped for years. While I haven't insisted they advance forwards, they do need to expand the setting somewhere, whether it be a "historical" epoch or advancing the clock.

I find the static nature of 40k fluff very strange from the standpoint that almost ALL of the codices from 5th -> now speak of the final battle between chaos and mortals, etc, etc.. Even the Horus Heresy books as far back as Fulgrim talk specifically about the warp returning the lost Primarchs so that they can do battle once more. Yet.. nothing happens in the game world. On the one hand they need to advance the story in an ADULT way not the horrible manner in which they are currently writing fluff (IE the worthless writing in pretty much all new codices). but on the other hand, why does advancing the fluff ONLY point to a final battle? Can't there be simply.. an ongoing story without the need to jump directly to the end game?

Although I suppose they could make the final battle last about 15 real years..

Re: the Nagash book... thats the best written GW publication I've ever read, and im including Forge World books in that.

It doesn't seem like something that could have been rushed out of desperation.

 Micky wrote:
Re: the Nagash book... thats the best written GW publication I've ever read, and im including Forge World books in that.

It doesn't seem like something that could have been rushed out of desperation.

It is very well written, I genuinely enjoyed it, I mean, hell, I'm actually rooting for Vlad von Carstein, and I hate vampires. Certainly more sophisticated than good ol' Murderfang. But desperation doesn't imply necessarily imply rushing out a product. I'm referring more to GW realizing Fantasy as a line is failing, and they were looking for something to try and right the sinking ship so to speak, and out of the options they had; major price restructure, re-done rulset or new fluff, fluff is the easiest, cheapest method, and significantly faster than designing, testing, editing and producing a new ruleset. It is, quite simply, the cheapest short-term fix they could do, though I do genuinely hope that the standard of writing in Nagash will extend to other publications; I can't stomach the recent codex fluff, and there hasn't been more than paragraph of fluff newer than the last decade in the codexes. If they follow this up with something to control the insane prices of fantasy and refine the ruleset without 7thing it, I'll gladly eat my hat (and it's a nice hat), but GW has taught me to be very wary about hope.

D&D 4th edition all but tanked that brand, so WotC was left with an option from Hasbro: fix it or it's gone. History and nostalgia aside, it needed something to make it exciting again. The launch of 5th edition has been a huge success.

Warhammer Fantasy went from the #2 table top game to #8 in less than 2.5 years. While 40k is still turning a huge profit, Fantasy is literally in the red. GW is therefore left with a decision: fix it or it's gone.

I haven't played Fantasy - except in spots to try each edition - for about 15 years. 8th edition is practically unplayable. Dwellers and Purple Suns taking out 1200 points of models in one go; laser-guided cannons shooting dragons 6 times their cost with one roll (and thus rendering mounted lords irrelevant); 600 point casters blowing themselves up on turn 1; piles of worthless models in bricks of 100 doing no damage to elite units, but still winning combat because of ranks, a flag, and a trumpet. Not to mention the huge cost of entry because of said blocks of 100 models.

This End Times stuff has me excited. The Nagash product has been FANTASTIC. I love the idea of character-driven narratives supported by a few smaller units. It's a little WarmaHordes-esque, sure, but it means fewer models and thus a lower cost of entry.

Once I see a few more of the End Times books, and the potential 9th edition, I'll be getting back into it for sure if this direction continues.

Latest Rumours on next end times book-
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/09/40kwfb-chaos-gods-are-imminent.html

It looks like 40K chaos fans may be getting a holiday treat!

Latest info on the Endtimes Chaos release: 9-17-2014

- 6 Week Release
- 1 week for each chaos god
- 2 weeks for the campaign specific minis

- I would expect the chaos god weeks to include dual-use kits for 40k/wfb (plastic major daemons are most often mentioned)
- The other kits are probably Archaon and his Lieutenants, as we saw with the Nagash wave.
- Fancy End Times bookset of course.
- Starts after Dark Eldar, so Oct 4th.

And the previous stuff from last week:

Steve the Warboss: 9-13-2014

The book includes, for example (what I know);
-New Archaon Profile
-Cult of Slaanesh for Dark Elves with a new Unit and Chaos Demons
-Chaos Mono-List for Nurgle with Warriors and Demons united
-New Nurgle Chaos Champion (Valnir Aesling?)
-There is a picture with Nurgle Demons and a different looking great unclean one (I'm not sure, new model or convension)
-Some old Chaos Warrior Chars returns (van Horstmann, Arbaal, and Aekold Helbrass)
Ok, that makes more sense. A giant end of the year Chaos-palooza bit with many kits being usable in 40K.

6 weeks from Oct 4th will take us into mid November, and into the holiday season. Perhaps we will see Blood angels slipped into there, or maybe its just another year of Hobbit/Terrain/holiday season bundles.

 brassangel wrote:

...8th edition is practically unplayable. Dwellers and Purple Suns taking out 1200 points of models in one go; laser-guided cannons shooting dragons 6 times their cost with one roll (and thus rendering mounted lords irrelevant); 600 point casters blowing themselves up on turn 1; piles of worthless models in bricks of 100 doing no damage to elite units, but still winning combat because of ranks, a flag, and a trumpet. Not to mention the huge cost of entry because of said blocks of 100 models.

Nailed it.

Having to spend around £100 on two units of core is ridonk.

Units should be per box, so a unit of say, Empire halberdiers should function well with 20 models. I suppose you could field it like that currently, but it wouldn't last long. Same with Blood Crushers and Demigryphs. Three per box, but the magic number seems to be 4 per unit.

Honestly didn't see daemons coming next (I don't check rumors often). Didn't they just get new models? What can we be expecting really?

shauni55 wrote:
Honestly didn't see daemons coming next (I don't check rumors often). Didn't they just get new models? What can we be expecting really?

The Greater Daemons have been needing to be redone in plastic for years.

MaxT wrote:

shauni55 wrote:
Honestly didn't see daemons coming next (I don't check rumors often). Didn't they just get new models? What can we be expecting really?

The Greater Daemons have been needing to be redone in plastic for years.

Good point! Really good time of year to do them too! Rotting Pumpking Great unclean one!

Personally I haven't bought a single thing for fantasy in 3 years. Until I bought the Nagash End Times books. And they were awesome. I don't know if I'm going to be playing fantasy anytime soon but publications of that quality are something I'll buy. I'm looking forward to the next installment. I might not be buying models until all of it shakes out but they'll get the $80-$85 out of me for each end times installment (assuming it doesn't run past 3-4).

The books are so well done that I pretty much HAVE to buy all of them, despite the fact that I don't play chaos in fantasy.

I'm really hoping that the Dwarf slayer army will be making a comeback though! Goblin Hewer and Doomseekers with the brotherhood of Grungni for the win!

I'm also starting a TS army in 40K, so plastic greater demons are a total win/win!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Personally I haven't bought a single thing for fantasy in 3 years. Until I bought the Nagash End Times books. And they were awesome. I don't know if I'm going to be playing fantasy anytime soon but publications of that quality are something I'll buy. I'm looking forward to the next installment. I might not be buying models until all of it shakes out but they'll get the $80-$85 out of me for each end times installment (assuming it doesn't run past 3-4).

It's stuff like this that is a pleasure to read, a long term, jaded player getting excited over new products. I always say I'll just as happily praise GW as criticise, if I feel they warrant it, and in this case, they most certainly do!

Personally, while I'm not a WHFB a player, and simply don't have the resources to start a new system right now, I'd love to have some new additions to my 40K Daemons soon. Sadly, Larry Vela has an awful track record, and I'm fairly sure he has a) been banging the drum over new Chaos stuff for a while, and keeps moving the date when time makes him wrong and b) is simply using logical extrapolation of the Nagash release to make plausible rumours. Still, new stuff for Chaos IS inevitable, so why not in time for Xmas?

So, any more word from Father Gabe about this? It's past the 13th, and we have essentially verification of Dark Eldar for this month, right? So, where does that put things for WHFB?

 Tangent wrote:
So, any more word from Father Gabe about this? It's past the 13th, and we have essentially verification of Dark Eldar for this month, right? So, where does that put things for WHFB?

Well was looking around the web today because I don't care for any more 40k releases and want my Skaven to come out (ill be waiting years I bet lol) but from what I found there is going to be the new Archeon end times rules/book model maybe?
There is also apparentl going to be new plastic kits for all the chaos deamon gods I believe. The date said Oct3 preorders.

No idea if that is accurate at all but probably not lol

 chiefbigredman wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
So, any more word from Father Gabe about this? It's past the 13th, and we have essentially verification of Dark Eldar for this month, right? So, where does that put things for WHFB?

Well was looking around the web today because I don't care for any more 40k releases and want my Skaven to come out (ill be waiting years I bet lol) but from what I found there is going to be the new Archeon end times rules/book model maybe?
There is also apparentl going to be new plastic kits for all the chaos deamon gods I believe. The date said Oct3 preorders.

No idea if that is accurate at all but probably not lol

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/613672.page#7211397

Literally 9 posts up this page.