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I played against a GK list with Ex Officio formation today. The Assassin data slate says the vindicare rifle is AP2. It also has the exitus ammo option which means it can fire special ammo types. If that rifle is firing special ammo (hellfire wounding on a 2+, etc) does it retain the AP2 from the rifle's non-special ammo?

The only parallels I can think of offhand is sternguard and their special ammo - they use the ammo profile when firing special ammo, not the bolter's. The TFC/whirlwind also explicitly define the AP of each ammo type as well.

I don't have the slate so I can't RAW/RAI it in detail, but what are others seeing? Is there a RAW saying it gets that anywhere explicitly vs "derp of course they get it derp", like in the special ammo box description on the CSM wargear pages?

Sternguard ammo specifically gives you an entire weapon profile when you use it. Vindicare ammo just adds special rules to the actual gun.

I agree with posted above.

If that means anything for you, I can share a story that may clarify how such rules interact.



Similarly, if your rules state that Hellfire ammo makes you wound on 2+ when used, you use your weapon profile and just add a rule that said weapon now wounds on 2+ in addition to everything its profile states.

Away from the books, stupid work, but if I am remembering the formatting properly it is not possible to treat the Exitus Ammunition as an entirely different Weapon Profile.
It is not just the lack of a listed Armour Piercing score that could cause some confusion, that could easily be argued as AP - which the Rules have allowances for, but the lack of other vital information. Only one of the specialized ammo types inform us what value to make our To Wound checks against. It is the Sniper Special Rule on the original Weapon Profile which informs us what value to Wound on by default, and that one ammo exists to lower this value, clearly indicating that we still use the Weapon Profile itself.

If we are using the original Weapon Profile to verify a To Wound Roll, why would we no use it to determine Armour Saves?

The Exitus Ammo is a special rule of the weapons themselves (both the sniper rifle and the pistol).

That special rule merely allows you to select one of three possible additional rules to affect the shot of that weapon.

Exitus Ammo: Each time a Vindicare Assassin fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the three following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunition’s rules to that shot:

 Shandara wrote:
The Exitus Ammo is a special rule of the weapons themselves (both the sniper rifle and the pistol).

That special rule merely allows you to select one of three possible additional rules to affect the shot of that weapon.

Exitus Ammo: Each time a Vindicare Assassin fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the three following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunition’s rules to that shot:

You said it grants "additional rules" but the RAW quote doesn't actually say that - it says apply one of the ammo's rules, not to add them to the rifle itself. Since the RAW doesn't mention AP values, as with TFC/Sternguard special ammo, by RAW it doesn't have any. /

IMO it's still ambiguous (GW ambiguous? Shock of shocks!) without something worded better elsewhere or an errata. I'll grant the intention is probably AP2 etc, and that's how I'll let GK players (or whoever) run them, but that laxness in the rules is irritating.

I think of them as mini-monstrous creature or fleshy vindicator. Four is scary, but they are at least somewhat reasonably costed so I won't begrudge them AP2. I will deny them all a free FNP next time though

By that logic the game breaks, cause two of the Ammo Types do not have the ability to successfully complete the To Wound portion of the equation.

In any case, the exact wording of the Special Rule is thus:
Each time a (Removed) fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the (removed) following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunitions Rules to that shot

The model in question is still firing the original Weapon, the Special Rule requires it, and then the Rule found below is simply applied to any shots generated by the act of firing said weapon. Nothing about applying a Special Rule to a shot changes any of the values already found on that Shot by default, nor does it even over-write any other existing Special Rules which may be located on that Shot without specific instructions to do so. Therefore, we can not conclude that such occurs in this situation and will instead follow the default instructions to determine these things.

We look at the Profile of the Weapon Fired and use the value listed within, assuming no other Special Rules change said value.

It does not state to replace the rules either. Apply must be addition here

Right in conclusion it's always ap2" and your choice of ammo is how you wound. Either 4 plus, 2 plus, or 2 plus. Unless of coarse your target is tough 9 or 10 then it's a 3 or 4 plus not 2 plus on the str 10 shot, at ap2.

Lungpickle,
Where are you getting those numbers from?

The S10 is only against Vehicles.
I don't get why so many people get that wrong, it couldn't be written more clearly unless it was in caps with a dozen exclamation marks.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
The Exitus Ammo is a special rule of the weapons themselves (both the sniper rifle and the pistol).

That special rule merely allows you to select one of three possible additional rules to affect the shot of that weapon.

Exitus Ammo: Each time a Vindicare Assassin fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the three following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunition’s rules to that shot:

You said it grants "additional rules" but the RAW quote doesn't actually say that - it says apply one of the ammo's rules, not to add them to the rifle itself. Since the RAW doesn't mention AP values, as with TFC/Sternguard special ammo, by RAW it doesn't have any. /

IMO it's still ambiguous (GW ambiguous? Shock of shocks!) without something worded better elsewhere or an errata. I'll grant the intention is probably AP2 etc, and that's how I'll let GK players (or whoever) run them, but that laxness in the rules is irritating.

I think of them as mini-monstrous creature or fleshy vindicator. Four is scary, but they are at least somewhat reasonably costed so I won't begrudge them AP2. I will deny them all a free FNP next time though

This is really not a case of GW being unclear at all. If you don't use the weapon profile for Ap2 you can't use the weapon profile for any other characteristics in which case I ask you for the following information on those special ammo shots:

Range
Number of shots
Weapon Type

Where are you getting that information for the special ammo? Also note how the Exitus ammo requires you to use the special ammo unlike the Sternguard who can fire normal boltguns.

I second the above. I don't think "apply rules" means "ignore anything even remotely relevant to the task at hand and then use these rules in the vacuum".

RAI? I agree too as I already pointed out, but RAW, it is ambiguous to me because it is not explicitly listed as every other alt-fire weapon I can think of is listed (Sternguard, etc).

I already conceded that that was HIWPI, but I'm not familiar with ANY other weapon that does that so I was hoping for a swift GW Errate/FAQ (Ha!) or a counter example with a clear consensus. The way the assassin is point costed I'm ok with it and agree RAI, but if the assassin was 50 points, I'd assume there was no way they mean to make something poison and AP 2 as well - more of a "pick from these options" list.

It's not like an extra 16 text characters would have increased the price of the PDF... :p

Raw it is not, in any way shape or form, ambiguous.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
RAI? I agree too as I already pointed out, but RAW, it is ambiguous to me because it is not explicitly listed as every other alt-fire weapon I can think of is listed (Sternguard, etc).

I already conceded that that was HIWPI, but I'm not familiar with ANY other weapon that does that so I was hoping for a swift GW Errate/FAQ (Ha!) or a counter example with a clear consensus. The way the assassin is point costed I'm ok with it and agree RAI, but if the assassin was 50 points, I'd assume there was no way they mean to make something poison and AP 2 as well - more of a "pick from these options" list.

It's not like an extra 16 text characters would have increased the price of the PDF... :p

We're not talking RaI we're talking RaW. If you believe you don't use the weapon profile for Ap2 you can't use the weapon profile for any other characteristics in which case I ask you for the following information on those special ammo shots: 

Range 
Number of shots 
Weapon Type 

Please answer the question.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Raw it is not, in any way shape or form, ambiguous.

Respectfully, I disagree. The Sternguard special ammo is, in no way, ambiguous as to the range, AP, etc. because they are all in a chart explicitly listed for each version of alternate fire mode. Every other alt fire weapon I'm aware of has such a chart as well. Is there such a chart in the Assassin digital? Because the rules I was shown didn't say "modify the base weapon stats" or "also apply these profiles" or "additionally benefit from the following" but I didn't press the issue during the game or look for a "back page" weapon profile equivalent.

This isn't a poll so there's no need to post if you just want to say "me too" (though you are free to do so). My original question is answered for RAI purposes. Nothing other than a rule quote is suitable for the RAW portion.

Again, I'm not trying to take it away from anyone, I was just hoping for an example from some other dex where is had been written (and ideally FAQed) to say yes it does to better contextualize it.

When you're told these rules apply, what makes you think the first sets of rules don't apply?

Raw it is not ambiguous, because at no point are you told to stop using the rifles ap, range, etc.

Your opinion is noted, however sufficient proof has been given to invalidate it.

Clearly you're just trolling at this point as you refuse to answer the simple questions asked.

Your concession is accepted the RaW is clear. Thetr is no ambiguity in this rule.

The Special Rule for the ammunition is applied to the shot itself.
The Shot already has Rules and Values allocated to it, from a range of sources, so without instructions telling us to remove those Rules or Values....

Jinx,

First thank you for your constructive response. I would PREFER it to have been written like every other weapon (chart+alt fire profiles), or the Smash attack, which specifically states you get Ap2 passively and you "additionally" get 2s Str on the 1A Smash.

I don't have that dex so I can't verify it myself, but that makes a bit more sense if it is worded that way.

The reason it does not have a full profile is because it is a special rule that applies to two separate weapons so could not be worded the way you want. The rule has no ambiguity in it at all. The Exitus Ammo special rule modifies how the weapon fires. It does not mention AP (which you are obsessed with) but also does not mention weapon type or range. So if we aren't getting this information from the weapon profile for AP we can't get it for range or weapon type either and neither weapon can ever be fired as we don't know the type, number of shots, range (or strength except for turbo penetrator) or indeed what other special rules apply if any.

This is why your interpretation can not be correct because you're requiring us to ignore the profile for AP but not for other information (like range, number of shots etc). So it is inconsistent with itself or makes the entire weapon entirely impossible to resolve.

Therefore as the Exitus ammo is a special rule that applies to 2 weapons the only way this works is it modifies those 2 weapons and uses their profile except for the changes it tells you to make. It doesn't mention AP therefore it doesn't modify it. As for other similar examples how about "melta" that is a special rule that applies to a weapon that does not mention AP do you assume all melta weapons are AP-?

But let me guess you're going to avoid answering the obvious questions that completely destroy your argument yet again.

FlingitNow,
RAWRAIRobblerobble already admitted to not reading the Rule in question, and that it led to an misunderstanding on what the Rule was actually doing.

He also failed to acknowledge the point made to him several times that if you don't look at the weapon profile for AP why are you looking at it for range, type, strength etc and if you're not looking at it for those things then the weapon never does anything.

If you just take a minute to read the actual rule labeled "Exitus Ammo" you'll see that it is pretty clear. You fire the weapon, (example... Rifle: 72" St X Ap 2 Heavy 1, sniper, exists ammo) and then apply the rule of the ammo of your choice (example... Turbo Penetrator: counts as St 10 vs vehicles, or does D3 wounds vs all other targets).

Thus (with the above example) against a vehicle, you would have 72" St 10 Ap 2 Heavy 1, sniper, or against anything else 72" St X Ap 2 Heavy 1, sniper, inflict D3 wounds. Same applies for the other 2 ammo types.

FlingitNow,
Maybe, but given that he admitted to the error why continue to post on it?

As I understand it, YMDC is about RAW, not RAI. See the recent Skyleap argument (which actually has an explicit RAW justification 7th btw).

I don't have the codex and the rules are not freely available online, so no I can't quote from the GK or 'nid codex. I'm not aware of any other weapon that lets you choose alternate fire profile and does not have a complete chart and no one has provided a counter example of any other weapon in the game with multiple fire options. I've already concede (in my original post) that I went with AP2 poison as RAI and HIWPI.

Meanwhile Nosferatu claims that 'nuh unh' with no RAW quotes are unhelpful to me - particularly how stringently explicit he wants Wall of Death to be in the Invisibility discussion ignoring everyone else's points or negating them with no rules quotes, so I'm already predisposed to view him poorly.

Fling, I'm not answering your questions because they are irrelevant to my RAW question. If I were TFG then HIWPI would be they don't have a range either so they can't be used. RAW, Gate of Infinity doesn't grant the Deep Strike rule to the unit, nor does it exempt units from needing to have started in reserves prior to the game. RAW, GOI only works on a psyker and unit which deep struck onto the board and can only be used to reposition them - not any units that started on the board prior to T1. That's a ridiculous interpretation, but RAW, it is accurate. GOI only says they arrive using the rules for Deep Strike, not that you place them on the board as per Deep Strike. TFG interpretation? Absolutely. RAW? Also explicitly true. I'm not your secretary and you are not mine. If you want to constructively help, great, but there's no obligation to do so. Its a free board so feel free to post, but don't think it obligates me to respond.

If the wording in the exitus ammo rule itself (I did read it, I did not see it in the half minute I skimmed it) or elsewhere to the effect of a CONJUNCTION like "they also get these bonuses" as opposed to "they use these rules" - then great, RAW and RAI agree. Even if it doesn't it won't matter to me because I'm not TFG, I was merely curious if it was more clearly defined anywhere as with every other alternate fire example.

Ah, in that case - this forum isn't a replacement for owning the rules.

When you do own them, have a read - they're astonishingly clear.

I'm predisposed to think of people disputing raw, while not having access to th rules at all, in a thread THEY STARTED, poorly as well.

Fling, I'm not answering your questions because they are irrelevant to my RAW question. If I were TFG then HIWPI would be they don't have a range either so they can't be used. RAW, Gate of Infinity doesn't grant the Deep Strike rule to the unit, nor does it exempt units from needing to have started in reserves prior to the game.RAW, GOI only works on a psyker and unit which deep struck onto the board and can only be used to reposition them - not any units that started on the board prior to T1. That's a ridiculous interpretation, but RAW, it is accurate. GOI only says they arrive using the rules for Deep Strike, not that you place them on the board as per Deep Strike. TFG interpretation? Absolutely. RAW? Also explicitly true. I'm not your secretary and you are not mine. If you want to constructively help, great, but there's no obligation to do so. Its a free board so feel free to post, but don't think it obligates me to respond. 

GoI is irrelevant but thanks for the ramble. Exitus Ammo is a special rule that applies to weapons. It modifies the weapons properties, but it does not replace the profile. Why? Because it doesn't give a replacement profile and it doesn't tell us it does replace the weapons profile. Does melta replace a weapons profile? Are you now claiming that melta weapons are all S0 Ap- with no range? What about other special rules? Do any weapons that have special rules that don't have duplicate weapon profile included in the rule make the weapon not work?

Why are you not using the weapon profile for the weapon in question ? What permission do you have to ignore the range, weapon type and Ap of the weapon? Why are you not using the 12" range the pistol type or the Ap2 (or 72", Heavy 1, Ap2 of rifle).

Ok people, time to cool it on who you view poorly and why. If you can't get along, then don't engage each other. Or better yet, engage each other constructively without taking snipe shots.