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I run my Tzeentch DP's completely naked. Just wings and level 3. I run my Slaanesh ones with just wings, level 3, and one greater for a whip.

I'd rather have the models that that 60 points per DP gets me. As it is I'm normally spending 1250 even at that rate on Slaanesh with DP's, KoS, and another FMC.

As for Fateweaver everyone understands that a CAD doesn't have to be your primary detachment anymore right? So you can pay 25pts to avoid warpstorm altogether (assuming you're allowed Come the Apoc. Allies).

 Hulksmash wrote:
I run my Tzeentch DP's completely naked. Just wings and level 3. I run my Slaanesh ones with just wings, level 3, and one greater for a whip.

I'd rather have the models that that 60 points per DP gets me. As it is I'm normally spending 1250 even at that rate on Slaanesh with DP's, KoS, and another FMC.

As for Fateweaver everyone understands that a CAD doesn't have to be your primary detachment anymore right? So you can pay 25pts to avoid warpstorm altogether (assuming you're allowed Come the Apoc. Allies).

What would be your Primary Detachment then? The Allied Detachment specifically says it cannot be a Primary Detachment, so I assume you're talking about a formation or something of the like.

Edit: or another CAD, I suppose, but that starts getting expensive.

With CtA you could take a single inquisitor. It's not an allied detachment. Just an inquisitorial detachment. And the only requirement for that detachment is 1 HQ.

Ah, of course. A somewhat silly list, and he probably won't contribute too much if you leave him base, but I suppose it's somewhat worthwhile to ignore Warp Storm.

25pts to ignore it is nice. Alternatively you could always just bump him to level 1, hope to roll a 6 on Daemonology and otherwise just summon stuff.

Eh that is true but I don't build my lists around Chicanery.

Not saying its bad, just not something I'd do. Same reason I don't play gods that hate each other in the same army.

I like the idea of a "Sorceror" who think's he's summoned minions and keeps doing so. The very idea entertains me. Since they'll eat him when they finish with whatever they are their to destroy

I really miss Daemonic Attack rules :(

Requizen wrote:


If you have Be'lakor (or indeed any Tzeentch DP) cast Shrouding, then it forces all of them to ball up in 6" around that guy. While not bad, Nurgle doesn't have to worry about anything like that at all, each Prince can go in whatever direction he wants, which is not only more tactical but also necessary against things like Ignores Cover blast templates (hello Tau).

Don't forget that it's a 6" radius around the base though and you only need to knick the edges for the first turn. The first turn I basically move my formation straight forward, but counting from the outside edges of the far princes there is actually about a 20" span across the table for your 3 front units. Blasts are not big enough to hit multiple units like this, nor are there problems reaching either end of the board in the second turn when you don't have to stay within 6" anymore. The second turn the princes on the edges can separate as they please and reliably get into combat or reach a corner if need be.

Yeah I also don't like the possibility of getting hit with something that ignores cover so I like the added defense that the Tzeentch can bring but that's me.

Wyvern Batteries surprisingly enough can actually kill them.


Also, I've went with a cheaper no psyker Prince to fill that last slot and it worked fine because the other 2 had buff spells.

Crystal-Maze wrote:
20/40 points per DP is a lot to spend for a one sixth/one third chance at getting the FNP. Elsewise, I could end up with a 3+ save that I already paid for, a couple of offensive powers, or a pretty sword. Could the 120 points not be better spent elsewhere?

No .

 Hulksmash wrote:
With CtA you could take a single inquisitor. It's not an allied detachment. Just an inquisitorial detachment. And the only requirement for that detachment is 1 HQ.

That thought never even crossed my mind. I tip my hat to you. Now I'm considering eliminating fateweaver from my list altogether and replacing him with another prince...

Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

 Tyran wrote:
Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

It can give major boons to your army, but all of the decent potential outcomes are mirrored on the table by terrible ones. Sure, Fateweaver grents re-rolls, but its still an element of chance that some players prefer to eliminate. It just means that the player dictates more of what happens in the game, rather than letting the dice decide.

Fateweaver is very very good even without warp storm manipulation. He's simply essential in a flying mc list IMO.

I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.



It's why you don't roll your Chaos Daemon Princes rolls first, because you want to hopefully grab Invisibility on something else, then be able to go for Biomancy or Malefic.

It's more options

Lets say a Prince get's Feel No Pain and +1 Wound and it will not die

Then you have some choices because that guy is pretty buff already.

Don't roll his psychic powers till last, because if you get 2 or more other defense buffs, Invisibility or Shrouding, he can go straight Biomancy, hoping to get Feel No Pain to cast on another Daemon Prince. It's statistically almost impossible to kill a Daemon Prince w/ a 2++ reroll and a 4+ Feel No Pain.and it is impossible if he get's Invisibility on him some how. Let's say you have a weapon that wounds on a 2+, ignores cover. Your still going to have to shoot him like 60 + times to cause 1 wound.

Then you add in you have more than one of them and it just becomes a game of , do nothing and my Daemon princes fly around killing you and summoning more Daemons.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Why would you eliminate the warpstorm? I have found that it helps more than harms.

It can give major boons to your army, but all of the decent potential outcomes are mirrored on the table by terrible ones. Sure, Fateweaver grents re-rolls, but its still an element of chance that some players prefer to eliminate. It just means that the player dictates more of what happens in the game, rather than letting the dice decide.

I don't view it as a problem. The chance that something bad happens (2/3/4 result) has the same percent chance that nothing happens (7 result) or something good happens (10/11/12 result). And 2 and 3 can be mitigated by a further dice roll. Damage results have a 11.1% (Tzeentch's Fire/Khorne's Wrath) or 13.8% (Glorious Rot/Dark Prince) chance to do damage. And depending on what's in your list, that can help you more than harm you. In a mono-Daemon list, it has a much higher chance of being good than being bad. In a dual-daemon list, it about evens out, but even if a bad one is rolled only part of your army has a chance to be affected.

So, in fact, if you run a mostly mono-Daemon list, there's a higher percent chance that the Warp Storm table is more profitable for you than not. It's still chance, of course, but on the whole I think it's a perfectly fine chance. I mean, if you already are planning on allies and can make someone your Warlord/Primary Detachment, sure go for it. But to me it doesn't seem to be a necessity to work around it by any means.

That and you have the chance to roll the ability as a warlord trait to reroll it, and Fateweaver so its like welp.

I've never had it be anything but a boon.

Plus now with Cursed Earth, you can basically have a close to 3++ army if you roll the right boon on the chart and being in range of Cursed Earth it becomes a good thing.

That result is especially great when you have Tzeentch and your rerolling 1s.

Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

There is no general rule, it just comes down to how your list is constructed (and in the case of swapping rewards it depends on what you rolled, and what army you are facing like the balesword is no worth swapping for against Imperial Knights)

The best I can say is I usually take the exalted reward on the Greater Daemon because they are inherently tougher so can better afford missing a greater gift. And lesser gifts are pretty much only ever if you have spare point. I've written list where neither was the case though. It just comes down to what you army consists of.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

I'm sure someone can correct me but I am pretty sure the equation to use is

(1/6 + 1/5) =
(1/6 + 1/5 + 1/4) =

I may be incorrect though it's early and I was into my cups when I wrote that but because it's 2 separate charts that you are rolling on you would actually have to calculate the odds separately, but since the rule applies to both charts ( IE you reroll duplicates on both charts) ad hoc statement of treat them the same is fine.

Those people recommending removing fateweaver and the warp storm are crazy.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
Just starting up Daemons, running 3-4 FMC in my new proto-list.
This thread has been an excellent help for me regarding which MCs/FMCs are good for what and most/least useful, what else to bring with them, and especially regarding which psyker powers are most/least beneficial.

I've got questions regarding the rewards though. I'm getting that for most DPs the general consensus is buying 2x Greater rewards for survivability, and if you're fielding Nurgle DPs and the opponent has multiple high wound models or MCs of their own, swap a Greater for the Balesword.

But which Greater do you swap? Is the Balesword > or < than Armourbane/Fleshbane?
Which MCs to purchase Lesser Rewards for?
Which ones do you want Exalted rewards on, and more specifically where do you put which Hellforged artifacts?

Pardon my ignorance and thanks for your time!

The psychic powers and greater rewards you would take greatly depend on what your opponent is bringing. For example, a baleswoard would be good if you are going against a monstrous creature list (because it grants instant death). But the armourbane/fleshbane reward would be great if you are going against vehicles or knights. My advice is to play several games with the rewards you like, and see which work best for you. In general (I run a nurgle list) I go for feel no pain and the armourbane/fleshbane. If there are no vehicles or knights, I take a balesword. The psychic powers I like are from Biomancy. So I shoot for Iron Arm and Endurance. If already have Iron Arm and the Greater Reward that grants feel no pain, I take a roll on telepathy hoping to get Invisibilty.

There are many combinations that can work to great effect.

Yeah, I can't foresee not taking Fateweaver in a FMC list.

i have wanted to try fateweaver, but I'm too pre occupied with double bloodthirsters, and belakor.

having so much fun with this list, and i know, thirsters suck... yadayadayada...

but two of them with belakor, a bunch of dogs, and soulgrinders? yes please!

Hollismason wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think people are looking at the Greater Rewards the Wrong way. It's not that you are getting a 1/6th chance to get Feel No Pain (it's actually higher w/ 2 rolls)

It's that when you add in rolling on Biomancy your odds to get Feel No Pain increase to almost a 80%.

What?

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

Statistically one of those rolls is going to grant you some way to get feel no pain either the Greater Gift or the Rolling on Biomancy and it's going to be a greater odds of 5 rolls total so around a 80% or more if you roll all on biomancy.

It's of course different than the Gift Feel No pain as you have to cast it, but it's still feel no pain.

That's not how the odds work at all. You don't just add the fractions together to get the combined odds. If you have 5 rolls each with a 1/6 chance to get what you'd like and can reroll duplicate results it comes to about 2/3 chance of getting it. That takes into account rerolls as well by doing [1-(5/6)(4/5)(5/6)(4/5)(3/4)]

I'm sure someone can correct me but I am pretty sure the equation to use is

(1/6 + 1/5) =
(1/6 + 1/5 + 1/4) =

I may be incorrect though it's early and I was into my cups when I wrote that but because it's 2 separate charts that you are rolling on you would actually have to calculate the odds separately, but since the rule applies to both charts ( IE you reroll duplicates on both charts) ad hoc statement of treat them the same is fine.

Completely wrong. If there were a lot more instances of rolling you would add up to over 100% probability which is impossible.

Also you don't calculate powers and rewards separately (as they both contribute to the probability of your daemon rolling 4+ FNP), you just have to account for them being dependent variables

Hollismason wrote:

You have 2 rolls on a D6 chart to get feel no pain then if you choose Biomancy you have 3 more rolls. Each of those charts has something that gives you feel no pain, a 1/6 chance actually, so you roll 5 times, that makes it a 5/6ths chance to get one of those, actually higher as you have to count rerolls.

If you are trying to calculate the chance of getting at least one FnP Gift or Power, you need to calculate the chance of failing every roll and then taking that from 1 to determine the chance of not failing every single roll.

So it would be

1- (5/6 * 4/5 *5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4) = 2/3 = 66.667% chance of getting at least one FnP power or gift.

Fateweaver also allows you last ditch combos. For instance, at the ATC, an opponent of mine had a Herald star allied and Ahriman and some other things on a skyshield.

Turn one on the warp storm I rolled a 6 and a 1. I used Fateweaver's re roll to re roll the 1. I got a 5. Ahriman was forced to take a leadership check or be removed from play. Poof. Ahriman gone and I automatically kick off the game with first blood and slay the warlord. It also gave me a 4 power dice advantage.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the staff to manipulate the warp storm to my advantage. Anytime you roll a 6 on one of the dice, his re roll gives you a 50% chance of getting +1 invulnerable, killing a psyker, or getting a free unit.

I'm pretty sure I would pay 300pts for just his re roll in most games.

 Master Shake wrote:
Fateweaver also allows you last ditch combos. For instance, at the ATC, an opponent of mine had a Herald star allied and Ahriman and some other things on a skyshield.

Turn one on the warp storm I rolled a 6 and a 1. I used Fateweaver's re roll to re roll the 1. I got a 5. Ahriman was forced to take a leadership check or be removed from play. Poof. Ahriman gone and I automatically kick off the game with first blood and slay the warlord. It also gave me a 4 power dice advantage.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the staff to manipulate the warp storm to my advantage. Anytime you roll a 6 on one of the dice, his re roll gives you a 50% chance of getting +1 invulnerable, killing a psyker, or getting a free unit.

I'm pretty sure I would pay 300pts for just his re roll in most games.

I'd definitely include him if I were playing super competitive games. Unfortunately, our store is mostly casual (foot Marines, few to no Fliers, no one allies, etc, Tyranid lists with no Flyrants or even no Tyrants at all, etc), and I don't want to be the guy who brings the 300 point MC Unique that imbalances the game.

Then again, I like winning.