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The lack of a S-D weapon is condemning depending on your list. I think it matters alot how many IK's you are taking. I think if the answer is one then this guy isn't worth it. He kills hordes in assault sure, but Centurions/Thunderfires already do this in a much more efficient way.

For me, I want a Knight to counter knights and control a board section, I am leaning toward the lancer as I only have space for one knight.

The Castigator is more at home in a pure Knight army I think, giving it some much needed anti-tarpitting and/or AA.

Downside is it can't shoot at some flyer to make it jink and then charge a ground unit, due to lack of Stubbers (never thought I'd lament the lack of a heavy stubber..)

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why is your knight charging a tarpit? Or why are those tarp it's not being removed while the knight was working over something else?

And hey, evEn if you kill two tactical marines, they are testing at ld6. Good chances of running, and 50/50 of letting them get away (or can you choose not to sweep now?).

Unless the goal post moves to them being fearless now, too.

Well, I didn't want to bring up the battle sister squad with priest. Emperor help you if the superior and priest both have melta bombs, but that would only realistically happen if your opponent knew there was a knight to deal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

For me, I want a Knight to counter knights and control a board section, I am leaning toward the lancer as I only have space for one knight.

Any unit that can be tar pitted by a unit half it's price isn't going to offer board control unless it has long range fire and is controlling that area from afar. That said, I think the lancer is better than the basic knights at dealing with another superheavy and is more likely to stop incoming mechanized troops.

I don't see how the castigator isn't being tar pitted. I understand it doubles wounds but with 4 attacks thats basically 4 dead a turn if it doesnt choke. The tempest attack doesnt stack with the sword RAW and even if it does small MEQ squads don't all need to base the thing, just be 2" to a friendly, so again its gona get liek 4 a turn. Against MSU I think he sucks because you will literally never shoot his gun, or you will never assault because he has no heavy stubber.

The Castigator causes 1 additional hit for every wound it causes.

Its not doubling the wounds of the attacks it causes.


So if it kills 1 model, it deals 1 additional hit on the squad.

If it kills 2, it deals 2 additional hits.

If all 4 of its attacks wound, it causes 4 additional automatic hits.

If it charged and all 5 wound, it does 5 additional hits.


This also applies if it does its little sweep attack thingy. If it causes 10 wounds with its sweep, it does 10 additional hits on the squad.

This is in addition to its Stomps.

 Grey Templar wrote:



This also applies if it does its little sweep attack thingy. If it causes 10 wounds with its sweep, it does 10 additional hits on the squad.

This is in addition to its Stomps.

This isn't so clear. The RAW is that these don't interact together.

It has 4 attacks at ws 4 so generally it will land 2 hits and wound and gain 2 more hits. So ~4 dead a turn plus stomps on average. This is opposed to ~2 dead plus stomps from a lancer. I don't think that's that much better. Not enough to justify it over even a standard IK considering it forfeits the ability to combat other superheavies.

RAW they totally work together.

Tempest Attack inflicts an automatic hit with the weapons profile.

Deflagrate is part of its profile.

Deflagrate specifies that it kicks in when it attacks normally.

The sweep attack is in place of a normal attack. So no deflagrate, its as simple as that.

I am speaking as someone who just bought one.

 Leth wrote:
Deflagrate specifies that it kicks in when it attacks normally.

The sweep attack is in place of a normal attack. So no deflagrate, its as simple as that.

I am speaking as someone who just bought one.

According to this:www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/09/40k-imperial-knight-latest-rules-review.html
There has been some independent confirmation from forgeworld that the rules are supposed to stack. Does anyone have any confirmation of this?

 Grey Templar wrote:
RAW they totally work together.

Tempest Attack inflicts an automatic hit with the weapons profile.

Deflagrate is part of its profile.

After re-reading, I think I have to side with Leth.

"Deflagrate: After normal attacks by this weapon have been resolved..."

"Tempest Attack: Rather than attacking normally, the Knight may make a special attack..."

Unfortunately, I don't think they stack.

DoW

 Leth wrote:
Deflagrate specifies that it kicks in when it attacks normally.

The sweep attack is in place of a normal attack. So no deflagrate, its as simple as that.

I am speaking as someone who just bought one.

The rule doesn't say "when it attacks normally" it says "after normal attacks". The Castigator's sweep is an attack it can do normally so doing its sweep is normal.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Deflagrate specifies that it kicks in when it attacks normally.

The sweep attack is in place of a normal attack. So no deflagrate, its as simple as that.

I am speaking as someone who just bought one.

The rule doesn't say "when it attacks normally" it says "after normal attacks". The Castigator's sweep is an attack it can do normally so doing its sweep is normal.

The Tempest Attack specifically states that it is a "special attack," that is made "rather than attacking normally." Deflagrate states it kicks in "after normal attacks."
I do not believe the two go together, and, like Leth, I'm also someone who uses the Castigator as my preferred Knight in games.

Red Corsair wrote:I don't see how the castigator isn't being tar pitted. I understand it doubles wounds but with 4 attacks thats basically 4 dead a turn if it doesnt choke. The tempest attack doesnt stack with the sword RAW and even if it does small MEQ squads don't all need to base the thing, just be 2" to a friendly, so again its gona get liek 4 a turn.

Except you have to use your pile in moves to make base to base contact. Eventually, everything will be in base contact with the Knight.

The two special rules do stack, as far as I know. The reason this normal/special attack nonsense exists is due to 30K ruling.

For all intents and purposes, 40K it works just as CrownAxe says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clarification:

BoLS wrote:EDIT: Turns out that FW intended Deflagerate to stack with Tempest, the "Normal" in the Deflagerate rules is just a hold over from the 30k rules, which is where Deflagerate is copy/pasted from (see Volkite weapons). That changes a ton right there! Now if you're in B2B with 10 models, you could potentially kill 20! The Castigator is the perfect second knight, basically being the polar opposite of the Paladin. At range it can kill single models and in combat it kills hordes.

So if BoLS is to be trusted, we at least have RAI.

If the special attack from Tempest Blade works with Deflagrate, the logical question would be:

What would be an example of something that is not a "normal attack by this weapon" such that you would not generate the Deflagrate effect?

("Deflagrate: After normal attacks by this weapon have been resolved..." )

DoW

Stomps are not a normal attack by this weapon. The wording is as is though due to being copy and pasted from the volkite from 30K. It was a copy paste error that has been independently confirmed by multiple contacts from forgeworld. If you don't trust them just email forgeworld and you will get the answer.

 ansacs wrote:
Stomps are not a normal attack by this weapon. The wording is as is though due to being copy and pasted from the volkite from 30K. It was a copy paste error that has been independently confirmed by multiple contacts from forgeworld. If you don't trust them just email forgeworld and you will get the answer.

Does anyone have the text from one of these FW emails so we can put this one to bed?

 ansacs wrote:
Stomps are not a normal attack by this weapon. The wording is as is though due to being copy and pasted from the volkite from 30K. It was a copy paste error that has been independently confirmed by multiple contacts from forgeworld. If you don't trust them just email forgeworld and you will get the answer.

Hmm, well it may be a typo, but I've been skeptical about emails from GW or Forgeworld for a while (they tend to be a bit arbitrary). As it stands, however, I can't really see too much distinction between the two rules (special type of attack vs. special attack).

"STOMP: Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack."

"TEMPEST ATTACK: Rather than attacking normally, the Knight may make a special attack..."

Maybe there's more to it, but I think it's probably either both or none when it comes to how I would play the Deflagrate rule.

DoW

Hi there.

The Tempest attack states that you use the weapons profile to carry out the attacks, this includes the special rules for the weapon as well including Deflagrate. The Deflagrate rules that are shown in the Castigators rules profile are a cut and paste from the Horus Heresy books which were written before the Castigator rules. When they refer to 'after normal attacks' this just means after any other attacks from the weapon have been performed.


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Here is the complete text response from Forgeworld

 Leth wrote:
Hi there.

The Tempest attack states that you use the weapons profile to carry out the attacks, this includes the special rules for the weapon as well including Deflagrate. The Deflagrate rules that are shown in the Castigators rules profile are a cut and paste from the Horus Heresy books which were written before the Castigator rules. When they refer to 'after normal attacks' this just means after any other attacks from the weapon have been performed.


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Here is the complete text response from Forgeworld

This makes me even more excited for the one I just ordered. Now I just need to write a list to go with it.

Obviously with the way the two rules interact they are are an absolute killing machine vs any squad, and still retain their potency against vehicles with their 5 str 10 attacks on the charge (with re-roll armour pen) + HoW.

On the downside I'm going to have a lot harder time convincing my friends that Knights can be a balanced part of 40k.

It still dies like any other knight, and it only gets those bonuses against large units. In addition it has no way to do multiple wounds or bypass invul. I sweep attacked against a guy and he made all the invuls. In addition it is not strength D so if you are t6 it has no way to ID you outside stomp.

It is a dedicated infantry hunter, and loses horribly to every other super heavy out there.

Also doesnt have a second gun so it can only charge what it shoots.

 Leth wrote:
It still dies like any other knight, and it only gets those bonuses against large units. In addition it has no way to do multiple wounds or bypass invul. I sweep attacked against a guy and he made all the invuls. In addition it is not strength D so if you are t6 it has no way to ID you outside stomp.

It is a dedicated infantry hunter, and loses horribly to every other super heavy out there.

Also doesnt have a second gun so it can only charge what it shoots.

I agree with most of that.

However I'd disagree that the castigator needs to be against a large unit to get its bonuses. Consider that if the castigator sweeps against 2 models in base contact, it is already better than a standard knight. Even having as few as 4 or 5 models in base contact will result in 7=8 casualties usually, + stomp attacks afterwards.

Also, str D isn't particularly good at ignoring invuln saves, only a roll of a 6 ignores them, so I don't think the castigator loses out too much in this regard.

Do you think the lack of str D is all that bad when going against T6 units? Deflagate with 4 str 10 attacks will seriously mitigate the difference imo. This is against non super heavies of course.

O I agree, I was just pointing out where str 10 is worse than str d. I think the situations where it will be is limited, but also against any armor it is going to be WAY worse as well as eternal warrior.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Also, str D isn't particularly good at ignoring invuln saves, only a roll of a 6 ignores them, so I don't think the castigator loses out too much in this regard.

If you were talking about 1 attack then 1/6 of a chance is not huge. When you talk about ~2 hits on the charge then you are looking at a 1 in 5 chance to get a 6 on one of the attacks. That same 6 also happens to kill almost any model in the game in a single pass. Having a 22% chance to remove most models in the game is huge.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Do you think the lack of str D is all that bad when going against T6 units? Deflagate with 4 str 10 attacks will seriously mitigate the difference imo. This is against non super heavies of course.

The big deal about Str 10 vs D is against other knights. The deflag rules do nothing against walkers so the castigator is crippled against his brothers.

Yeah, to tarp it this one you'd need something like a squad of crusaders backed by priests and even with 3++ they'd not last that long. I guess if every priest had melta bombs? It might be ok?

 ansacs wrote:

Big Blind Bill wrote:Also, str D isn't particularly good at ignoring invuln saves, only a roll of a 6 ignores them, so I don't think the castigator loses out too much in this regard.

If you were talking about 1 attack then 1/6 of a chance is not huge. When you talk about ~2 hits on the charge then you are looking at a 1 in 5 chance to get a 6 on one of the attacks. That same 6 also happens to kill almost any model in the game in a single pass. Having a 22% chance to remove most models in the game is huge.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Do you think the lack of str D is all that bad when going against T6 units? Deflagate with 4 str 10 attacks will seriously mitigate the difference imo. This is against non super heavies of course.

The big deal about Str 10 vs D is against other knights. The deflag rules do nothing against walkers so the castigator is crippled against his brothers.

If the model in question is a high points character or MC, then sure str D is much better. Against a squad that has an invuln save however, daemons or TH/SS terminators for example, then the castigator will probably be better, as it generates far more hits.

Of course the castigator is worse vs other knights, that's why I said when against non super heavies. If against something like a WK, the str D weapons will probably be better, but I think the castigator will be close behind on damage output.