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*Note: I am ignoring the whole 'mindless automaton' thing for the purpose of this discussion. Let's pretend that that insert never happened and the TS space marines are still very much aware of their surroundings and have some sort of self-given direction.

So we all know that the Thousand Sons, Ahriman, Big Red and the bunch are serving the changer of ways, but do they know it? I guess a better way to put that may be do they see their actions as a direct furthering of Tzeentch's plan, the way that a Plague Marine or a Berzerker would see their actions as furthering the way of Nurgle or Khorne respectively.

I ask because it seems like on the one hand they are all about the crazy psychic power they get from Big Bird but then they go and pull the Rubric to avoid mutation, which seems a direct contradiction of what Tzeentch is all about. Mutation is kinda his thing, and so you'd expect to see a Tzeentch warband loaded with random mutation and lots of spawn, or at least I would.

Are they like the Crimson Slaughter, who are completely serving Khorne even though they couldn't care less since that's not why they do what they do, or are they more like the Death Guard who are all about serving Papa Nurgle and just want everyone to know it? Or are they somewhere in between the two, accepting the power that Tzeentch offers while still trying to further their own agenda separate from Tzeentch's plan?

Magnus' faction are openly Tzeentchian. Ahriman's faction are blessed by, but do not support Tzeentch. Other splinters vary wildly.

Yes. Arhiman and his faction are pissed about it. He's trying to reverse the damage that was caused.

While it's possible that there are splinter groups out there that don't know their serving Tzeentch, most seem to be aware.

Magnus seems kind of resigned, and views Tzeentch's will as inevitable. Since he's going to be a pawn to Tzeentch's schemes either way, he figures he might as well go along with it willingly.

Ahriman only serves Tzeentch under duress. He has to keep
roaming the galaxy and pursuing his quest or Tzeentch (or possibly Magnus) will destroy him. Of course, he also gathers knowledge for his own sake, and seems to think that knowledge from the Black Library might give him enough power to get free, and possibly even destroy Tzeentch. Which is doubtful, since Tzeentch almost certainly knows all about any plans he might have, Serving the God of schemes sure makes life more complicated, don't it?

Tzeentch doesn't necessarily know whats in the Black Library. Its possible there is a way to destroy him there.

The other possibility is that Tzeentch might actually get a kick out of getting destroyed. Remember Tzeentch is really just in it for epic lulz. He's not trying to win or anything.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tzeentch doesn't necessarily know whats in the Black Library. Its possible there is a way to destroy him there.

The other possibility is that Tzeentch might actually get a kick out of getting destroyed. Remember Tzeentch is really just in it for epic lulz. He's not trying to win or anything.

While the last part is certainly true, I doubt there's something that can destroy a Chaos God (let alone the most powerful one) in the Black Library. If there was, the Eldar would've used it to win their war against Chaos a long time ago.

 fallinq wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tzeentch doesn't necessarily know whats in the Black Library. Its possible there is a way to destroy him there.

The other possibility is that Tzeentch might actually get a kick out of getting destroyed. Remember Tzeentch is really just in it for epic lulz. He's not trying to win or anything.

While the last part is certainly true, I doubt there's something that can destroy a Chaos God (let alone the most powerful one) in the Black Library. If there was, the Eldar would've used it to win their war against Chaos a long time ago.

Khorne is the most powerful, Tzeentch fluctuates between 2nd and 3rd with Nurgle and Slaanesh is 4.

Nah, the four are equally balanced at all times. Tzeentch makes sure of it, because he knows that any one gaining too much power will cause problems.

If Khorne was at #1 and Slaanesh at #4, Khorne would have destroyed Slaanesh by now, considering how much he hates the guy.

All of them know that their legion was totally fethed up and manipulated by Tzeentch to get to where they are now.... and some of them believe they're just pawns for Tzeentch now (Magnus, looking at you).... and others believe they can still defy and defeat Tzeentch and aren't pawns of Tzeentch (Ahriman).

What an individual sorcerer believes though? Not sure, that depends on the group he's with and his personal thoughts.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, the four are equally balanced at all times. Tzeentch makes sure of it, because he knows that any one gaining too much power will cause problems.

If Khorne was at #1 and Slaanesh at #4, Khorne would have destroyed Slaanesh by now, considering how much he hates the guy.

They wouldn't destroy Slaanesh for the same reason they wouldn't kill the Imperium right now. Everything's simmering at the perfect level of Chaos. If they go too far now then all the toys break, and it's boring being the last man standing.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, the four are equally balanced at all times. Tzeentch makes sure of it, because he knows that any one gaining too much power will cause problems.

If Khorne was at #1 and Slaanesh at #4, Khorne would have destroyed Slaanesh by now, considering how much he hates the guy.

They wouldn't destroy Slaanesh for the same reason they wouldn't kill the Imperium right now. Everything's simmering at the perfect level of Chaos. If they go too far now then all the toys break, and it's boring being the last man standing.

I'm pretty sure the Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids will make sure things stay interesting.

Yes. But they don't like having to serve him. At least most of them don't.

Wow, I’m shocked. No faith in our lord and saviour Slaanesh? That guy once bested Khorne in a duel you know. Brawns hold no sway over true perfection .

'perfection' and a bit of help from the friendly neighbourly schemer...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
'perfection' and a bit of help from the friendly neighbourly schemer...

Rubbish. That was a clear-cut example of the graceful Slaanesh besting that Neanderthal Khorne. No outside help was ever received in that fight, especially not from any meddling sorcerer...

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, the four are equally balanced at all times. Tzeentch makes sure of it, because he knows that any one gaining too much power will cause problems.

If Khorne was at #1 and Slaanesh at #4, Khorne would have destroyed Slaanesh by now, considering how much he hates the guy.

They wouldn't destroy Slaanesh for the same reason they wouldn't kill the Imperium right now. Everything's simmering at the perfect level of Chaos. If they go too far now then all the toys break, and it's boring being the last man standing.

I'm pretty sure the Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids will make sure things stay interesting.

Ironicly, if all that's left are Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids... chaos basically dies with a whimper.

Of those three races, Orks are the only ones with any potential to feed Chaos. And they'll do it on a small enough basis that Gork and Mork will just stomp all the Chaos gods flat.

Unwilling servants is how I see it. They got tricked into doing his bidding, and now they might as well. It's not like the Emprah treated them with understanding and forgiveness.

 fallinq wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tzeentch doesn't necessarily know whats in the Black Library. Its possible there is a way to destroy him there.

The other possibility is that Tzeentch might actually get a kick out of getting destroyed. Remember Tzeentch is really just in it for epic lulz. He's not trying to win or anything.

While the last part is certainly true, I doubt there's something that can destroy a Chaos God (let alone the most powerful one) in the Black Library. If there was, the Eldar would've used it to win their war against Chaos a long time ago.

But only a part of the Eldar really hate Chaos, the rest just really hate Slaanesh so that is the only one they really want to destroy. In fact, some of the fluff points that if the Eldar can be claimed by another Chaos God, that is better than being claimed by Slaanesh like those of the Warrior Aspects Shrines who fall to bloodlust they talk how it would be to go to Khorne.

It could be something that takes a lot to do and maybe they want Tzeentch around for some reason. We don't know but the enigmatic Eldar who have plans within plans to get their way, they kind of help Tzeentch anyway and they could also want something like Ynnead as a final gambit.

I am really just playing devil's advocate here to see where this discussion can go about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The question has been answered but does anyone else want the Thousand Sons that are with Magnus to actually be released instead of just having Ahriman and his robots being the only thing that we can play?

What about a Forge World Thousand Sons? That would be awesome.

Coming Soon, Envilhon. Coming Soon.

I look forward to some FW 30k thousand sons, but what I REALLY want is some FW upgrade kits to terminators and CSM like Plague Marines and Khorne Berzerkers have. If you've never seen those kits, they really are some of the best space marine kits produced IMHO.

I'd also like to see a named FW Tzeentch demon prince/ herald and a Sorcerer. Again, Nurgle and Khorne are covered, but that's pretty much it.

Khorne is the "mightiest" of the 4 Chaos gods. It's explicitly stated in several places (the most public being the GW website. At least one of the Khorne products says he's the mightiest). Nurgle is as strong as Khorne on his good days (but Nurgle's power waxes and wanes. That's the god of cycles for ya). For the most part, Tzeentch is considered 2nd strongest, but it's Tzeentch so he's probably in control whether he's the strongest or not (he's explicitly stated to be the one that typically leads and brings together the gods when it comes time to cooperate, and also the closest to "Chaos in its purest form")

Slaanesh is explicitly the weakest, but teams up with the other gods the most (anything for a good time!) and is more than strong enough to be a tie-breaker in conflicts when teamed up with another god. Thus Slaanesh has a lot more political clout than its power would suggest.

Khorne doesn't kill Slaanesh probably because Khorne conceptually can't. Chaos in some ways is the same being (so killing Slaanesh would be like killing himself or a part of himself) and also eternal from the gods' perspective (so killing Slaanesh would be like killing gravity from Khorne's perspective).

Mightiest, in that he's the best fighter, but not strongest, as in has the most power.

Tzeentch, after all, is the one who had to sever a part of himself to avoid being ganged up on as the strongest.

Yes, at one point, Tzeentch was the strongest. That was in the past, however (for what "the past" counts as in the warp). I'm not sure if "mightiest" only refers to Khorne being the best fighter, though. There's a chasm sitting there in the warp that has yet to heal that Khorne made when he got pissed off once. In addition, there's fluff of Khorne not being allowed to swing his sword at full strength cause even Tzeentch fears what might happen if he did. So "mightiest" probably includes at least some level of ability to influence the warp.

Of course, Tzeentch being Tzeentch, I'd place my bet on him if they were ever forced to duke it out to the end. But that's due to Tzeentch able to more effectively use what power he has (again, he's the one capable of uniting the four gods the best, etc). By sheer power alone and not including the ability to manipulate it to best effect, I'd still go with Khorne as the most powerful.

Again, Tzeentch is best able to utilize whatever power is at hand, though, and thus I'd bet on him in a "Who'd win in the end" match simply cause he'd pull some BS out of somewhere to make up for not being as strong, which is probably why his sacred number is 9 while Khorne's is "only" 8. (I assume "power" INCLUDES magical power here, by the way) It'd be like having a 1500 point army against a 2000 point army (Khorne) on the tabletop but knowing the 1500 point army would win due to a superior strategy (...and maybe ability to predict dice rolls, though I'm not sure if such a thing should be included in the points cost or not).

If we assume a god's "power" to be based on the emotions going on in the material realm, this also makes sense. 40k's tagline is "There is only war", so there's probably more hate/war/murder in the world than anything else (thus, Khorne's the most powerful). Again, Tzeentch however doesn''t need to have the most power in order to win (in fact, Tzeentch cults IIRC were stated to be relatively rare compared to other followers of Chaos. Heck, it shows when comparing Legions, too. Thousand Sons are a much smaller amount of marines than the other legions and many of them aren't even loyal to Tzeentch but Tzeentch doesn't seem to mind at all)

However, Tzeentch, as the God of Change, gets to siphon away a little bit of the juice from people killing one another.

After all, they just got changed from living to dead.

 Psienesis wrote:
However, Tzeentch, as the God of Change, gets to siphon away a little bit of the juice from people killing one another.

After all, they just got changed from living to dead.

Being the God of Smartasses really does him some favours. :p