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 Tiger9gamer wrote:
There is fluff already that states evesors can ambush. didn't one lie in wait in a pool of motor oil as hereteks annointed themselves, then leap out to start killing?


I'm sure there is hardly an open space in the temple that isn't covered by some turret or something. Much like an example of ninja homes, they must have trap doors and pitfalls. Besides, the leader of the space marines was headshotted the moment he stepped onto the planet, right?

Maybe the Marines should have strapped bombs to children and sent them into the temple instead... eh???

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
There is fluff already that states evesors can ambush. didn't one lie in wait in a pool of motor oil as hereteks annointed themselves, then leap out to start killing?


I'm sure there is hardly an open space in the temple that isn't covered by some turret or something. Much like an example of ninja homes, they must have trap doors and pitfalls. Besides, the leader of the space marines was headshotted the moment he stepped onto the planet, right?

Maybe the Marines should have strapped bombs to children and sent them into the temple instead... eh???

how.....does this pertain to the conversation...?

 PhillyT wrote:
And synskin is significantly above them in technology level and designed to protect an assassin going into the most dangerous missions solo with the expectation of victory. Pretty sure bolter rounds are low on the lethality totem pole considering what assassins are expected to face.

Yet we've seen them absolute shredded by bolters before. Synskin is downright terrible armor, no ifs or buts about it. It's meant to ensure the user has maximum mobility so they won't get hit, whereas power armor exists so it can take hits.

 troa wrote:
Is 40k a kung-fu movie? No? Oh right, it's not.

Even if there are large open spaces, that does not mean the assassins engaged there. There have also been plenty of times where bullets flying around manage to leave plenty of people standing, even in large battles. Romanticizing the bolter/firearm does not a good argument make.

well yes I suppose it's possiable the assasin temples are the exact oppisite of EVERY other building we see in 40k, and not big eneugh to drive a tank battalion through it in line abreast formation

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
There is fluff already that states evesors can ambush. didn't one lie in wait in a pool of motor oil as hereteks annointed themselves, then leap out to start killing?


I'm sure there is hardly an open space in the temple that isn't covered by some turret or something. Much like an example of ninja homes, they must have trap doors and pitfalls. Besides, the leader of the space marines was headshotted the moment he stepped onto the planet, right?

Maybe the Marines should have strapped bombs to children and sent them into the temple instead... eh???

how.....does this pertain to the conversation...?

The Marines clearly had smarter options than storming the Temple.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
And synskin is significantly above them in technology level and designed to protect an assassin going into the most dangerous missions solo with the expectation of victory. Pretty sure bolter rounds are low on the lethality totem pole considering what assassins are expected to face.

Yet we've seen them absolute shredded by bolters before. Synskin is downright terrible armor, no ifs or buts about it. It's meant to ensure the user has maximum mobility so they won't get hit, whereas power armor exists so it can take hits.

And we have sen power armor sliced open with chain swords.

Really, either the assassins are as quick as the fluff and the crunch say they are and they avoid injury, or the synskin absorbs and digit ages damage as the fluff claims. The idea that they are unarmored and incapable of avoiding injury flys in the face of their supposed job and the value placed on their deployment.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
And synskin is significantly above them in technology level and designed to protect an assassin going into the most dangerous missions solo with the expectation of victory. Pretty sure bolter rounds are low on the lethality totem pole considering what assassins are expected to face.

Yet we've seen them absolute shredded by bolters before. Synskin is downright terrible armor, no ifs or buts about it. It's meant to ensure the user has maximum mobility so they won't get hit, whereas power armor exists so it can take hits.

And we have sen power armor sliced open with chain swords.

Really, either the assassins are as quick as the fluff and the crunch say they are and they avoid injury, or the synskin absorbs and digit ages damage as the fluff claims. The idea that they are unarmored and incapable of avoiding injury flys in the face of their supposed job and the value placed on their deployment.

Except the fluff doesn't claim it absorbs damage. It's specifically stated for speed, not durability. Plus it doesn't help Assassins come up very rarely in 40K, meaning they often are on the short end of the stick. Which sucks for them, but lax shouldn't be given just because the fluff hasn't ever seriously touched upon them.

I've not seen their new stats but as of the old GK codex, synthskin gave FNP 6+, which I'd say means it CAN protect against bolters but generally speaking it's not exactly a reliable form of defence.

And 100 of them killed a Space Marine Strike Force of forces between 3 Chapters, save 1 guy, but were, in the end, defeated.

I think they had a fine showing, and that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

Except the fluff doesn't claim it absorbs damage. It's specifically stated for speed, not durability. Plus it doesn't help Assassins come up very rarely in 40K, meaning they often are on the short end of the stick. Which sucks for them, but lax shouldn't be given just because the fluff hasn't ever seriously touched upon them.

It does say synskin absorbs damage. It also says they are fast as the wind, but that is likely to be disregarded by folks around here.

It depends, winds can be pretty slow.

Also, 'absorbs damage' =/= 'absorbs lethal high caliber explosive rounds'.

On my phone so can't type toooo much. But Eversors, in my opinion, largely rely on not feeling pain and fighting through it. They are the epitome of offense and meant to die, a kamikaze killing macbine. Having marines deployed in mass goes against the doctrine of Eversors employment so it's not a count against them for having "failed" in this particular operations they are intended for quick,absolutely brutal decapitation more tha n anything else.

Yes they are extremel potent. But outside your element and with "fluff" marines that typically perform with mythological efficiecy, I'd argue they still lived up to their legend.

I'd argue it was their temple, the marines HAD to come inside, so home field advantage + ambush by a hundred professional assassins = a fuckton of dead marines.

The very idea that supressive fire could have enough effect to completely deny any advantage to the Eversors is really far-fetched.

Space Marines are awesome and all, but if you are not allowed to level the building, you have to get inside, meaning you lose range advantage, mobility and clean fire lanes.

If that temple has columns or any other kind of obstacles inside, progression is never going to be perfectly safe, and beyond a certain number of obstacles, guaranteed to give the upper hand to a more agile enemy.

Now if your enemy is a quick and agile suicide bomber with jedi reflexes, every meter will cost you a lot of casualties.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

Set a few devastator squads around the place with sniper scout reinforcements, and then just let the cruiser's guns do the work.

Some Chapters are smarter than others, I guess.

Because the temple was on Terra, and you do not orbitally bombard Terra.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

Set a few devastator squads around the place with sniper scout reinforcements, and then just let the cruiser's guns do the work.

Some Chapters are smarter than others, I guess.

Because the temple was on Terra, and you do not orbitally bombard Terra.

Then you drop the bombs from a Thunderhawk below orbit... or you use Whirlwinds.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

Set a few devastator squads around the place with sniper scout reinforcements, and then just let the cruiser's guns do the work.

Some Chapters are smarter than others, I guess.

Because the temple was on Terra, and you do not orbitally bombard Terra.

Then you drop the bombs from a Thunderhawk below orbit... or you use Whirlwinds.

yet again, on terra. colaterial damage had to be kept to a minumum.

They could probably just use biological warfare. Tends not to leave a mess.

morgoth wrote:
I'd argue it was their temple, the marines HAD to come inside, so home field advantage + ambush by a hundred professional assassins = a fuckton of dead marines.

I'd wager not. A perfectly acceptable solution to a rogue temple would be to bury it plascrete. Perhaps they'd have some secret tunnels out but Eversor's by their nature aren't built for extended blending in, or extended anything. Just bury them, seal up every door you can find, cut the power and water and let a decade pass. Clear the entrances when you're ready to go in. I guarantee you the threat will be significantly lessened. Then send in some servo skulls and servitors loaded with explosives. If you find an Eversor, boom. It'll be much easier on your marine numbers.

 Kojiro wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I'd argue it was their temple, the marines HAD to come inside, so home field advantage + ambush by a hundred professional assassins = a fuckton of dead marines.

I'd wager not. A perfectly acceptable solution to a rogue temple would be to bury it plascrete. Perhaps they'd have some secret tunnels out but Eversor's by their nature aren't built for extended blending in, or extended anything. Just bury them, seal up every door you can find, cut the power and water and let a decade pass. Clear the entrances when you're ready to go in. I guarantee you the threat will be significantly lessened. Then send in some servo skulls and servitors loaded with explosives. If you find an Eversor, boom. It'll be much easier on your marine numbers.

Well, I agree, but apparently, the marines HAD to come inside, they received that order and they executed it.

They didn't bomb the temple because they wanted to keep the temple. They were there for one man, Vandire. They needed to kill him and reclaim control of Terra and the Officio.

 Deadshot wrote:
They didn't bomb the temple because they wanted to keep the temple. They were there for one man, Vandire. They needed to kill him and reclaim control of Terra and the Officio.

Not Vandire, lol. Space Marines never even got inside the fortifications during Vandire's reign.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
They didn't bomb the temple because they wanted to keep the temple. They were there for one man, Vandire. They needed to kill him and reclaim control of Terra and the Officio.

Not Vandire, lol. Space Marines never even got inside the fortifications during Vandire's reign.

gak, who am I thinking of? Whatever his name is, that's what I meant.

Vangorich. His name's on page 1.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Vangorich. His name's on page 1.

I got the first half right, cut me some slack :p

If an alternative method was used, the whole incident probably wouldn't have been mentioned in the fluff in the first place (at least in codex fluff, which IIRC is where it comes from). The whole point of WH40k codexes is the battles, not "bomb everything from orbit, lol"

When dealing with fluff from codexes, you really should just either assume battle was the only/preferred option (in this case, there's a whole slew of possible reasons why that could be the case given that this is on Terra, etc), or that GW just had an oversight and give them a pass. Because codex fluff is almost always about battling.

Anyways, the fact that the strike force was put together by multiple marine chapters means it was probably a very good size. The fact that only one Marine survived to finish the job when you consider how bad ass Marines are supposed to be in fluff was clearly meant to be GW saying "Yea, those Eversors were also bad ass". Sure, we don't know the exact numbers of marines, but the INTENT of the circumstance was clearly meant to portray just how powerful eversor assassins can be while still letting the Imperium "win" (because if the Imperium lost this, that obviously would have been too bad for the Imperium).

As a side note, it's clear that there were Vindicares at the start of the battle too. I'm under the impression we only got a cliff-notes summary of it which omitted a chunk of the middle and other details, and I wouldn't be surprised if the other assassin types besides Vindicares and Eversors were involved in the full thing.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
They could probably just use biological warfare. Tends not to leave a mess.

.... no biological warfare is VERY messy. thing is you have almost zero control of where the virus goes after you launch it, it can spread. this is bad mkay? remember the temple wasn't on some inhabbited moon. it was ON TERRA.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
They could probably just use biological warfare. Tends not to leave a mess.

.... no biological warfare is VERY messy. thing is you have almost zero control of where the virus goes after you launch it, it can spread. this is bad mkay? remember the temple wasn't on some inhabbited moon. it was ON TERRA.

Were talking about extremely advanced stuff here, surely they have CONTAINMENT. Or if all else fails they could GAS THE PLACE.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
They could probably just use biological warfare. Tends not to leave a mess.

.... no biological warfare is VERY messy. thing is you have almost zero control of where the virus goes after you launch it, it can spread. this is bad mkay? remember the temple wasn't on some inhabbited moon. it was ON TERRA.

Were talking about extremely advanced stuff here, surely they have CONTAINMENT. Or if all else fails they could GAS THE PLACE.

You can't contain something on a planet as highly populated as Terra, let alone a Hive World. When Plague Zombies or infections of any sort hit a planet in 40k, and due to how close people live to each other, the only option is to leave and bomb the place from orbit.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
They could probably just use biological warfare. Tends not to leave a mess.

.... no biological warfare is VERY messy. thing is you have almost zero control of where the virus goes after you launch it, it can spread. this is bad mkay? remember the temple wasn't on some inhabbited moon. it was ON TERRA.

Were talking about extremely advanced stuff here, surely they have CONTAINMENT. Or if all else fails they could GAS THE PLACE.

You can't contain something on a planet as highly populated as Terra, let alone a Hive World. When Plague Zombies or infections of any sort hit a planet in 40k, and due to how close people live to each other, the only option is to leave and bomb the place from orbit.

Now, maybe not. Then, I'm not sure. And bio-warfare doesn't just mean viruses.

Biological warfare is actually very containable, but that's not the point. The Imperium (and specifically, the Space Marines) don't seem to have much in the form of biological weaponry other than Hellfire rounds and virus bombs.

I like the story. Sure, it's a Space Marine victory, but there's no way that it couldn't have been and still fit into the setting. A hundred Eversors fighting off that many Marines is rather refreshing, compared to "three Space Marines walked into an entire regiment of Imperial Guard and whipped them all to death with tank treads".

We also don't know the situation with that one Marine. Maybe he was the only one to make it to Drakan, but was killed by Eversors after. Maybe the remnants of both forces were wiped out when a desperate Captain detonated a big meltabomb on himself. We don't know how many Marines there were, how many died, or how many of those hundred Eversors died.

EDIT: Come to think of it, why is nobody talking about how a Grand Master of Assassins was killed by a single Marine with a bolt pistol?