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There has been quite a lot of talk on and off here about 3D printing, and I thought folks might be interested in this;

Dremel’s $1000 Idea Builder hopes to bring 3D printing to the masses



3D printers are no longer gigantic DIY monstrosities that you have to assemble yourself, but they are far from being a consumer-ready solution — until now, perhaps. One of the biggest names in power tools is trying its hand at the future of manufacturing with a new 3D printer. The Dremel Idea Builder is intended to be the first truly mass-market 3D printer with a competitive price, compact design, and a name people know. The price is quite attractive – the Idea Builder will be on sale soon for $1000.

The Idea Builder is a single-extruder printer, meaning you can only load a single color of plastic filament at a time. The printing platform is non-heated, so this printer is intended for use with PLA plastics only. PLA is by far the most popular material for 3D printing, but ABS is gaining ground quickly. However, it has a tendency to warp badly while cooling unless the printer has a heated bed to help lower the temperature more gradually.
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Go read the rest of the article.

A couple of things strike me as significant with this product as opposed to some earlier announcements: first, it's a really big name brand (at least in the US) for hobby folk. Second, the distribution through Home Depot is a very big deal: not only does it get the product in front of a lot of people, but it could potentially push Home Depot's rivals (Lowes and others) to look into either marketing their own brands, or developing distribution for existing 3D maker brands. Either way a big deal in getting these into people's hands and making the marketplace bigger.

With low cost comes very low resolution.



Depending on the cost of the filaments, it may be passable for terrain. Certainly nowhere near passable for many of the miniatures people play.

Low resolution for sure, but if it's even remotely successful, higher resolution is not far off. It's going to be an interesting decade for 3D printing.

Well, remember, if you're like me and you have a ton of spare bits lying around, all you need is a passable supplement for the missing pieces. I've got so many spare heads and lasguns at this point, all I need is a passable legs and torso to crank out a couple extra squads of Catachans.....

And how many spare Rhino bits do I have that I just need a metal box to glue them to?

Could you build a whole army from scratch? No. Could you supplement your army by using extra bits and filling in the missing parts with a 3D printer? Quite possibly.

Liquid resin printers are going to get a lot better resolution, and soon for a similar cost.

Here is one that is DLP-based, but cheaper than the B9 Creator:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/362246155/littlerp-affordable-flexible-open-3d-resin-printer

It's about the same cost as the one shown in the OP here, but could achieve much better resolution. We'll know more when it delivers (supposed to be in just a few months). I'm definitely keeping an eye on it, as the B9 Creator and Form1 are both incredible, but still too pricey. Getting down around that $1K pricepoint will really open things up for these types of higher resolution 3d printers.

So we're basically at the dot matrix stage for household 3D printers. They're expensive, they don't really print in the way you'd find useful, but they print. Wait and see for the next 5-10 years?

 -Loki- wrote:
So we're basically at the dot matrix stage for household 3D printers. They're expensive, they don't really print in the way you'd find useful, but they print. Wait and see for the next 5-10 years?

Faster than that. Like with the inkjet - the big draw back that prevented wider scale development, price reductions and use - the patent held by HP expired and the inkjet market exploded.

This past year and going into the middle of 2015, the majority of the core technology patents that relate to 3D printing will expire. This will allow everyone and there brother to get into the mix and we should see rapid development and availability outside the pricey models which are currently available (one of the reasons filament printers have come around first is that they were the first ones to expire).

The primary one for liquid build materials expires June 9th, 2015. Expect to see the competition start to release their home models June 10th.

The other big one is laser sintering - which while not as popular for miniatures is significant because the build size can be focused cheaply based on the particle size and focus of the laser. That one expires March 20 of 2015.

I've got hope, but it's still held back by not seeing why the majority of households will care.

Paper printers were touted as the downfall of printed media. That didn't happen, because no one gets an electronic book, prints it and reads it. They succeeded in households because there's other uses for printed media - like bringing your resume along to an interview, printing a school assignment or material to study, etc.

3D printing, I just don't see the use. What you'd print for household means is either insanely cheap (common household items like utensils or sink plugs) or mostly suited to tempered steel (screws, nails, etc). I'm sure theres items general households will want to print, but I'm not seeing it.

That's why I'm not expecting a rapid explosion. Not that the ingenuity isn't there, but I don't see the general household gain. Printers got super cheap because they got popular and so production got streamlined and improved. Without massive popularity, I don't see them becoming cheap enough that they're going to start seeing general use. $1000 isn't much to some, but its a lot to a lot more.

There's a lot of gamers out there who would love to print their own minis. Not to mention plastic model collectors who might want to sculpt parts to convert, say, a P-38E to a P-38J (with the bent tail forks) or a B-17G into a B-38 (with in-line liquid cooled engines replacing the radial air-cooled engines).

Will 3D printers ever get as cheap as a paper printer? Unlikely. But cheap enough for dedicated hobbyists to use? Certainly. Within the price range of a top-of-the-line airbrush, or a Dremel with full accessory kit anyway.

Might take a decade or so, but it'll get there.

 Vulcan wrote:
Might take a decade or so, but it'll get there.

Which was my point. I was contesting it happening within a few years, not that there's no interest or won't get there. In fact, I initially said 10-15 years.

I wonder what the cartridges or equivalent cost and how long they last.

3D printing might be expensive but in 5-10 years time GW will probably be charging £50 for a Rhino, if they're still in business.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I wonder what the cartridges or equivalent cost and how long they last.

3D printing might be expensive but in 5-10 years time GW will probably be charging £50 for a Rhino, if they're still in business.

Talking about cartridges, isn't it cheaper to buy a new printer sometimes once the ink runs out? I mean the prices for some cartridges are almost the cost of a printer, I use to buy a new printer instead of buying ink. I wonder how much the material will cost for 3D printers. Anyone know? Now I hard ever use a printer now.

For me, I can't really see why I need a 3D printer. Just to make knick backs? For a $1000? No thank you. Since my knowledge of them is about Zero, I only seen a few pics of what they made, and the quality is even worse than Dollar Store toys. What use is a 3D printer NOW? Not 5 years from now or 20 years from now.

Also once you have a 3D printer, what else do you need? Do you need a program or soft ware to create the stuff you want to make? What if you can't find what you want, or exactly what you want? Are you fu barred then?

For most people they'll be useless, but for maker/hobbyists they'll be great for producing fairly high precision templates for things, scenery parts, armatures and such.

It being cheaper to replace the printer than the cartridge used to be the case with cheaper printers, but then the cheap printers usually came with smaller cartridges as well to make new cartridges feel like even worse value.

I expect that 3d printers will become something like a router- not everyone needs one, but there is still a demand for them from the market.

Until the price comes way down and the quality goes way up, they aren't much use to the individual hobbyist. However, even if the price stays where it is, as long as the quality improves it will be a major boon to the various small and independent games companies with the benefits going to hobbyists.

Companies like Khurasan regularly hire out digital sculpting of vehicles which they later cast in resin. They then have to have the master 3d printed, which can be quite expensive at the level of resolution they require and may have to be repeated if the master requires changes. A high quality printer, even one that costs a grand or two, will not only lower the development costs of new models, but having the equipment on-site will allow the company to improve their models and introduce new products at a much higher rate.The end result will be much better (and possibly a bit cheaper) products getting out to the consumer. If you thought there were alot of companies doing alternate parts and vehicles now, just wait until it becomes possible for folks to drop a grand or so and print their own prototypes and masters.

Lastly, it will make it quite affordable for hobbyists with CAD skills to have their designs printed affordably because there will be so many smaller companies with high-quality 3d printers. Shapeways is currently cost-prohititive for many projects, but that will change.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Might take a decade or so, but it'll get there.

Which was my point. I was contesting it happening within a few years, not that there's no interest or won't get there. In fact, I initially said 10-15 years.

Ah, I missed that. My mistake.

EDIT: Looking back at those pics of the product... low-res indeed, but nothing a little file work and TLC couldn't fix.

 RiTides wrote:
Liquid resin printers are going to get a lot better resolution, and soon for a similar cost.

Here is one that is DLP-based, but cheaper than the B9 Creator:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/362246155/littlerp-affordable-flexible-open-3d-resin-printer

It's about the same cost as the one shown in the OP here, but could achieve much better resolution.

I'm curious, did you guys even look at the link posted here? We're not looking at 5-10 years away for decent miniature-quality resolution for around $1000... the machine in the link above is basically already there!

I built a first generation of the MakerBot Thing-O-Matic, and I'm now using a Form 1+ printer. The difference between the extruded plastic 3d printers (like the OP posted in this thread) and liquid resin 3d printers (like the Form 1+, B9 Creator, and LittleRP) is incredible. Once these become a little cheaper and reliable, we're going to see a lot more miniature-type projects being printed by hobbyists.

I've posted this before, but here is something I printed on my Form1+. The LittleRP printer looks to have results that are close, for around a third of the price. In other words, the pace things are improving at is pretty insane- we're on the steep part of the technology improvement / affordability slope.



If the LittleRP can come close to the Form 1+ in results, I have no idea why ANYONE would look at the Dremel option for about the same price with the old extruded plastic technology instead of using liquid resin.

 RiTides wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Liquid resin printers are going to get a lot better resolution, and soon for a similar cost.

Here is one that is DLP-based, but cheaper than the B9 Creator:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/362246155/littlerp-affordable-flexible-open-3d-resin-printer

It's about the same cost as the one shown in the OP here, but could achieve much better resolution.

I'm curious, did you guys even look at the link posted here? We're not looking at 5-10 years away for decent miniature-quality resolution for around $1000... the machine in the link above is basically already there!

I built a first generation of the MakerBot Thing-O-Matic, and I'm now using a Form 1+ printer. The difference between the extruded plastic 3d printers (like the OP posted in this thread) and liquid resin 3d printers (like the Form 1+, B9 Creator, and LittleRP) is incredible. Once these become a little cheaper and reliable, we're going to see a lot more miniature-type projects being printed by hobbyists.

I've posted this before, but here is something I printed on my Form1+. The LittleRP printer looks to have results that are close, for around a third of the price. In other words, the pace things are improving at is pretty insane- we're on the steep part of the technology improvement / affordability slope.



If the LittleRP can come close to the Form 1+ in results, I have no idea why ANYONE would look at the Dremel option for about the same price with the old extruded plastic technology instead of using liquid resin.

Sorry I don't agree. While it is detailed, and I am amazed at the quality, I still believe it fails comparison wise. While it may be the same size as a Space Marine, it's not at the same scale. If you are going to do comparison shots, then we need a FULL BODY shot just like the SM at the same scale. If you added the body legs to the head, it will be way to big. While it gives me hope that you can make good Trygons, how will it be when you make a full SM?

Now lets see an actual SM or miniature at the same size and scale with the same detail, then we can start talking on how good 3D printers are. Also how long will it take to make that? How much money will it cost? Who is going to design it? Is there legal ramifications over this? If someone makes it but doesn't sell it, will it still be legal and nobody can get in trouble with the law?

My guess after looking at the pic I say maybe in 5 years we maybe at the level to 3D print 40K minis at a good quality or awesome quality. Thing is, how much will it cost? Hydro, materials, waste, it all adds up, so how much is it compared to actually buying from GW then since they don't seemed to be worried about it.

3D printing will never be as cheap as plastics because of economy of scale. At best I'd say about the price of a resin figure.

3D printing customized one off figures of heros is what the tech offers.

Davor wrote:
Sorry I don't agree. While it is detailed, and I am amazed at the quality, I still believe it fails comparison wise. While it may be the same size as a Space Marine, it's not at the same scale. If you are going to do comparison shots, then we need a FULL BODY shot just like the SM at the same scale. If you added the body legs to the head, it will be way to big. While it gives me hope that you can make good Trygons, how will it be when you make a full SM?

I disagree with your disagreement. ^_^ Having actually printed miniatures on a Form1, the detail is definitely there and can do it. There are however tricks to it like anything else. How many pieces you cut the work up, how you deal with the overhangs and where you have your support that you can easily clean up. However you can get fairly good detail. It would still require some clean up work, which is on par to normal cleanup of a sprued miniature.

3D Printing however will never be cheaper than mass production pieces. They are great for someone who wanted to do a small run or make customization or bit pieces but not so much for someone working on production. What can be created in 24 hours quantity/quality vs what can be printed in 24 hours quality/quantity is vastly different.

Now as to why someone would go for extrusion vs resin for simple terms is because of adaptability. They are two different printers targeted at two different markets. Resin printers are great for miniatures, details considering jewelry and dental offices have been using them for awhile. The options for extrusion printers are vastly more superior in terms of material and methods though. If you want one color, high detailed then resin is great. Want to print in full color, wood or maybe you want a high temperature negative mold then extrusion tends to be able to handle it better. Of course having a printer that can print support material is even better because then there is less cleanup time, which both sets of printer technologies can do. It just really depends on what you want, the medium it will be used for and the materials you want it made out of that determines which printer option to go with. That is why companies that tend to do rapid prototyping usually have 2-3 different printers at least which lets them handle almost every customers need.

Just you wait till IKEA starts making 3d printers and you can print your furniture for a fee...

3D Printers will beat GW prices anyday...

 Dark Severance wrote:

Davor wrote:
Sorry I don't agree. While it is detailed, and I am amazed at the quality, I still believe it fails comparison wise. While it may be the same size as a Space Marine, it's not at the same scale. If you are going to do comparison shots, then we need a FULL BODY shot just like the SM at the same scale. If you added the body legs to the head, it will be way to big. While it gives me hope that you can make good Trygons, how will it be when you make a full SM?

I disagree with your disagreement. ^_^ Having actually printed miniatures on a Form1, the detail is definitely there and can do it. There are however tricks to it like anything else. How many pieces you cut the work up, how you deal with the overhangs and where you have your support that you can easily clean up. However you can get fairly good detail. It would still require some clean up work, which is on par to normal cleanup of a sprued miniature.

Yeah, the cleanup is the real "catch"! The bust works well, because the supports were able to be on the underside. For a miniature, the file would need to have the parts as many separate pieces so that the support material could be on internal faces.

So far, the only models I've found to print have been as a single piece. I've got a really good one... but the file was given to me on the condition that I wouldn't show pictures of it everywhere, since it's still in development! I got the predator bust from http://www.turbosquid.com , and have another full-body model I want to try from there that may impress.

However, my primary use for my printer is for more engineering-type designs, rather than miniatures, so I just fit these in every now and then for fun . Bottom line, as others said, is that I don't ever see this replacing casting for mass production, but for making masters of models to then cast, or for printing out unique things (even character models or the like) it is not far away at all! The difficult parts is making good files, and then cleanup of the part, but I'm hoping at least that second item will improve (I would kill for dissolvable support material on my machine!).

 Dark Severance wrote:


3D Printing however will never be cheaper than mass production pieces. They are great for someone who wanted to do a small run or make customization or bit pieces but not so much for someone working on production. What can be created in 24 hours quantity/quality vs what can be printed in 24 hours quality/quantity is vastly different.

It may never be cheaper to produce than mass production, but it may will end up being much cheaper than some companies charge for mass production pieces. remember that GW charges $2-6 or more for line troops. It may be a few more years, but that's not a hard target to hit, especially as the resin and plastic "inks" come down in price.

That said, the technology will -as I said earlier- become much useful to small companies much faster than individuals

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Just you wait till IKEA starts making 3d printers and you can print your furniture for a fee...

LOL, why do I see this actually happening?

3D Printers will beat GW prices anyday...

May you please explain your self, because I don't see it. How is 3D Printers going to beat GW prices anyway? So far I asked, what the costs are and nobody gave it. Can you please explain how you have concluded your thought?

I remember selling color printers back in 1993 to the masses at an Office Depot (box store). 15 years later I feel the zenith of affordable color printing for the masses has been met. We now muse at the idea of just buying a brand new printer when its time to buy new cartridges because the costs are (somewhat comparable).

Man I hope I'm still gaming in 15 years. It's going to be a fun wait.

Support material also sort of depends on how the miniature is designed...and how it is printed.

I picked up a B9 creator on a whim - and so far, I have managed to do most my test prints without any support material. Since it prints by flashing the bottom of the liquid with light and then raising that cured portion - you can get pretty crazy provided you think about your design ahead of time and make sure everything "flows down". Sometimes I print stuff on its side, sometimes upside down...just need to look at it to make sure there aren't any spots that are higher than the previous high spot (curved horns and spikes are a bit of a pain).

Regarding the price. It will never be cheaper for a company to print miniatures versus casting them. Pretty much true. Don't think it will ever get to that point. Might see some sort of print on demand type situation though for characters and other low demand figures - even from relatively high volume manufacturers.

However, it is already cheaper for me to print miniatures than to buy them - significantly cheaper. I am paying roughly 13 cents per cubic centimeter for the UV cured resin for the B9. I can print a pretty big miniature for less than a dollar (really big). It isn't very quick - but, as an individual - if I print a unit over the course of a weekend (having three or four miniatures on the build platform at a time)...no big deal. Granted, for a company to have to spend that amount of time per figure - that just isn't feasible for production.

Even when I look at how much it costs me to make metal or resin casts - I need to get up around 30 spins on metal and 75 or so resin casts to beat the price of the 3D print...but then I have another mold that I will need to store.

Of course, before I start looking at selling off my casting equipment, I want to get to 10 micron resolution. The B9 I am using is around 25 microns. Should be able to tweak it a bit to get under 20 without loosing too much of the build size. The LittleRP does 15 microns - but very small build size. Commercial printers are already there (but pricey).

I don't expect the home version printers to drop down to inkjet prices...pretty much ever. However, I do expect that as soon as the competition opens up through expired patents - there will be a flood of options on the market in the $750-1000 price range. Improved resolution and speed will be the two big areas that companies will be able to compete for the market in, which will push the home printer down into that 10 micron range.

The other big thing is that printers like the Form1 and B9 are great, in that they are inexpensive - but that isn't enough to make any real impact. To get the real change, you will need to be able to go into a big box store and buy one off the shelf. To do that, you don't need a company who can make a profit selling the printer at $1000-3000 per unit. You need them to be able to sell it at a profit for $250-400 per unit...and then have Walmart add their markup as well.

Don't see anything that would keep it from happening in the next year or two. The technology is rather simple overall - and most the parts are already in place to make it happen.

Davor wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Just you wait till IKEA starts making 3d printers and you can print your furniture for a fee...

LOL, why do I see this actually happening?

Because Caterpillar and other companies are working on a really big version, for building homes?

3D Printers will beat GW prices anyday...

May you please explain your self, because I don't see it. How is 3D Printers going to beat GW prices anyway? So far I asked, what the costs are and nobody gave it. Can you please explain how you have concluded your thought?

I think that is more of a comment on how quickly GW prices are rising than an attempt at an accurate prediction.

Heck... I think the raising prices on GW miniatures outstrips the rising price of gold... which means, if taken to absurd lengths, eventually GW miniatures will cost their weight in gold... (I think that they have already beaten the price by weight for raw silver....)

The Auld Grump

People doubted that home computing would amount to much, and mobile phones were largely an unnecessary luxury. Who really needs to be in constant communication other than some executive? Now every home has at least one computer and everyone has a phone. People find uses for things as the opportunities are offered. The surprise for me is just how quickly 3D printing is looking affordable.

I really don't think quality 3D printers will ever get cheaper than just buying an army which has been cast by a large scale manufacturer, at least not for most people. You do hit a bottom of price with the minimum cost of manufacture and I don't think that bottom will be less than several hundred dollars for something that will print miniatures to a quality wargamers will be happy using.

I also don't really think quality 3D printers are going to be a big mainstream thing. Maybe as the price comes down some of the crappier versions in lots of homes. You can tell me how I don't have vision and how people doubted computers and 2D printers and what not, but all those things appear to me to even at the time have several well defined utilities that would appeal to the mainstream consumer.

2D printers had a purpose, people needed things on paper and printers were easier than typewriters and hand writing stuff. There has always been lots of paperwork to deal with. Kids could write reports on computers and send them in. People could do their budgets and print them out. You could write letters and print them out. Oddly enough, with the internet these days and people getting more tech savvy, the need for 2D printers has dropped, most people I know now don't actually own one any more and just use leave things on their hard drives if they need a copy or use the internet to communicate.

Home computers always had the ability to compute things and then later organising and communicating.

Where is the home utility of 3D printing beyond printing knick knacks?

I think 3D printers main use will be niche consumers like wargamers who want to print their own models and industry as a form of rapid prototyping and as it improves it could form the basis of more adaptable manufacturing (I don't think it's ever going to get cheaper than existing mass production methods like stamping, casting, etc, but for stuff that isn't mass produced it will allow more customisation and individual tailoring).

I'm really enthusiastic to see how 3D printing allows industry to advance at a faster rate, but I'm not seeing the mainstream home user's utility. Though maybe our horrible education system will convince parents they need to give their kids 3D printers so they can create pointless knick knacks and that will drive it.

It will remain a relative specialty device - at least till it can print food that tastes good...

However, don't overlook specialty devices that really serve no purpose as not becoming relatively mainstream. You can go to almost any Walmart in the US and buy a Cricut. What does it do? Cuts shapes out of paper - isn't even terribly customizable. Head a few aisles over, and you can find Brother computerized sewing machines - capable of embroidering fabric... Also a very specialized machine, which really doesn't have any real purpose. Now, you have to embroider a lot of doilies to make up the cost of buying the machine to do it for you...but they still sell the machines. I would be willing to be that someone in your neighborhood has one - probably right next to their Cricut.

As a result of those cheap machines though - you can also get a rotary engraver (Cricut on steroids) that will mark aluminum and brass or cut plastic up to 1/4" thick for less than $1000 (as opposed to them being $10K+ not to many years ago). 10 Needle commercial level embroidery machines have dropped from $15K to under $3K as well because of machines like the one Brother.

Companies will see the market for advanced home users who might have bought the commercial machine last year start to weigh the option of a really cheap home version. By making a midrange model (little smaller area, little slower...) home version for the advanced user - they don't loose those sales to the Dremel machine.

Expect Martha Stewart and her kind to be the primary driving factor for the home market though. Carved Easter eggs, Christmas Ornaments and napkin rings will provide many more sales than miniatures will...but we will see the benefits from those crafty types as it creates a market for people who want something more.