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Sometimes, politicians should listen to the people that know what they are talking about, not the ignorant and reactionary masses.

This is one of those times.

Also, the scientific approach to EVD in America has not failed, it's done nothing but prove what we already know about the disease.

Then the handling of Duncan was not a failure
The two nurses who were caring for Duncan and caught the virus is not a failure
CDC PPE requirment to handle Ebola patients was not a failure
CDC given the green light for one infected nurse to fly after multiple phone calls to CDC was not a failure
Dr Spencer is on a fence with me till either it was him that failed the system or the system failed him
etc etc etc

The word "failure" is just a polite way of saying "Someone "F"'ed up along the way". Federal side of house appears ate up from the floor up or basically a football bat to the general mass.

 Jihadin wrote:
Then the handling of Duncan was not a failure
The two nurses who were caring for Duncan and caught the virus is not a failure
CDC PPE requirment to handle Ebola patients was not a failure
CDC given the green light for one infected nurse to fly after multiple phone calls to CDC was not a failure
Dr Spencer is on a fence with me till either it was him that failed the system or the system failed him
etc etc etc

The word "failure" is just a polite way of saying "Someone "F"'ed up along the way". Federal side of house appears ate up from the floor up or basically a football bat to the general mass.

How many people have contracted it in America?

Two.

How many Americans have died from EVD in America?

None.

And yet somehow, no one (especially the government) has done anything right and the whole thing had been a clusterfeth and the largest medical failure in the history if the United States according to some of the people in this thread.

I have a feeling you guys exist in a reality separate from the real world.

Want to know what those "two" mean? One to many. I'm just pointing out the facts which lead to this. No my issue to convince you or sway you. I understand why they did it and the events that lead to their decision. No biggie No worry. You can maintain that 99.9% positive proof that CDC/WH is right but its that .01% that screws everyone in the end

 Jihadin wrote:
Want to know what those "two" mean? One to many. I'm just pointing out the facts which lead to this. No my issue to convince you or sway you. I understand why they did it and the events that lead to their decision. No biggie No worry. You can maintain that 99.9% positive proof that CDC/WH is right but its that .01% that screws everyone in the end

In a perfect world, one sick person is too many, so let me know when we start living in that world. Right now, the number of Americans that have contracted EVD in America is so beyond statistically insignificant.

It's been asked before by the more rational amongst us, but where is the concern over diseases that actually pose a threat to Americans? How come you guys don't say gak about the kids that have died from pertussis, even though that is a completely preventable disease that no one in America should die of? I don't see calls from politicians to arrest parents who refuse to vaccinate against actual dangerous (yet preventable) diseases.

In a perfect world Duncan would not have lied on his entry form to slide by customs that got this ball rolling

My better half sent me this from her facebook page:

The present Ebola crisis in the world is frightening. I have submitted the following letter to the editor of the Lewiston Morning Tribune:

Editor, Lewiston Morning Tribune:

If I wish to import a horse into the United States from Liberia or any African country other than Morocco, the horse needs to undergo a 60 day quarantine period at a USDA approved quarantine facility prior to mingling with the general population of horses in this country. Africa has a disease called African Horse Sickness that does not exist in the US; this is the way we have kept it out of this country. African Horse Sickness does not cause disease in people, only horses; our government has determined that it would be devastating to the US horse industry if it were to come here.

The United States (and virtually all other countries) require a myriad of tests and often quarantine prior to bringing in a foreign animal.

I can’t legally cross state lines in the United States with a horse or cow without a health certificate signed by a USDA accredited veterinarian stating that the animal has been inspected and found free of infectious disease. In most cases blood tests are also required. In fact I can’t legally cross the Snake River and ride my horse in Idaho without a health certificate and a negative blood test for Equine Infectious Anemia.

I’m not complaining; the United States of America, the States of Idaho and Washington as well as the other 48 states take the health of our livestock very seriously, and we have a very good record at keeping foreign animal diseases out of our country. I am happy to do my part to maintain biosecurity in our animal population.

If I am a resident of Liberia incubating Ebola, to enter the United States all I need to do is present a valid visa, and lie when asked if I have been exposed to Ebola. Within hours (no quarantine required) I can be walking the streets of any city in the United States.

I feel very fortunate to live in a country that values our animals so highly.

C'mon dude. African Horse Sickness and Equine Infectious Anemia are highly infectious and spread by biting insects, and even if not, horses are animals who cannot talk and so cannot present themselves for medical care, so they need to be more carefully screened than a human being.

Bad analogy is bad.

 whembly wrote:
Does anyone really believe that voluntarily observing the guidelines of the quarantine (21-day home quarantine) is going to be effective?

Sure. Ebola is pretty hard to transmit, and the people under the home quarantines are healthcare workers who understand it. More to the point, they are likely to strictly monitor their symptoms because they don't want to die of ebola, and it's been fairly clear I think that in the US the sooner you get treated, the more likely you are to live.

CDC now says EBOLA can be spread via sneezing.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/

I think we already knew that?

You take a face full of high velocity snot from a sick person and yes, you've got a good chance of catching whatever it is they've got.

It is still the whole 'droplet' thing though...

 Frazzled wrote:
CDC now says EBOLA can be spread via sneezing.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/

Cool, are we pretending again that we haven't actually covered all this in the thread already?

Hey guys, did you know a guy in Dallas has Ebola? Hope he recovers.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
CDC now says EBOLA can be spread via sneezing.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/

Cool, are we pretending again that we haven't actually covered all this in the thread already?

Hey guys, did you know a guy in Dallas has Ebola? Hope he recovers.

Like I told you, the derp in this thread mimics EVD...

It flares up out of nowhere, ramps up to harmful levels, a bunch of people get involved, it then whimpers out, and then next thing you know... BAM! There it is again and the whole process starts anew!

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
CDC now says EBOLA can be spread via sneezing.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/

Cool, are we pretending again that we haven't actually covered all this in the thread already?

Hey guys, did you know a guy in Dallas has Ebola? Hope he recovers.

Knowing Frazz and his posting habits, I'm guessing he posted that sarcastically

I'm not sure anymore...

 Ouze wrote:
C'mon dude. African Horse Sickness and Equine Infectious Anemia are highly infectious and spread by biting insects, and even if not, horses are animals who cannot talk and so cannot present themselves for medical care, so they need to be more carefully screened than a human being.

Bad analogy is bad.

I disagree. It goes to show that we *do* have effective quarantine policies.

Alright... seriously...

I think this is a prime example of a fundamental inability to communicate coherently and have any level of trust or confidence in anything. All of human interaction based on competing agendas and selfishness.

I still say that after all of the hubbub what we thought we knew about Ebola 6 months ago is still valid if people would take the time to think and reason together.

It is not as contagious as chicken pox and many other things. Simply being in the same room, same plane, same bus as someone who has it is not likely going to spread it. There is certainly no reason to suspect that bringing a patient into the US under proper measures like Brantley/Dr. Spencer/Other Infected poses any risk to the population. While lab studies and such can tell us the outer limits of what may be possible, experience shows that even a highly symptomatic person on an airplane without any precautions is not likely to spread it to others (the fellow who flew into Lagos if I understood that correctly), and even extended household contact like Duncan’s family/friends does not necessarily mean one can get it.

One should not expect some massive epidemic in the US.

That being said, it is a terrible and commonly fatal disease, and “an abundance of caution” is appropriate and as close as possible to elimination of risk of transmission is necessary.

You put these together and it should be clear that any significant precautions about international travel and some level of isolation of returning health care workers are perfectly reasonable and wise.

And both extremes of allowing people to do what they want and putting people in solitary confinement in a plastic tent are foolish starting places.

In the meantime, we can decide to allow worldwide disruption in travel, business, and the risk of West Africa scale of disasters erupting in other areas of crowding and poor sanitation around the world, or get serious about helping to contain and manage the source of the outbreak.

The problem with that is that current communications on this subject is FUBAR'ed and doesn't inspire confidence with the laymens.

Saying "Let the experts handle this...because, shut up!" isn't going to cut it.

That's why both Maine and California have instituted the mandatory quarantines.

 whembly wrote:
Does anyone really believe that voluntarily observing the guidelines of the quarantine (21-day home quarantine) is going to be effective?

Sure. Ebola is pretty hard to transmit, and the people under the home quarantines are healthcare workers who understand it. More to the point, they are likely to strictly monitor their symptoms because they don't want to die of ebola, and it's been fairly clear I think that in the US the sooner you get treated, the more likely you are to live.

I'm looking at this having a potential danger in future dangerous communicable diseases...

The reason we have coercive, non-voluntary quarantines is that we have learned through 4,000 years of recorded human history that people will not voluntarily self-quarantine, and will in fact act irrationally as willing agents of plague.

Ebola Dr. Spencer actually lied to police and insisted that he'd been boarded up at home during his period of quarantine. Only when they began checking his Metrocard (which records rides taken) did he start admitting he'd been out of his apartment, quite a lot.

It really only takes one person to cause mayham.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
CDC now says EBOLA can be spread via sneezing.

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/

Cool, are we pretending again that we haven't actually covered all this in the thread already?

Hey guys, did you know a guy in Dallas has Ebola? Hope he recovers.

Again... communication is largely the problem here...

Obviously whembley is right in saying pepple will not voluntarily quarantine themselves.

Look at the Maine nurse who is going out and riding her bike, etc.

As quickly as that NY ER doc came down with symptoms....you can see the potential for transmission while out in public. One day he felt fine and the next he was symptomatic and therefore contagious.

This chick is just being selfish and thumbing her nose at not only her state government, but she is also endangering those she may interact with simply because she wants to.

The incubation is 21 days.
At any point in that time frame you can start to become contagious with little to no warning.

The quarantine period is simply to ensure that if you are out bowling or clubbing or grocery shopping amd suddenly fall ill and vomit all over the floor....or sneeze on the cashier as they check you out....you aren't going to spread the disease.

Common sense and a bit of courtesy toward your fellow human beings.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Obviously whembley is right in saying pepple will not voluntarily quarantine themselves.

Look at the Maine nurse who is going out and riding her bike, etc.

As quickly as that NY ER doc came down with symptoms....you can see the potential for transmission while out in public. One day he felt fine and the next he was symptomatic and therefore contagious.

This chick is just being selfish and thumbing her nose at not only her state government, but she is also endangering those she may interact with simply because she wants to.

The incubation is 21 days.
At any point in that time frame you can start to become contagious with little to no warning.

The quarantine period is simply to ensure that if you are out bowling or clubbing or grocery shopping amd suddenly fall ill and vomit all over the floor....or sneeze on the cashier as they check you out....you aren't going to spread the disease.

Common sense and a bit of courtesy toward your fellow human beings.

Yes, lock yourself in your home for 21 days just because at some point you might become ill with a disease that is difficult to transmit in the US! I mean, the odds of another person catching it are pretty slim, unless you sneeze in their mouth or they play with your poop or possibly your dead body!

But what a selfish Nurse, having knowledge of the disease and how it is spread and full well using that knowledge to question people who are trying to imprison her in her home! Stop being selfish Nurse, listen to the people who are scared out of their mind and do not know what they are talking about!

That yellow text - please stop!

 Dreadwinter wrote:

But what a selfish Nurse, having knowledge of the disease and how it is spread and full well using that knowledge to question people who are trying to imprison her in her home! Stop being selfish Nurse, listen to the people who are scared out of their mind and do not know what they are talking about!

By her own statements, she has said that she had originally planned on "staying home" for 3 weeks or so once she got back to Maine. We don't really have much reason to doubt this.... If you want to point out her current behavior as an example of her "lying" about her intentions, well, I'd almost certainly do the same thing if I was basically imprisoned the way she was.

I will reiterate since you ignored my point:

At any point within that 21 day window you can suddenly and without warning develop symptoms of EVD which indicates that YOU ARE CONTAGIOUS and those aroune you are at risk of transmission.

Would you rather have a 10% chance of having your hand cut off or 0% chance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And would you feel comfortable knowing that your 10% risk is out of your control..
.?

 Alpharius wrote:
That yellow text - please stop!

I actually find it easier to read than the normal red everyone always uses.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

But what a selfish Nurse, having knowledge of the disease and how it is spread and full well using that knowledge to question people who are trying to imprison her in her home! Stop being selfish Nurse, listen to the people who are scared out of their mind and do not know what they are talking about!

By her own statements, she has said that she had originally planned on "staying home" for 3 weeks or so once she got back to Maine. We don't really have much reason to doubt this.... If you want to point out her current behavior as an example of her "lying" about her intentions, well, I'd almost certainly do the same thing if I was basically imprisoned the way she was.

This is incorrect. Her attorney said she agreed for two days.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/30/ebola-nurse-maine-quarantine/18166889/?csp=fbfanpage

 TheMeanDM wrote:
I will reiterate since you ignored my point:

At any point within that 21 day window you can suddenly and without warning develop symptoms of EVD which indicates that YOU ARE CONTAGIOUS and those aroune you are at risk of transmission.

Would you rather have a 10% chance of having your hand cut off or 0% chance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And would you feel comfortable knowing that your 10% risk is out of your control..
.?

That is absurd, what is the scenario I am in where my hand has a 10% chance of being cut off? Is it a scenario where I would have to put my hand under a blade as it was falling down? Because I know not to do that. Just like I know not to open my mouth for people to sneeze in to and not to play with poop or dead bodies.

I do not understand what you are trying to prove here.

Simple question deserves simple answer....no skating or extrapolating or weaseling.

Would you prefer a 10% chance to lose your hand or a 0% chance....and would you feel comfortable knowing that the 10% chance is actually out of your control?

The"What if/Just in case" scenario works better.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Simple question deserves simple answer....no skating or extrapolating or weaseling.

Would you prefer a 10% chance to lose your hand or a 0% chance....and would you feel comfortable knowing that the 10% chance is actually out of your control?

@TheMeanDM Actually, a better response would be the aftermath of Siegel v. Shinnick, 219 F.Supp. 789 (E.D. NY 1963), the plaintiff was confined for 14 days on her return from a “smallpox infected area” abroad, despite a lack of any evidence of direct exposure or symptoms. Eerily similar to this situation. To wit, the court upheld the action, noting:

[The] judgment required is that of a public health officer and not of a lawyer used to insist on positive evidence to support action; their task is to measure risk to the public and to seek for what can reassure and, not finding it, to proceed reasonably to make the public health secure. They deal in a terrible context and the consequences of mistaken indulgence can be irretrievably tragic. To supercede their judgment there must be a reliable showing of error.

I find it interesting that California, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois are implementing quarantines to contain any potential exposures until after the virus’ incubation period.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Simple question deserves simple answer....no skating or extrapolating or weaseling.

Would you prefer a 10% chance to lose your hand or a 0% chance....and would you feel comfortable knowing that the 10% chance is actually out of your control?

No no, I want you to explain how this relates.

Federal Government does not have a Ebola Policy/Regulation/SOP. As already pointed out earlier in the thread (yesterday) the State are within their right to implement a plan of their own in dealing with international arrivals who might be infected and showing signs.

Besides I've to deal with this rodeo in a couple weeks when I come back from Thailand completing some business there. If WA follow the states that already implemented a plan then who am I to argue with them if they decide to throw me in a plastic bubble tent. In that 21 days I should have completed all the Robotech stuff I've brought and pretty much become a subject matter expert on the rules and converting battletech vehicles to robotech standards to throw in the game......

21 DAYS WITHOUT A CELL PHONE!!!! WOOT

 whembly wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Simple question deserves simple answer....no skating or extrapolating or weaseling.

Would you prefer a 10% chance to lose your hand or a 0% chance....and would you feel comfortable knowing that the 10% chance is actually out of your control?

@TheMeanDM Actually, a better response would be the aftermath of Siegel v. Shinnick, 219 F.Supp. 789 (E.D. NY 1963), the plaintiff was confined for 14 days on her return from a “smallpox infected area” abroad, despite a lack of any evidence of direct exposure or symptoms. Eerily similar to this situation. To wit, the court upheld the action, noting:

[The] judgment required is that of a public health officer and not of a lawyer used to insist on positive evidence to support action; their task is to measure risk to the public and to seek for what can reassure and, not finding it, to proceed reasonably to make the public health secure. They deal in a terrible context and the consequences of mistaken indulgence can be irretrievably tragic. To supercede their judgment there must be a reliable showing of error.

I find it interesting that California, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois are implementing quarantines to contain any potential exposures until after the virus’ incubation period.

Which is all well and good... But for feth's sake, give the quarantined lady some Cable TV or something I mean, I get it... We can't really know the extent of what REALLY went down, because we're coming into a situation where Politician says, "She's sick" and she's saying "No I'm not!!!" and we go back and forth until really we're getting this lady saying "I'm LOUDER THAN YOU SO I'M RIGHT!!!!"

I can understand the desire and emplacement of quarantine procedures, but there's still a right way and a wrong way to do it, and if you believe anything of what the nurse says, treating people like "prisoners" is the wrong way.

 Jihadin wrote:
Federal Government does not have a Ebola Policy/Regulation/SOP. As already pointed out earlier in the thread (yesterday) the State are within their right to implement a plan of their own in dealing with international arrivals who might be infected and showing signs.

Besides I've to deal with this rodeo in a couple weeks when I come back from Thailand completing some business there. If WA follow the states that already implemented a plan then who am I to argue with them if they decide to throw me in a plastic bubble tent. In that 21 days I should have completed all the Robotech stuff I've brought and pretty much become a subject matter expert on the rules and converting battletech vehicles to robotech standards to throw in the game......

21 DAYS WITHOUT A CELL PHONE!!!! WOOT

So, Politicians who do not know what they are talking about are imprisoning Americans for "The Greater Good". Right, that has never gone wrong.

 daedalus wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
That yellow text - please stop!

I actually find it easier to read than the normal red everyone always uses.

The majority of the world does not though, so again, please stop.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

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