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I love how everyone wants the only things that keep Necrons from being utterly garbage nerfed.

Problem: Necrons suck at CC.
Solution: give them an ability that makes a character not suck at CC.
Remove said ability and they will go back to sucking at CC.

Problem: Necrons have no dedicated AA defenses.
Solution: give them a gun that is effective against airborne threats.
Remove said gun's effectiveness and Necrons become super vulnerable to flyers (unless they bring tons of their own flyers).

Etc.

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the calls for nerfing are disproportionate to what will realistically be adjusted.

 skoffs wrote:

Problem: Necrons have no dedicated AA defenses.
Solution: give them a gun that is effective against airborne threats.

Triarch Stalkers are suppossed to have advanced targeting arrays. Giving them optional Skyfire would possibly help address the lack of AA, and possibly see them be used more often.

 skoffs wrote:
I love how everyone wants the only things that keep Necrons from being utterly garbage nerfed.

Problem: Necrons suck at CC.
Solution: give them an ability that makes a character not suck at CC.
Remove said ability and they will go back to sucking at CC.

Problem: Necrons have no dedicated AA defenses.
Solution: give them a gun that is effective against airborne threats.
Remove said gun's effectiveness and Necrons become super vulnerable to flyers (unless they bring tons of their own flyers).

Etc.

Problem: Dark Eldar suck at survivability
Solution: Give them an ability to make them more survivable
Reduce effectiveness of said ability returns them to having survivability issues

Problem: Dark Eldar have no dedicated AA defenses.
Solution: Never give them a gun that is effective against airborne threats.
As it never existed said gun's effectiveness left Dark Eldar super vulnerable to flyers (unless they bring tons of their own flyers).


Sadly your argument, though logical, will not help the Necrons any more than it did the Dark Eldar.

 skoffs wrote:
I love how everyone wants the only things that keep Necrons from being utterly garbage nerfed.

Problem: Necrons suck at CC.
Solution: give them an ability that makes a character not suck at CC.
Remove said ability and they will go back to sucking at CC.

Problem: Necrons have no dedicated AA defenses.
Solution: give them a gun that is effective against airborne threats.
Remove said gun's effectiveness and Necrons become super vulnerable to flyers (unless they bring tons of their own flyers).

Etc.

1. Remind everyone how wraiths, destroyer lords, spyders and scarabs suck at close combat again?

2. Now remind everyone how dedicated transport fliers with TL high volume S7 shots are not dedicated AA?

 Red Corsair wrote:
1. Remind everyone how wraiths, destroyer lords, spyders and scarabs suck at close combat again?

2. Now remind everyone how dedicated transport fliers with TL high volume S7 shots are not dedicated AA?

Yes, at the moment they are good, but the point I was trying to make was, if they're going to nerf Necrons as bad as all these people want them to, do you really think any of those things are going to retain their effectiveness? A Destroyer Lord without MSS will no longer be as much of a threat. Wraiths are almost certain to be hit hard by the nerf bat. Spyders and Scarabs are probably going to change too, while they're at it. Everyone will be amazed if Night Scythes retain anywhere near their functionality, let alone remain dedicated transports.

TL;DR- Necrons don't suck right now. If they lose everything that makes them half decent, they're gonna suck hard.

col_impact wrote:

Tesla doesn't work better when snap firing. You average 1.333 hits per shot normally and 0.917 hits per shot snap firing.

Chariots were designed with their ability to ignore small arms fire in mind. Welcome to 7th. I doubt they will make changes that were specifically introduced in 7th.

Normal Tesla, no, but TL tesla works out to slightly more hits. Don't have the math on me though.

Just because they made the change to chariots in 7th does not mean it is a good change. They added the broken Invisibility in 7th, and gutted the terrain/ruins section for no apparent reason.

Just because these things ought to be balanced does not mean that we non-necron players want the codex nerfed into the ground, there is a focus on what needs toned down, but nothing really on what can be improved.

I'd personally like to see Triarch Stalkers get a skyfire option, Praetorians to get 2+ armor, flayed ones to pick up fear and shred, destroyers to become jet infantry, and for C'Tan shards and Transcendent C'Tan to be merged into one C'Tan entry that is halfway in power between the two.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Tesla doesn't work better when snap firing. You average 1.333 hits per shot normally and 0.917 hits per shot snap firing.

Chariots were designed with their ability to ignore small arms fire in mind. Welcome to 7th. I doubt they will make changes that were specifically introduced in 7th.

Normal Tesla, no, but TL tesla works out to slightly more hits. Don't have the math on me though.

The math is worked out for TL tesla bs 4.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Normal Tesla, no, but TL tesla works out to slightly more hits. Don't have the math on me though.

Just because they made the change to chariots in 7th does not mean it is a good change. They added the broken Invisibility in 7th, and gutted the terrain/ruins section for no apparent reason.

Just because these things ought to be balanced does not mean that we non-necron players want the codex nerfed into the ground, there is a focus on what needs toned down, but nothing really on what can be improved.

I'd personally like to see Triarch Stalkers get a skyfire option, Praetorians to get 2+ armor, flayed ones to pick up fear and shred, destroyers to become jet infantry, and for C'Tan shards and Transcendent C'Tan to be merged into one C'Tan entry that is halfway in power between the two.

I did that math, you are still shooting at around 70% efficiency when Jinking. So Jinking still lowers your total hits.

The issue isn't jinking, snap shotting, Tesla, or TL; it's twin-linked Tesla while snap shotting due to a Jink.
Immortals with Tesla aren't an issue when they overwatch.
There isn't really an issue with Immortals and AB's vs Flyers and Invisibility.

It becomes an issue when you combine the four! And if you nerf one out of four, you will end up with three things that need buffs.
The main concern is that they will indeed change the 'real' issue and do nothing to counter the nerfs in the other areas.

It's only an issue for some people because people not playing necrons want it to be.

Twin linked Tesla snap firing are not better than twin linked Tesla firing normaly.

NO ONE has an issue with Twin Linked Tesla firing normally.

 skoffs wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
1. Remind everyone how wraiths, destroyer lords, spyders and scarabs suck at close combat again?

2. Now remind everyone how dedicated transport fliers with TL high volume S7 shots are not dedicated AA?

Yes, at the moment they are good, but the point I was trying to make was, if they're going to nerf Necrons as bad as all these people want them to, do you really think any of those things are going to retain their effectiveness? A Destroyer Lord without MSS will no longer be as much of a threat. Wraiths are almost certain to be hit hard by the nerf bat. Spyders and Scarabs are probably going to change too, while they're at it. Everyone will be amazed if Night Scythes retain anywhere near their functionality, let alone remain dedicated transports.

TL;DR- Necrons don't suck right now. If they lose everything that makes them half decent, they're gonna suck hard.

Necrons as a whole are not good at CC because of their terrible initiative and most models completely lacking a CC weapon. Arguable Necrons do have the best CC weapon in the game that only certain Necron lords/overlords or destroyer lords can take. We can take a unit with SIX models that is good in CC, we can take a HQ choice that is good at CC except that it can't take an invul save of any kind (but most HQs, not all but most, are good at CC), and a monstrous creature that is ok, I wouldn't call it good by any stretch, and a swarm model that is good in CC against vehicles. In fact, I would say aside from wraiths, Necron CC is terrible unless it is against non-walker vehicles.

I have to agree about the transports being awesome AA. S7 weapons against most fliers will be autowin. The ones we have a hard time with, everyone has a hard time with (helturkeys and Storm ravens).

 adamsouza wrote:
It's only an issue for some people because people not playing necrons want it to be.

Twin linked Tesla snap firing are not better than twin linked Tesla firing normaly.

NO ONE has an issue with Twin Linked Tesla firing normally.

Plenty of people have a problem with it at its current points cost.

This is why pretty much everybody expects Annihilation Barges to jump about 50 pts in price.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
It's only an issue for some people because people not playing necrons want it to be.

Twin linked Tesla snap firing are not better than twin linked Tesla firing normaly.

NO ONE has an issue with Twin Linked Tesla firing normally.

Plenty of people have a problem with it at its current points cost.

This is why pretty much everybody expects Annihilation Barges to jump about 50 pts in price.

Well I think the problem is that they are just idiotically cheap for what they can do..I dont think it has anything to do with tesla's advantage when snap firing. If thats the case you have a problem with tesla's core mechanic.. not an advantage in an infrequent scenario.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
It's only an issue for some people because people not playing necrons want it to be.

Twin linked Tesla snap firing are not better than twin linked Tesla firing normaly.

NO ONE has an issue with Twin Linked Tesla firing normally.

Plenty of people have a problem with it at its current points cost.

This is why pretty much everybody expects Annihilation Barges to jump about 50 pts in price.

We've just had 7 pages of people allledging Tesla working on the snap fire being too good, and few complaints about it's cost, so aying pretty much everyone would appear to be an exaggeration.

The AB may indeed be in line for a points bump, but a 50 point bump is greater than a 50% increase in cost of the model, and would be an unprecidented points change in 40K.

EDIT: Most of the whining about Tesla may have been in the Necron Wishlist thread.

 Davespil wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

• FoC changes coming for the codex. Focus on different Dynasties making different lists (bonuses granted, certain units "allowed", etc.)

Not buying it. They could have done the same thing with Ork clans and they didn't. I also believe that the days of certain units making other units into troops is also over. They are doing that to make people get used to running unbound.

I realize I'm a little late to the punch, but I just want to point out that the Ork Clans are vastly different from Necron Dynasties. At the end of the day, an Ork is an Ork and they'll always band together to krump non-orks. Multiple clans are frequently represented in a Warband, are nearly always present in a town, and -are- always present in a waaagh.

Necrons are not the same. The dynasties largely act on their own. They -will- band together, but it's much rarer and doesn't last nearly as long.

I'm just starting a Necron army, but in reading the book and going through two 7th edition charges (GK and DE) it's starting to become clear which was this stuff is going to go.

As much as I hate it, there is a move to oversimplify the rules. Reanimation protocols will get boring and just become FNP, likely with the res orb simply boosting the FNP roll.

MSS will go, absolutely guaranteed. I think it's a neat item and not for OP reasons, but it's a complicated rule in the fight subphase. If they remain it's going to be something weird like HoW hits.

Entropic strike is going to become boring old armorbane. Again it's a rule that requires book keeping, and they hate book keeping in this edition.

I wager that gauss gets hit since this is a mech-heavy edition and simply becomes rending. That will make it much better vs. troops, however.

I'm assuming telsa will lose its bonus hits in favor of getting shred.

Auswin,
Granted... there has been a push to simply the codex rules, remove loopholes and increase the general coherency of the rules. That being said, they don't seem to be removing identifying rules from codices... at least not yet.
Reanimation Protocols has operated basically the same way since the army's introduction... Everliving was added to this last codex to allow characters to get back up with operating along.
Likewise, Gauss has operated the same way since the beginning , and it works with hull points than it did in 5th... though I would be very happy if it changed to rending (Eldar effectively have it on their shrunken weapons).

Minor change to the top post,
From Lords Of Wargaming

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

https://www.facebook.com/Lordsofwargaming/posts/623163987810383

 skoffs wrote:
Minor change to the top post,

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

Who is the source for this?

 Sasori wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Minor change to the top post,

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

Who is the source for this?

Sandy Claus.

It's a lie.

I look forward to something in a new codex "NERFING" the (command) barges and all the twin-linked flyer nonsense that so many players call their strategy (which is a wrong statement for more than one reason...)
At least these units should have to cost more points.

And i am not a "hater", i have Necron, 2 armies of more than 2k and most models ever made.
I currently don't play the "barge" army because that's broken and a no-brainer (and i do have a brain).

I hope for a codex that is a bit more balanced on the whole.
To make some units a bit better and others a bit less good.

And i even expect that to happen, because that is what GW does with most codexes, "nerve" the things that where broken and sold the most and make the other things and/or new models better options.

 Sasori wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Minor change to the top post,

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

Who is the source for this?

Oh, sorry. I cited it in the top post but forgot to include the citation in the comment quote: it was Lords Of Wargaming (comment reply via their Facebook page).

I'll fix it now.

ORicK wrote:

I hope for a codex that is a bit more balanced on the whole.
To make some units a bit better and others a bit less good.

And i even expect that to happen, because that is what GW does with most codexes, "nerve" the things that where broken and sold the most and make the other things and/or new models better options.

I expect GW to vastly overshoot...
Were Grey Knight Strike Squads so good that they had to increase the cost 4 points per guy even after taking away psybolt ammo? Why did nob bikers need the nerf bat after taking away their option to have a non-HQ painboy?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Why did nob bikers need the nerf bat after taking away their option to have a non-HQ painboy?

Because they wanted you to buy more Warbikers.

The changes in the Ork codex gently nudge people to buy more Warbikes and Tankbustas.

People keep talking about nerfs for Necrons, while I think we'll see changes more along the line that will increase sales of underperforming kits sales like the lychguard and Triarch Stalker boxes

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Minor change to the top post,

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

Who is the source for this?

Oh, sorry. I cited it in the top post but forgot to include the citation in the comment quote: it was Lords Of Wargaming (comment reply via their Facebook page).

I'll fix it now.

Awesome. I would really like this to come true.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Why did nob bikers need the nerf bat after taking away their option to have a non-HQ painboy?

Because they wanted you to buy more Warbikers.

The changes in the Ork codex gently nudge people to buy more Warbikes and Tankbustas.

People keep talking about nerfs for Necrons, while I think we'll see changes more along the line that will increase sales of underperforming kits sales like the lychguard and Triarch Stalker boxes

Obviously, but the same logic would suggest the Flayed ones should be awesome right now... and they aren't. Moonwalking finecast and all, they still hamstrung by the core rules. However, I would be interested in sales numbers for the necron line as a whole... which sku's are the best sellers. Even information at the store level would be telling.

I was also commenting that a well balanced codex was something that we really can't expect to happen... just because GW does this kind of thing.

 Sasori wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Minor change to the top post,

The models won't change. Armies will be generated along dynasties. Maybe one focuses on Destroyers and one focuses on immortals and so on.

... the Destroyer bit definitely got my attention.
(Red Harvest Cults, anyone?)

Who is the source for this?

Oh, sorry. I cited it in the top post but forgot to include the citation in the comment quote: it was Lords Of Wargaming (comment reply via their Facebook page).

I'll fix it now.

Awesome. I would really like this to come true.

Well, at the moment we have little reason to doubt them. They've got a stellar rumor reporting track record thus far, so I'd assume there's no reason for them to start making stuff up now.

I think it's quite amusing that anyone could believe that Necrons of all things might get their own version of "Chapter Tactics," or any kind of force-org modifications.

Seperate FoC for variant X with some generic special rule to buff them a little? Sure, Supplement with 6 more, almost guaranteed, but you lot are dreaming if you think that after all the codexes to get what flavour they had ripped out and go un-replaced, Necrons would get the special treatment. Guard didn't get their regiments, Orks didn't get Klanz or notable WAAAAGHs, Tyranids and Dark Eldar got nothing but nerfs and destruction of viable, flavourful builds; this is, somewhat ironically, not the edition of flavour.

I still expect Crypteks to be "streamlined" to confer some BRB USR, with maybe one unique element, and just about anything which isn't a BRB USR to be stripped or replaced with the closest equivalent. Tesla and Gauss will probably be the only unique element to Necrons, and I can't even begin to fathom what they'll do with Reanimation Protocals? Just a FNP like was suggested earlier sounds quite possible, given the current trend of streamlining.

I know this sounds terribly cynical, but there's too many codexes behind is indicating a certain development path.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

ORicK wrote:

I hope for a codex that is a bit more balanced on the whole.
To make some units a bit better and others a bit less good.

And i even expect that to happen, because that is what GW does with most codexes, "nerve" the things that where broken and sold the most and make the other things and/or new models better options.

I expect GW to vastly overshoot...
Were Grey Knight Strike Squads so good that they had to increase the cost 4 points per guy even after taking away psybolt ammo? Why did nob bikers need the nerf bat after taking away their option to have a non-HQ painboy?

Grey Knight Strike squads are the exact same price base as they used to be.
Nob Bikers could have used a points drop, but overall stayed the same price- nob dropped 2 points, bike went up 2, so same as before. Nob Bikers got hit more by edition changes, loss of painboy in the unit, and no longer being troops than they did any points increase.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I think it's quite amusing that anyone could believe that Necrons of all things might get their own version of "Chapter Tactics," or any kind of force-org modifications.

Like I said, at the moment, we have no reason not to believe them. (Lords Of Wargaming are 6 and 0 for accurate rumor reporting. Their source was spot on for info on the last few codex, so if they say "expect X for army Y", there's a fairly decent chance they're telling the truth).

I could see either/ or happening, really.

Either they streamline everything into the brb spec rules or they start a 'new' 7th edition trend and inject super special everything into the Necrons codex to make it super special. Remember: when things change, there's always a first book that does it!

This would effectively make IG, Orks, GK, and DE players hate life to the fullest extent possible.

So sounds a bit more realistic all the time now that I think about it...