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twinner wrote:
Hey guys I myself have had a very bad experience with BTP. While I only got a hive tyrant painted, I paid $250 or so to have it painted and converted. The conversion budget was $120. For this budget all they did was bend the tail back and drill a hole in the model. I had originally sent them reference photos of a hive tyrant swooping in to get his prey, the wings were converted, the legs and the tail as well. In this case, all they did was the tail, and one leg the cut and fixed quite horribly. They had actually originally just sent me a pic of the model with the hole drilled for basing and the tail was just stock asking if it was ok to move to painting. I called them up and asked was $120 really worth them drilling one hole?Now painting wise I only paid for lvl 5 and it was ok, it is just the conversion that really got me. When I brought this up to Shawn he was not helpful at all, he kept saying it up to you what you want, I asked for a partial refund and he said if that is what you want, in the end I just counted my loss. Please see the attached video for reference. Let me know if you have any other questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo2ZhyZl3k

The conversion budget is a huge problem. I actually did not get SOME of the conversions i asked for. (I did most of the converting, i did not make the blunderbusses)
Sorry this happened to someone else. If you were in thee states i would start a class action with you. The best we can do is make sure this doesnt happen to anyone else.
There are good companies out there and they should not suffer because of a bad one.


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 Red Corsair wrote:
@tenebre
Ask him for a full refund on service in exchange for the army.

But i did a lot of work finding OOP models and converting them, not to mention the $2k i paid FW. so that deal leaves me out time and money and gives him an army to sell for a profit. That just doesnt seem right.

Another reason why I prefer to paint my own models. I get to pick out all the details that I want and go back and touch up the models as much as I want. There are times where I feel that painting is too time consuming and a pain to do, but once I see a completely finished model that I myself painted, I feel a great sense of accomplishment.

Honestly small claims court is about $250 to file and special service fees. Even if you win and he doesnt pay, you can put a lien against his business and he wont ever be able to get a loan or other such business practices without satisfying the lien first.

There should be consumer laws for this. The difficulty is the time and money it takes to get your money if they put up a fight.

But if they fail to abide by the service they offered, they MUST ensure they offer compensation or refund you. It doesnt matter that they put "no refunds" they still have to do it. I cant just put no refund on all items in my store. It doesnt work like that. Very few items are allowed to have no refund and those are things such as underwear and so on.

So if I were you, I would be compiling ALL the emails exchanged (emails are important for this) and printing them out, sorting them in order and taking photos.

First get the emails that contain what you asked for. Have 2 copies, write notes all over one version, and have one clean one. Take photos of the units and put them with what you asked for. Write what is missing. This includes things like "level 6" and so on. Have every detail fleshed out and compared to the final product.

Then get all the emails that have something to do with the time it took, and the communication. On their site it will say they communicate as the job goes by. So print that and compare that to the emails you had that showed progress and so on. Write how long it took and how long was quoted.

Get every single promise, initial agreement and contact and compare it with the final product in picture.

Then go see a legal adviser or take it to court or whatever. Have everything prepared BEFORE you go in. Dates, emails, photos, links and costs etc.

If what you are telling us is true and once you have all this info handy dont talk to the guy again. The more you talk the more crap you get into to. He has given you his options and you arent happy with them. Plus I dont think they fill in their legal obligations but I could be wrong (not sure what your laws are etc). So fight them.

It will cost them more than it will cost you at the end of the day. They have wages that need to be paid, company time will be used and if they lose then all the time spent on the project (however much) is also lost. If they are smart they wont let it happen again because situations like this will hurt their reputation and their coffers.

I think so anyway.

 Swastakowey wrote:
There should be consumer laws for this. The difficulty is the time and money it takes to get your money if they put up a fight.

But if they fail to abide by the service they offered, they MUST ensure they offer compensation or refund you. It doesnt matter that they put "no refunds" they still have to do it. I cant just put no refund on all items in my store. It doesnt work like that. Very few items are allowed to have no refund and those are things such as underwear and so on.

So if I were you, I would be compiling ALL the emails exchanged (emails are important for this) and printing them out, sorting them in order and taking photos.

First get the emails that contain what you asked for. Have 2 copies, write notes all over one version, and have one clean one. Take photos of the units and put them with what you asked for. Write what is missing. This includes things like "level 6" and so on. Have every detail fleshed out and compared to the final product.

Then get all the emails that have something to do with the time it took, and the communication. On their site it will say they communicate as the job goes by. So print that and compare that to the emails you had that showed progress and so on. Write how long it took and how long was quoted.

Get every single promise, initial agreement and contact and compare it with the final product in picture.

Then go see a legal adviser or take it to court or whatever. Have everything prepared BEFORE you go in. Dates, emails, photos, links and costs etc.

If what you are telling us is true and once you have all this info handy dont talk to the guy again. The more you talk the more crap you get into to. He has given you his options and you arent happy with them. Plus I dont think they fill in their legal obligations but I could be wrong (not sure what your laws are etc). So fight them.

It will cost them more than it will cost you at the end of the day. They have wages that need to be paid, company time will be used and if they lose then all the time spent on the project (however much) is also lost. If they are smart they wont let it happen again because situations like this will hurt their reputation and their coffers.

I think so anyway.

All is done. I play WH with 2 lawyers actually. I recorded a video today going over the contract line by line. Once he responds to criticisms of his offer and I make a final decision I will post the result. I am trying to avoid internet arguing and want to simply show facts and results not conjecture and grand standing.
I have every email exchange and when i was going through it, the result is far worse than i ever let on in the review.

Awesome dude, well im glad you are doing that.

Lets hope they take the easy way then.

Good luck.

over/under on BTP disappearing mysteriously before this guy gets him money back? \

Portions redacted; be polite. --Janthkin

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
over/under on BTP disappearing mysteriously before this guy gets him money back?

Not too likely IMO. It's a big financial loss, but not a fatal one. BTP can pay off the OP's demands and people will continue to fall for their scam.

Yeah. It might shake up the company a good deal, but not so much to require a vanishing act.

Plus, he has got himself into a position where he can't really disappear. Way too much invested into it in terms of property and people.

I was wondering why they suddenly put up a video about the behind the scenes painting process talking about how artists communicate with customers and how they don't have a backlog with their "to do" shelf being so empty. I was considering using them for my remaining 40k minis that I have no interest in painting due to a lack of interest in GW and their game and corporate changes but there is no way in hell I'd send them a squad of all characters so that they can just paint them quick with an airbrush and some drybrushing.

 Peregrine wrote:
From their rules:

There are no cash refunds except at the discretion of BTP. We are willing to re-work a project or possibly give a store credit. But money in is a one-way trip. Rule of Acquisition #1.

Which could explain some of their bizarre behavior, and is a very good reason to never buy anything from them.

Man, I love Star Trek as much as any nerd with a Facebook profile pic of him and Patrick Stewart, but when one is quoting the Ferengi in business, you've gone to a strange and not positive place.

That said, we know he doesn't follow the Rules of Acquisition. There was a fe-male (if you've seen the episode in question, this is a killer reference) in one of their vids who was fully clothed.

... the Ferengi don't allow their women to be clothed and have an odd way of pronouncing female, I'll get my coat and see myself out.

Anyway, these folks did the Robotech Tactics figures up for Palladium Books when they went to Gencon this year. It got some scorn and mockery, but I didn't quite grasp what the big deal was.

Now I do.

 warboss wrote:
I was wondering why they suddenly put up a video about the behind the scenes painting process talking about how artists communicate with customers and how they don't have a backlog with their "to do" shelf being so empty. I was considering using them for my remaining 40k minis that I have no interest in painting due to a lack of interest in GW and their game and corporate changes but there is no way in hell I'd send them a squad of all characters so that they can just paint them quick with an airbrush and some drybrushing.

wow I need to watch that. I asked for the artist to call me before they start and was promised they would. I was NEVER allowed to speak to any artist. When i post the video of his response you will see even more detail some of their practices.
I request WiP pictures for 7 weeks straight and was told "later this week" every time. I saw the army the same day as the rest of the internet did for the first time.

 Forar wrote:

Anyway, these folks did the Robotech Tactics figures up for Palladium Books when they went to Gencon this year. It got some scorn and mockery, but I didn't quite grasp what the big deal was.
Now I do.

I have also read a poor review of the Robotech gencon displays, didn't know it was BTP!

Are they referring to these?

Yep. The pieces they used for actual demo games were painted by volunteer fanboys, but those in the picture are 'display quality'.

Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?

winterdyne wrote:
Yep. The pieces they used for actual demo games were painted by volunteer fanboys, but those in the picture are 'display quality'.

Ummmmmm, yeeesh...


If I was Palladium, I'd be furious about that, this does not show their minis in a favorable light at all and that affects their sales when you're taking them to show off at one of the largest cons on earth.

 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?

Hasn't Warseer done similar before? They seen a bit quick to run from legal threats. There's no libel here, the thread comments on a product/service review put on YouTube. BTP may not like it, but they'll have to address the issues more effectively.

I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?

Hasn't Warseer done similar before? They seen a bit quick to run from legal threats. There's no libel here, the thread comments on a product/service review put on YouTube. BTP may not like it, but they'll have to address the issues more effectively.

Yeah, the OP has been very civil about it imo and the fact that some posters in the thread used the words "scam" or "fraud" is certainly not enough to close it down. If Warseer chickened out after being threatened by BTP it's a real shame - things like this need to get out in the open so that potential customers can make informed decisions. BTP's public image just took another nosedive.


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tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.

So did Warseer remove your thread?

I've just started watching this video but, I can't shake it, isn't this guy featured in Louis Theroux's weird weekends?

Dead ringer for him if not!

tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.

If I were you, I'd offer that they give you a full refund and then you'll pull the YT videos and forum posts.

Or you could just offer that whatever they do to fix it, you'll amend the video (change the description or add annotation) and forum posts (edit the first post) to reflect what they did to rectify the problem.

 Acephale wrote:
Hmm.... The thread on Warseer that the OP made about this whole affair seems to be mysteriously gone, just after some guy posted about how BTP could take legal action if the thread wasn't locked/removed.

You know anything about this, OP?

Yes,
I have received a few "threats" from random accounts on YT and WS about BTP might sue me.

While i can sue them and have already sought legal action, they have no case against me. I posted a product review. Nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

tenebre wrote:
I received an email from BTP last night to the effect they are still trying to figure this out...

Which obviously means demanding it be removed from all forums and YT.

It is nothing more than an honest review and showcase of their work.

If I were you, I'd offer that they give you a full refund and then you'll pull the YT videos and forum posts.

Or you could just offer that whatever they do to fix it, you'll amend the video (change the description or add annotation) and forum posts (edit the first post) to reflect what they did to rectify the problem.

I always offered to gladly post a video with their resolution and I still will. The problem is all his resolutions came with the caveat of immediate "repair" in other words removal of everything. This is unethical.
I have no problem telling the truth but the have yet to rectify anything. So far they have spent time finding ways to remove my review instead of just working with me.

So far they have spent time finding ways to remove my review instead of just working with me.

Unfortunately for you, from their standpoint it may make a lot of sense to do this. Any working with you is going to take time (if they were to repaint) or cash (to refund) and cash flow is likely an issue with a company using this business model. They may not have available liquid funds to use for a big refund. Any time involved is time in which your review and forum topics like this one are still up and active which is undoubtedly costing them new business which further exacerbates cash flow problems.

Getting rid of your review (and squelching associated social media/forum topics) they feel are hurting/slowing business is going to be a priority for them.

I watched your video twice and I feel for you tenebre.
I hope you will get a minimum 50% refund and/or win a court case!

It is a sad story about commissioning services and the quality they deliver really...

Years back I evaluated to have things done at BTP, since they were the first studio to use youtube successfully to promote themselves.

Back in those times I decided to not take that route, because I was worried about the quality delivered and the communication (time difference Germany/US) and seriously didn't trust them.

I remember this one overenthusiastic guy, jumping around/moderating the videos... he might appeal to some, but to me he was annoying.

One should be realistic about expectations towards the quality and look at what they charge. If you pay 17 USD (~14 EUR) for getting a standard mini painted I say thats not even close to enough to cover the manpower needed to achieve the highest display expectations!

I am a slow painter, maybe I lack the routine, but I know I need hours to pick out details, paint gems, shadings, highlights, face details etc... so I doubt even a PRO could paint a mini better than I do in less than 3 hours.

If BTP was no business but a single person doing comissions, he might cover his costs, but even then its less than 5 EUR brutoo per hour of work!

Nobody works for this money here in Germany... decent work for this amount of money is maybe only possible in Eastern Europe, but surely not the US!

I recently checked German paint services and their quality is horrible, even the highest class! Luckily I visited them personally to see what they do... The quality is surely OK for tabletop standard, but if they label the highest quality "showcase or pro painted" it is just silly.

Then I compared with a polish service (denofimagination.com) and they are very nice people, BUT i saw my buddies army, painted there. He is very happy, but I was shocked when he told me what he paid for the quality received... some awesome freehands mixed with some solid tabletop standard...

tl;dr you will never get showcase/golden demon standard with custom bases and modifications from commissions without paying 5-10 hours work time per model.

at least that is my experience and this is why i do it myself :-)

I feel like them asking for the video to be taken down is kind of dishonest. The critique is valid and honest, and frankly, you can't whitewash that. Instead, you should be reaching in all earnestness so that you can get the original guy to post that everything was resolved to his satisfaction instead of trying to censor everything. But with this kind of attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried using C&D letters to try and get you to take down the video

PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.

These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.

 Breotan wrote:
Take the partial refund and call it done. It's probably the best offer you'll get.

I think I agree, if you're looking for a refund.

Your choices are A.) Trying to get a refund from your payment provider, B.) Suing, C.) Going to small claims, or D.) trying to leverage public opinion into a full refund.

A.) This is either the best option or the worst option. If you paid with a credit card, you can likely pressure them for a chargeback even if it's outside their normal claim window if you explain the circumstances. On the other hand, if it was Paypal, even if the facts are 100% on your side you're probably going to get boned and since the facts are in dispute, your chances of prevailing are... iffy.

B.) Suing is probably a bad idea. You probably will spend substantially more than the army cost to litigate, and you run the risk of hey, guess what, someone in his family is an out-of-work lawyer who will work for free, so now you're in it forever! Even if you win it's a Games Workshop style Pyrrhic victory.

C.) Small claims is a great option depending on what you're out. Was it $900? If so, this would work, but someone else said $6 or 7 grand? This is probably well above the small claims cap. Additionally, there is a lot of hassle involved with small claims, and a lot of time spent, and you're assuming you will win. The facts seem cut and dried to you but "pro-painted" is a pretty subjective concept even for the initiated, let along whoever might be judging your case.

D.) Leveraging public opinion - this is really the last resort and I think it won't work here. At this point the barn door is open and the horses are gone. They have no reason not to stand firm on what they already offered and just give non-statements to the effect of they made multiple fair offers to resolve the complaint but they can't speak any more to the confidential details of a client's account.


If you want the least headache, you should just take the offered partial refund.


The thing I don't get about this is - they have a video up showing their painting levels:




And they sort of all look pretty terrible. I mean, what you got seems pretty good relative to what they claim to sell. Even the highest levels offered aren't particularly great to my eye.

Bora77 wrote:
PS: why do you not write how much you paid exactly? I am interested to know how much they actually charged you for the mixed quality you received.

He says in the video that the painting cost 4x what he paid for the army.

 M0ff3l wrote:
These models do definately not look level 4.

I would just ask them to refund me the difference between these level 2/3 models and the level 4-6 you paid for.

Also you sigh after every sentence and it is really annoying to watch, especially if you do it 46 fething minutes long.

Seriously? You can bet your bottom $ I would be sighing too if I'd spent a few K$ on that. I've watched the vid a couple of times now and even showed it to gamer friends, who are agreed, it is such a waste to see such fantastic models painted that way.