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Instead of all the skepticism and victim shaming, let's let the models speak for themselves when the repaint is done.

It really doesn't matter what Shawn has done with the money, the the real crime here is the paint job BTP did on those models. I won't rest until I know each and every one of them looks like something that's worthy of a tabletop.

I am going to bow out of this discussion.
We clearly have differing standards on critical thinking and rationality. That is an issue we can work with and discuss.

But some things will stop a conversion dead......and here it is;

 techsoldaten wrote:
Instead of all the skepticism and victim shaming,

This childish and intellectually vapid accusation is the perfect way to derail a conversation.

You, sir, should be ashamed of your self.
I have gone out of my way to ensure my position regarding tenebre is perfectly clear. Anybody who sees any kind of victim blaming must have either reading comprehension issues or suffer from an extreme case of intellectual dishonesty.

Tenebre, I wish with all my being that you get this issue resolved (both legally and in regard to enjoying your army), and I look forward to seeing it beautifully painted.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.

I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.

A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.

NoggintheNog wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.

I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.

A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.

Exalted.

NoggintheNog wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.

It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.

I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.

A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.

My guess is that the painting service that OP is working with now might be smaller than BTP, projects per month wise. Id imagine it takes significantly longer if the artist had to call the client for every unit. For example if the client wasnt able to pick up they would have to put that entire project on hold. So probably the way BTP works is purely for efficiency reasons, you give them detailed instructions, they try to match those, fast and efficient. But it can lead to problems like the ones the OP is having.

Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.

Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip.

Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.

This.

No other business gets away with cutting quality because "we're busy" so why are you so eager to give BTP slack for it?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.

Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.

I remember a BTP vid were an artist was in a skype call with the client showing him his tau manta. Dont know if they switched from doing that or if they just didnt with OP.

EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.

I usually have a minimum of 3 booked projects, plus numerous enquiries (pre-quote) that I'm dealing with at any point.
Communication is not difficult in this age of email chains and easy storing of reference material.

Because Shawn never wants to say "we can't do this" and return peoples money. He would rather BS his way out of trouble for shoddy results than be a legitimate businessman who either admits his services limitations up front OR adapts to overcome those limitations.
If they are such a big company that they can't competently take large, high end, custom orders then they shouldn't take large high end custom orders.
Admit that you're a paint by numbers painting service and provide excellent service in that space. From everything I've seen of Shawn that level of self awareness is beyon him however.

 plastictrees wrote:

If they are such a big company that they can't competently take large, high end, custom orders then they shouldn't take large high end custom orders.

Any ideas how many painters they have on their books?

 M0ff3l wrote:

EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.

Why is it not fair? When did volume ever determine how much quality a customer should get?

And why is it that, when the customer requested communication, even if it was not allowed, did BTP not mention that to tenebre? You keep trying to blame and shame tenebre with phrases like "entitled to special things" and other such rubbish when BTP failed to communicate their own policies to them. This was not tenebre's fault, no matter how you try to manipulate and spin the facts.

 Flippa wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:

If they are such a big company that they can't competently take large, high end, custom orders then they shouldn't take large high end custom orders.

Any ideas how many painters they have on their books?

Shawn has said he has around 20-30 people working there. I am thinking about 10 full time painters and another 10 part timers. If you notice they spend a lot of time painting studio armies and their own miniatures.

 curran12 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.

Why is it not fair? When did volume ever determine how much quality a customer should get?

And why is it that, when the customer requested communication, even if it was not allowed, did BTP not mention that to tenebre? You keep trying to blame and shame tenebre with phrases like "entitled to special things" and other such rubbish when BTP failed to communicate their own policies to them. This was not tenebre's fault, no matter how you try to manipulate and spin the facts.

How did they fail to communicate their own policies? you get an email saying to read it carefully where it states that artists wont see emails or get phone calls. They tell you that before they even accept the payment... OP could have cancelled when he saw that email, but didnt and then asked for special treatment and wanted to get communication. I am in no way spinning any facts. I posted the email you get after the first deposit a few pages back, maybe you failed to read it, but please, please do before you call me out on not using facts.

Im not saying that its tenebres fault, as BTP responded saying he would receive said special treatment and get the communication which he asked for. After that they didnt keep themselves to that so they are clearly in the wrong.

 M0ff3l wrote:


Im not saying that its tenebres fault, as BTP responded saying he would receive said special treatment and get the communication which he asked for. After that they didnt keep themselves to that so they are clearly in the wrong.

So what is your goal here then exactly? The utterly appalling paint job tenebre received is CLEARLY not his fault, so it's very big of you to admit that. It's awesome that it took 500 meandering posts on your part to get there. So what ARE you saying at this point?

 M0ff3l wrote:
Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month.

Why not? If I'm dropping several thousand pounds at any establishment, I damn well expect to get the red carpet treatment. That's three to four months wages for most commission painters. Good communication and results I am happy with are a must.

So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?

I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?

Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?

I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.

In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.

 Azazelx wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?

Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?

I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.

In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.

Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?

 Stormwall wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?

Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?

I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.

In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.

Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?

Pretty much this.

I know that I would not believe him at this point if he did claim to get a perfectly painted army from BTP.

There is a credibility gap - and as I pointed out, deciding to spend money on a painting service because of a review describing terrible service, nonexistent communication, and bad painting is, at best, a poor decision, and at worst a shill for the company.

Or... just a troll, doing troll things, for troll reasons....

The Auld Grump - who is not a troll, but may be an ogre... just a short ogre....

The Auld Grump:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/622435.page#7341028

Have fun people

Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"

The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.

Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormwall wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.

Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?

Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?

I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.

In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.

Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?

\

But still even I never said they "cant" do something good. All i ever said was look at what was done for me. I hope his army gets a great job and looks awesome. I would never wish ill for anyone's models as, at least for me, they are very dear to the owners heart.
And I would hope knowing that it will be scrutinized he will get way better than asked for.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?

I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.

MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.

They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.

As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.

A basket of common sense? That would look brilliant...

But I did watch their series of videos on how to play War Machine and found them to be quite informative. Mind you, I'm only just starting to get into it and I haven't actually played a game myself yet.

As for sticking up for BTP, that smacks of cronyism and really shouldn't be happening. At all.

You have my best wishes tenebre, and I really hope the redo of your Chaos Dwarves turns out to be amazing. I look forward to seeing them

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?

I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.

MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.

They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.

As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.

That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.

Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

I'm going to have to agree with the others here as well. BTP was supplied with reference artwork pictures and a description. If the description was not clear or the reference artwork unobtainable, they should have contacted the client. ESPECIALLY since it was explicitly part of the original agreement that the artist would discuss how it would be done.

Now, I might agree with you that saying "Nothing changed at all" is false... yes... the new studio has more information up front. However I think it's fair to say "For all intents and purposes, nothing changed at all" (which implies, yes, something did change, but no that should not have an affect on the end results).

The only thing that might very well be different between the new commission and the old commission is we don't know if the new commission is done to the same standard (money wise) as the BTP commission. If BTP was charging $20 a model, is the new commission service doing a job that would also be worth $20 a model (including assembly, cleaning the models, priming, etc).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.

The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).

Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.

Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part

I'm going to have to agree with the others here as well. BTP was supplied with reference artwork pictures and a description. If the description was not clear or the reference artwork unobtainable, they should have contacted the client. ESPECIALLY since it was explicitly part of the original agreement that the artist would discuss how it would be done.

Now, I might agree with you that saying "Nothing changed at all" is false... yes... the new studio has more information up front. However I think it's fair to say "For all intents and purposes, nothing changed at all" (which implies, yes, something did change, but no that should not have an affect on the end results).

The only thing that might very well be different between the new commission and the old commission is we don't know if the new commission is done to the same standard (money wise) as the BTP commission. If BTP was charging $20 a model, is the new commission service doing a job that would also be worth $20 a model (including assembly, cleaning the models, priming, etc).

the new company is about ~30% LESS cost wise for the level agreed on. which is equivalent to the level i requested from BTP. BTP charged $17 per model MINIMUM, my heroes were all over $50 each (dwarfs) bull centaurs were 75 except the bull centaur Hero which was $210 for PAINTING ONLY!

I have always only been referring to painting costs alone.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?

I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.

MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.

They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.

As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.

That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.

The thing is you cannot be like that because people watch their videos to try and get better at the game.

I've had to straighten more than one newbie out because "well thats how MWG does it"

Hey!

I feel you man. Me and my big brother used Blue Table Painting a few years back, and kinda same thing happened to us. They promised me pictures of conversions before painting for approvel, but I never got a single picture until I got my miniatures 6 weeks late. BTP didn't even remove a single mold line from my brothers miniatures.

BTP always brag about good communication, but the truth is they have no communication.