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 DO IT TO IT wrote:
If the upcoming Archangels detachment doesn't appeal to me, I'll probably put Cassor the Damned in 1 troops slot and a flamer-heavy tac squad in a Rhino in the other.

I've decided on one tact squad in a drop pod with all the flamer goodies I can get in it. The second slot might be Cassor or it might be a second tactical squad in a rhino. Just not sure yet.

As for elites I think it has to be DC. They can now score objectives which is good and their cheapness with jump packs now will be great. Not to mention the psychic power which gives rage or +1 attack is going to be brutal on them. Imagine DC with 6 attacks each on the charge.

So this leaves HQ's as being a libby of some sort, perhaps Mephiston, a sanguinary priest as well and/or Dante since he is looking to be shaping up well too.

so much this






also why is drop pod in FA a bad thing?


Is it confirmed that the preists are HQ slots that dont take up HQ slots?

 easysauce wrote:



Is it confirmed that the preists are HQ slots that dont take up HQ slots?

I don't think so, seems to be looking like they are actually full HQ picks. No-one has adressed it definitively from what I could find.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?

because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...

That's just untrue on the face of it. Giving Blood Angels assault squads as troops in the first place was a fundamental change, and it only happened ~7 years ago. Now they've taken that away, it's just bringing things back the way they were. I agree that it sucks to have things taken away, and I'd rather see GW give Blood Angels (and Dark Angels and all other codex-adherent marines) a way to run assault squads at least as your minimum two troops (because all of them have the units, organization, and doctrine to do it).

But let's also not pretend you have to spend $400 or whatever to play the game again. You can play Unbound (which sucks) or you can buy two boxes of scouts for, what, $45 total, or two new tactical boxes for ~$70 total, and round your force out a bit better anyway. And there are no shortage of slightly used tacticals on ebay.

It sucks and I sympathize. I hate when GW gives rules and then takes them away. But this isn't out of line with the fluff (or at least it's no more incorrect than the previous codex was), it isn't totally unexpected, and it isn't the end of the world if you still want to play the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wormark wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?

I think a better option is to introduce something new and cool that I would want to buy. Not force me to buy because my army was invalidated. Eldar got Wraithknights, 2 flyers, and wraithgaurd and they were one of the most crowded books to begin with. Space Marines got the hunter, stalker, and centurions. Tau got Riptides, Flyers, several SC. Space Wolves got a new dreadnought kit and 2 fliers. Blood Angels (and GK, DE) get no new units

I fail to see why removing options is a solid business plan. There isn't a single thing I'm excited about for this codex release. Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.

GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.

To bring up one of my favorite old saws, this is precisely why GW should not have axed all their specialist games, and why 40k should more properly be split into several separate games with different scopes. When you narrow your entire universe down to one game, you either converge your ruleset and army lists to a balanced product, where it stagnates, or you resort to changing rules for the sake of changing rules, repeatedly breaking the game in the process, and eventually run out of empty design space for new units.

What option do the DC get? How many models per unit? How many of their guys can upgrade weaponary? Can they by any chance get special weapons (praying for jump pack, relentless grav guns).

For that matter, can ASM get grav guns?

EDIT: Double post.

 plastictrees wrote:
I'm more curious about the BA Terminator kit from a 'why?' perspective. There doesn't seem to be any particular incentive to pick them up unless it's just a kit you like.

I'm guessing for the Archangels, which get more rules and wargear in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.

I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
While I do feel for those who don't have any tactical marines or scouts in their army, a quick question, I see a lot of people saying "loathe, now I have to buy new stuff!", do you think I was reasonable to expect a new codex, and not have any new units to buy in it?

because most of the changes for the past 20 years have only been minor changes in wargear, etc. Not a fundamental change as ASM from troops to FA. I built the core of my army around Assault Marines, of varying styles (jump packs and non) And to basically have my entire army gutted, I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...

It would cost $100 AUD for enough scouts to make your list legal again. Not $400.
I am dreading my CSM release, as my Plague Marines will probably be forced elites next release. Adapt and overcome. I will buy $100 worth of troop choices and move on.

Edit: correction $82, not 100 for two squads of scouts.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

Not sure if joking.......

 BlackArmour wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

Not sure if joking.......

Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.

 Rippy wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

Not sure if joking.......

Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.

That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha

Scouts will be good for one thing, give them a Locator Beacon so you can get scatterless deep strike.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

Not sure if joking.......

Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.

That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha

It's actually pretty valid. I'm not saying you should charge as soon as you can with them, but with the WS system the way if is, they hit faster and harder than many much more expensive dedicated Assault units. 3 S5 I5 attacks a piece for 11 points is nothing to be sniffed at, throw in power sword on the Sergeant and you have a small unit with quite a nasty sting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and to save clogging up this thread, I did create a BA Tactics thread in appropriate forum.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626215.page

I've copied over all the pertinent rumours, so that might be a better place to take any theory-hammer.

For those that have seen the book, sorry if this was already answered...can the BA scouts take the landspeeder Storm transport? I was bummed when it didn't show up in the Dark Angels book, hoping I can take one with the Blood Angels.

 wormark wrote:

Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.

Ya, it is sort of like buying a refrigerator. Sure you need it, but it's tough to get excited about it. Especially when you'd rather spend the money on a big TV.

Only warning, folks: remember to be a) topical; b) polite; and c) avoid attaching inappropriate images/videos to this thread.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.

As a DA player I couldn't agree more - DW Knights and RW Black Knights are precisely such unnecessary additions in attempt to 'justify' separate Codex. I don't personally use them, I don't like their lore or wargear and I'd be happy if they didn't exist. I wouldn't even mind that much if DA was rolled into regular SM Codex, really.

Does the BA detachment give +1 initiative and obsec to troops?

Backfire wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

GW literally can't keep introducing new things. The design space, especially for marine armies, is so damn crowded. New units have tended to be ugly, nonsensical, unnecessary, or a combination thereof more often than not. Trying desperately to cram in unneeded units just to give something to sell is how we ended up with Sanguinius Jr and Murder McMurderface and his Murderclaws of Murder. For what it's worth, trying to differentiate armies for the sake of being different is how Blood Angels ended up with assault squads as troops in the first place.

As a DA player I couldn't agree more - DW Knights and RW Black Knights are precisely such unnecessary additions in attempt to 'justify' separate Codex. I don't personally use them, I don't like their lore or wargear and I'd be happy if they didn't exist. I wouldn't even mind that much if DA was rolled into regular SM Codex, really.

Kinda true, kinda not.

They can always add in units from other books (like the Hunter or the Space Guppy), but you can't build a release around models that already exist, so it has to be done around new models. For BA's they'd certainly painted themselves into a corner. They already had Assault Marines, Elite Assault Marines and Elite Elite Assault Marines, so with so many jump packs about they'd already risen to the ceiling. Without inventing a whole new unit (like they did last time), or making another pointless aircraft, they had to do something.

So a new Tac Squad and a conversion kit for the Assault Terminator kit is it. I suspect that when it comes time to further ruin re-do the Dark Angels and Space Wolves we might see something similar, as they've used up the "invent new crap" thing for them - twice now with Wolves.

Other armies are still ripe for new stuff.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!

To be fair i think there is a bit to that.

with CC/Pistols that would be 15 attacks at st5 usually first would give many things a run for there monies. and even has a chance for some rear armor pens.
If its like vanilla marines, have em with camo cloaks, CC/P start em out in cover and charge something vulnerable in there back field. could be interesting with a power maul sergeant to dump some wounds on some fools.

Its also a bonus if you distract with drop pods or some other T1 drops as well.

Edit: With a full unit being 30 attacks of ST5 death. dumping wounds on all the things.

Drop em in with a T1 Dread to really make em worry.

Any confirmation on Death Company squad size maximum?

This history of slots for BA.

2nd Edition (Angels of Death 1996) The FOC didn't exist. All the squads were lumped together in the Squads category which was at least 25% of your army. Squads included DC, Terminators, Veteran Assault Marines, Assault Squad, Devastators, Scouts, Tacticals, and Bikes.

3rd Edition (1998) The FOC in the form we know now exists.
HQ:Hero, Chaplain, Librarian, Sanguinary High Priest, Corbulo, Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Tycho, Honor Guard, and Death Company (randomly generated)
Elites: Veteran Assault Squad, Furioso, Terminators, Veterans, Moriar
Troops: BA Scouts, Tacticals, SM Scouts (0-1)
FA: Assault Squad, Bike Squadron, Scout Bikes, Land Speeder Squadron, Land Speeder Tornado, Land Speeder Typhoon, Attack Bikes.
HS: Baal Predator, Devastators, Whirlwind, Pred Annihilator, Pred Destructor, Dreadnought, Land Raider, Vindicator

4th Edition (2007 Jervis WD dex)
HQ: Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Corbulo, Chaplain, Librarian (LD9!), Captain, Honor Guard
Elite: DC (really outside FOC), Terminators, Furioso (including DC dread), Dreadnought, Techmarines, Veteran Assault Squad, Scouts(!)
Troops: Assault Squad, Tacticals,
FA: Bikes, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders
HS: Baal Pred, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, Devastators, Whirlwind, Predator, Vindicator
Dedicated Trans: Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod

5th Edition (2010 Ward dex)
HQ: Dante, Seth, Astorath, Sanguinor, Mephiston, Tycho, Librarian, Reclusiarch, Captain, Honor Guard
Elite:Chaplain, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso, Terminators, Techmarine, Sternguard, Sanguinary Priest, Corbulo,
Troops: Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Scouts, DC, DC Dread,
FA: Vanguard, Land Speeders, Baal Pred, Attack Bikes, Bikes, Scout Bikes,
HS: Dreadnought, Stormraven, Predator, Devastators, Vindicator, Whirlwind,
Dedicated Trans: Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, Land Raider, LR Redeemer, LR Crusader.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 wormark wrote:

Tacticals are the most basic and boring unit and a poor choice for a codex launch. Who's really ever exciting to plop down tactical marines on the tabletop.

Ya, it is sort of like buying a refrigerator. Sure you need it, but it's tough to get excited about it. Especially when you'd rather spend the money on a big TV.

Nah, we never really needed tacticals when ASM were still troops. They always did better than tacs. Bad comparison.

But nevermind, lets move on. Complaining won´t change anything.

If they get the land speeder storm they'd be pretty awesome. Remember, it's open topped so it is an assault vehicle... with a weapon that has a chance to blind their target so they can hit on a 3+.

So... For the largest proportion of the game's history, Assault Squads have been Fast Attack and not Troops. DC were also Elites for most of the game's history as well. Learned something new.

I still am curious if you can field 30 DC in one Elite slot. Because that is going to be awesome if so.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
I don't have the money to go out and buy $400 worth of models to rebuild and adjust my army into a coherent build...

So what you are saying is that $43 and 150 points of Tactical Marines added to your army is game breaking for you ?

Troop 1 Tactical 5 man
Troop 2 Tactical 5 man
FA 1 Assault Squad
FA 2 Assault Squad
FA 3 Assault Squad

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so, play Unbound? Cool.

How do I get ObSec on my ASM squads then?

You know, like they've had since ObSec became a thing.

Stop whining Az. I lost a specific play-style borne of a special character that never got a model, and that's totally the same thing as having the entire structure of your army that's been in place for 5+ years removed for no other reason than to push a new Tactical Marine kit!

You know, if you ever want to get around to responding to my point about what the actual, functional difference is between someone losing the ability to use the models/army they paid for because of a FoC-shifting option being removed, and a unit changing slots, feel free.

Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.

As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).

I can not wait to pick up the new BA Termies .... they have LC in there. Wait ... NVM.