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2014/12/10 04:16:26
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: While Red__Thirst's opinion certainly isn't popular, it's kind of a good point. Blood Angels never should have been pushed towards all jump packs all the time. It grossly distorted the fluff - not because Blood Angels couldn't or wouldn't run an all-assault force, but because it completely skewed people's perception of the army. Vanilla marines have every bit as much a right to run assault squads as troops (exact same codex-adherent company structure, and other codex chapters rely heavily on jump packs, like Raven Guard). Yet they lack that option. Meanwhile the Blood Angels have been twisted into a weird place by years of people assuming that anything but 100% assault squads isn't a Blood Angels army, when in reality ~60% of Blood Angels are tactical marines, same as everyone else. Making their codex a one-trick pony like that did the Blood Angels no favors.
However, I think neutering entire builds is never a good idea. The correct course would be somewhere in the middle - both codexes should have the option to run assault squads to fill the minimum troop requirement, but it should require a captain or chapter master with a jump pack. Likewise, vanilla marines should have the option of running a jump pack honor guard or command squad (because again, the 8th company is a thing). Blood Angels are a codex chapter - with a few unique characters, chapter-wide rules, wargear options, and a unique unit, they could be rolled into the vanilla codex. I don't think it's a bad thing that GW has moved them in that direction, but I do think they should have met in the middle on assault squads (where all codex chapters should be) instead of removing it outright.
Exalted sir......I honesty am infuriated by no assault marines as troop, however I could have honestly dealt with a meeting of the minds to allow them as an option if I brought an SC or a captain with a jump pack at least then those individuals who chose to make the all jump pack army had the choice to continue running the army they fell in love with, and then it would have easily fallen inline with the BA fluff of them preferring airial assaults and a one line of fluff could have been written somewhere statin BA have more jump packs available to them because of "blank" but instead they really did pretty much completely screw over ALOT of people.
2014/12/10 05:26:01
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
Something I'm curious about that not many people have brought up, will BA Assault Marines keep Meltaguns and Flamers as weapons options given that they too were introduced in the Ward-dex and GW seems to be removing most of his changes. Those weapons (and the ability to take Razorbacks) were not available in the 4E WD list that initially made ASM's troops.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
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2014/12/10 05:52:02
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.
As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).
Yes, I do understand the basic assertion; they are two different things. The effect however is the same - people spent money building an army, that army is no longer usable without modification(or in some cases, as you point out with the GWLotD list, at all, until FW's latest IA). If that's the core reason why people are(to an extent, justifiably) upset by GW shifting AM out of Troops, I just think it's a distinction without a difference.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2014/12/10 06:33:37
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I just realized: BA scouts are awesome now. 55 points 5 marines with S5 and I5 on the charge? And Infiltrate? Very good distraction squad!
Not sure if joking.......
Cheap scoring unit. That is what they are.
That much I get and I'm fine with, he was talking about charging them into something .......and that's where I get confused haha
They would be a decent unit actually if take them with combat weapon and pistol. At I5 you'll be striking before other marines with 3 attacks each model. For 55pts that's pretty good, especially if we get the LSS, but I actually doubt we'll get it since the guy said we got no new units although there is a slight chance he might have missed it. We didn't get anything else from C:SM though.
2014/12/10 07:14:45
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
2014/12/10 07:14:47
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
I noticed two pages back someone mentioned they use C:BA to represent Jump Pack RavenGuard... perhaps this is one small reason why GW have done this, to force Ravenguard players to use the vanilla Codex? IIRC wasn't there something similar done to DA players wanting to use the superior White Scar bike rules?
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2014/12/10 07:16:45
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
Indeed. Let's wait and see how many of those ~18 new detachments and formations~ in the Exterminatus book (plus extra content in the Dec 20th WD) allow use of more jump-pack units. I remember people bitching about Gargoyles not getting a Troops FOC-switching ability in January, then a few weeks later they were the first unit to get ObSec. Anyone who thinks an army lead by Dante isn't going to get at least one jump-themed datasheet is being way too dramatic.
2014/12/10 08:03:08
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
H.B.M.C. wrote: Part of it, at least, is that people should know better by now. A special character that never got a model suddenly vanishing (or losing that ability) isn't unusual. If anything, looking over GW's releases over the past few years it is something that's to be expected. Whereas a sudden change in a core structure of an army that's been around for 7 years... well that's a little different.
As I said, the equivalent isn't losing the ability to take Nobz or Wolf Guard as troops. The equivalent would be moving Grey Hunters or Shoota Boyz to Elites (actually I didn't say that, I used Kabalite Warriors and Wyches in my original example, but same diff).
you mean like tyranids where warriors have been in troops then hq then elites and now troops again or genestealers troops then elites then troops with the broodlord being an hq now a nid sargent. Or tge carnifex elites and heavy now just heavy. Its happened before and will happen again. And adding a couple of cheap scout squads for back field holding is not going to ruin your army.
2014/12/10 08:06:54
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
casvalremdeikun wrote: What's getting irritating to me is when people are acting like you can't do a JP focused army anymore. Having four Elite and three Fast Attack slots to put JP squads in is more than enough. Sure, you can't run an ALL JP army anymore as of yet, but let's not pretend that you can't do most. People have brought up that all BA 1st Company Marines maintain a jet pack. Well, they would be Terminators if they are wearing TDA, they would be Vanguard Veterans if they were wearing a JP.
The explanation is in your own quote. A jump-pack focused army is not the same as an all jump-pack army. apple != orange, why is that irritating to you?
Because people are acting like the JP focused army is dead. It isn't.
They're not saying a jump-pack focused army is dead. They're saying an all jump-pack army is dead. It is.
2014/12/10 09:55:36
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
Can you explain what the difference between the Blood Angels Honor Guard and the Codex: Space Marines Command Squad is? Is it just the ability to take a Jump Pack?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Yeah, a Dante led formation is inevitable. Assuming Sang guard are still 0-1, there are a few invalidated armies around due to his old special rules.
They are sure to sort that out.
Anyway, can someone with the codex please list out the options for a death company. max squad size, weapon options, do they have sergeants etc etc.
The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
Warhams-77 wrote: The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
Warhams-77, thank you for all the awesome pictures and awesome info
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
2014/12/10 12:20:07
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
Unless Lemartes is seperate in the same way that Lukas the Trickster is seperate from Blood Claws,if it's like that we don't need to worry
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
totally agree, ive also played since 2nd andam not worried about the ASM slot swap, i feel the change taking the BA back to bemore like i have them pictured in my head, we can still take 7 squads of jumpers as others have stated..
can no one think of the honor guard!!!! my beautiful gold paint jobs are getting stripped and painted black :-(
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/10 12:27:40
2014/12/10 12:28:49
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hmmm. Well, Stormraven being FA means I will have an HS Slot freed up so I can run another tank (I plan on Vindicator, TriLasPred, and Baal Pred). I like that the Vindi CAN be fast. I don't think I like Lemartes being a separate Elite is something I like. DSing Land Raiders was bound to go, no surprise there.
Unless Lemartes is seperate in the same way that Lukas the Trickster is seperate from Blood Claws,if it's like that we don't need to worry
Ooo, I would really like that. I really like Lemartes's character, would love to put him in my army.
Bla_Ze wrote: Who cares about AM being tropps? I have played since 2E and i certainly dont... What troubles me is what happens with the honour guard
totally agree, ive also played since 2nd andam not worried about the ASM slot swap, i feel the change taking the BA back to bemore like i have them pictured in my head, we can still take 7 squads of jumpers as others have stated..
can no one think of the honor guard!!!! my beautiful gold paint jobs are getting stripped and painted black :-(
Many have only played since 5th or 3rd, and so actually DO care. Plus, not many actually care about Honour Guard, because Command Squads are better with multiple special weapons, and Sanguinary are better jumpers and guards with their 2+ save and power weapons all around.
You say "we can still take 7 Jumper Squads"... C:SM can take 6. Not exactly a major leg up in that department, especially as one such unit is Honour Guard that are pretty poor points sinks in comparison to vehicles or other JP units.
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2014/12/10 13:08:03
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm happy that the've done tacticals for BA, as it gives them a distinctive look. Too often, GW neglect the base of the army to concentrate on the fancy stuff (see toomb king and eldar), so I hope that this trend contnues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/10 13:09:14
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
2014/12/10 13:15:12
Subject: Re:Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
Warhams-77 wrote: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
If so, why is it missing from that army builder screenshot?
Good point, and I'm still skeptical about some of this info as well. I quoted what was posted at 4chan and asked for verification when it was different to the spanish leaks on warseer. He was well-mannered, mostly friendly and also checked the book again several times. We should get more from other sources soon. Until then, still rumors not facts
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/10 13:16:26
2014/12/10 14:07:23
Subject: Blood Angels Rumours - Pre-order up - Website photos from page 78
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
1500 points 
Legion: Dark Angels 
