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morgoth wrote:

5 - INVISIBILITY - Warp Charge 2

The psyker twists and obscures the perceptions of his foes to the point that he becomes completely invisible.

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

When do you get permission to "hit" models without doing a To Hit roll, and without rolling a 6 ?

You get permission from any Special ability that says you get to hit them without rolling. Like HoW and Stomps.

morgoth wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

And how is a hit resolve if it states it "suffers hit", there is no "roll to hit" wording there for "only hit by 6's" to apply, therefore it does not apply, as you made no roll to hit.

Stomp is its own special attack, as defined in its rules, it is neither a close combat attack, nor does it make rolls to hit. Knowing that, how does invisbility prevent Stomp, as no criteria to trigger the restrictions for Invisibility are ever invoked.

We're almost there.

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

enemy units in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

An enemy unit (the IK)
In close combat (in base contact)
Will only hit (or cause hits, or make the enemy suffer hits or really anything that has hit in its wording)
Models in it (the invisible unit which is in base contact)
On To Hit rolls of a 6 (when a To Hit roll is made and rolls a 6)

Which line do you disagree with ?

Your entire premise where you're assuming Stomp is a normal close combat attack, instead of its own attack called a "Stomp Attack" that does not roll to hit.

And the bolded line more specifically.

blaktoof wrote:

also stating that you can only hit a model by rolling, and getting a 6 is not the same as stating to hit rolls require a 6.

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

And the rule states that you can only hit a model by rolling a To Hit roll of a 6.

Read, don't interpret.

Impossible, as all reading requires interpretation.

Are you rolling a to-hit? then you need a 6. Not rolling a to-hit? the rule that concerns itself with a to-hit can do one.

THats actually what it says, but requires not focusing on one word to the exclusion fo all actual meaning.

morgoth wrote:
This is of course unless we can find a good reason for "unit b suffers a hit from an ability of unit a" to be different from "unit a hit a model from unit b".

Which I still haven't seen in this thread.

Yes, "unit b suffers a hit from an ability of unit a"
is different to "unit a rolls To Hit a model from unit b"

Did you read the rule properly?

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units (...) will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

It is clearly written that To Hit rolls are affected.

morgoth wrote:
enemy units in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

morgoth wrote:
And the rule states that you can only hit a model by rolling a To Hit roll of a 6.

Read, don't interpret.

Correct. But what if there is no To Hit roll? What do the rules say to do then?

I mean, the Rule "will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6." tells you what to do when you roll To Hit rolls. I doesn't specify anything about thing that don't roll To Hit.
Unless you add your own "opinion":

morgoth wrote:
An enemy unit (the IK)
In close combat (in base contact)
Will only hit (or cause hits, or make the enemy suffer hits or really anything that has hit in its wording)
Models in it (the invisible unit which is in base contact)
On To Hit rolls of a 6 (when a To Hit roll is made and rolls a 6)

Which line do you disagree with ?

The red section is you inventing rules, as said before.
"Will only hit" is a condition. A condition affected by the "On To Hit rolls of a 6" part.

If it was "Will only hit" *if plasma weapons Gets Hot*, would you say Boltguns cannot Hit?
No, because the "Will only hit" clause refers to the plasma weapons. It says nothing about Laser weapons or Missiles.

If it was "Will only hit" *on a charge range of 8*, would you say the Unit cannot Hit in round 2?
No, because the "Will only hit" clause refers to the turn the Unit charged. It says nothing about when you are in combat already.

It actually is "Will only hit" "On To Hit rolls of a 6". And you say Auto-Hits cannot Hit?
No, because the "Will only hit" clause refers to To Hit rolls. It says nothing about things that don't roll To Hit.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Your entire premise where you're assuming Stomp is a normal close combat attack, instead of its own attack called a "Stomp Attack" that does not roll to hit.

And the bolded line more specifically.

Nope.

Stomp is an ability that is used by a unit which is in close combat with an invisible unit, and therefore subject to the limitation "only hits unit in it"(the close combat).

The fact that it does not normally roll to hit YET makes the invisible unit to suffer hits MEANS that the stomping unit "hit" the invisible unit, which is not possible because hitting only happens on "To Hit rolls of a 6".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units (...) will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

It is clearly written that To Hit rolls are affected.

And that is where I disagree.

It is clearly written that anything from unit a that "hit models in it" is affected.

You believe that "on To Hit rolls" affects only attacks that roll "To Hit', but that's not what is written.

What is written is that it will only cause hits on a To Hit roll of 6. No To Hit roll, no 6, no hit.

morgoth wrote:
It is clearly written that anything from unit a that "hit models in it" is affected.

No, that's not the rules. You are being selective.
will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.
"models in it" is the phrase Object. "will only hit" is the clause for the condition "on To Hit rolls of a 6"
You cannot split Clause and condition. Basic English.

morgoth wrote:
You believe that "on To Hit rolls" affects only attacks that roll "To Hit', but that's not what is written.

What?
Can you read what you have just typed? I highlighted the 3 exact same words. And that's not what is written?

morgoth wrote:
What is written is that it will only cause hits on a To Hit roll of 6. No To Hit roll, no 6, no hit.

You are again adding the condition "No To Hit roll, no 6, no hit.". That is your opinion.
The rule say absolutely nothing about attacks that don't roll to hit. Nothing.
Please underline the part that says what you do with attacks that do not roll To Hit.

hitting automatically = no need to roll you succeed.

not needing to roll to hit, = did not have to roll, you succeed.

need to roll to hit? You need 6's.

 BlackTalos wrote:

morgoth wrote:
It is clearly written that anything from unit a that "hit models in it" is affected.

No, that's not the rules. You are being selective.
will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.
"models in it" is the phrase Object. "will only hit" is the clause for the condition "on To Hit rolls of a 6"
You cannot split Clause and condition. Basic English.

I don't think you understand basic english.

"will only hit" means that's the only way to hit. If you can't understand that, there's no point in discussing any further.

will on hit on to hit rolls of 6 means, if you roll you need a 6. if there is no roll there is no to hit roll.



there is no restriction of can only be hit by models that are rolling to hit.

blaktoof wrote:
will on hit on to hit rolls of 6 means, if you roll you need a 6. if there is no roll there is no to hit roll.



there is no restriction of can only be hit by models that are rolling to hit.

Will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6 means the only way to hit is if you roll To Hit and roll a 6.'

If there is no roll, there is no To Hit roll, therefore there can be no hits.

morgoth wrote:
"will only hit" means that's the only way to hit. If you can't understand that, there's no point in discussing any further.

No.

"Will only A if B" or "Will only A on rolls of B" is different to what you seem to think: "Will only A", let's ignore B.

You cannot say that A is unrelated to B, they are in the same sentence, same rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
will on hit on to hit rolls of 6 means, if you roll you need a 6. if there is no roll there is no to hit roll.



there is no restriction of can only be hit by models that are rolling to hit.

Will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6 means the only way to hit is if you roll To Hit and roll a 6.'

If there is no roll, there is no To Hit roll, therefore there can be no hits.

See the "And" above? The real rule has no "and".
"will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6. " is very different to "will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls and rolls of a 6.

The first is the real rule. The second one is what your are adding to the rule.
"on To Hit rolls of a 6" is a single Condition: It has to be a To Hit roll of a 6.

Not: it has to be a To Hit roll AND it has to be a 6.

morgoth wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
will on hit on to hit rolls of 6 means, if you roll you need a 6. if there is no roll there is no to hit roll.



there is no restriction of can only be hit by models that are rolling to hit.

Will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6 means the only way to hit is if you roll To Hit and roll a 6.'

If there is no roll, there is no To Hit roll, therefore there can be no hits.

By your wording here ANY blast will never cause damage because they DO NOT ROLL TO HIT.

You can try to be selective all that you want, however you are so very wrong as other people have pointed out various different times.

Stomps do not roll to hit ... ever. They Automatically hit. There is no if's, and's or but's about it. They auto-hit, therefore bypassing the requirement to roll a six to hit. Not sure how anyone else can explain it to you other than ... you are factually wrong.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Not sure how anyone else can explain it to you other than ... you are factually wrong.

Trying to

All of you English majors keep going around in circles, ignoring the fact that GW does not use proper English.

Invisibility forces range attacks to snap fire when targeting Invisible units, and it forces CC attacks to roll a To Hit of 6 to hit in melee. Stomp is neither a range attack nor a CC attack, Stomp is its own special form of attack called a "Stomp Attack". Stomp Attacks are blast markers that are placed using specific rules, that do not scatter, and that generate Hits through a special method not used by range or CC attacks. Invisibility does not address non-range, non-CC attacks. Chasing your tails on what a To Hit of 6 can or cannot hit has no baring on how a Stomp Attack works.

Stomp Attacks, like Destroyer Weapons and Thunderblitz, bypass the basic rules of the game and replace the normal To Hit, To Wound sequence with a table that deals Hits arbitrarily based on a separate Die roll. Just like a scattered Blast marker, any model under a Stomp is hit. Any model, including Invisible models. Since a Stomp is neither a range attack nor a CC attack, then neither snap fire nor To Hit rolls apply. Per RAW, you follow the rules as written and treat any Invisible models under a Stomp as Hit per the Stomp rules, and roll on the Stomp table to see how many hits (lower case), if any, are applied to the Invisible unit, and how many models, if any, are removed outright.

Breaking out your English textbooks and/or dictionaries is usless when trying to parse GW rules. A plain reading with common English usage in mind is more appropriate, and will net you a non-loophole ruling.

Yes, this does mean that Invisible actually does mean "can't be seen" rather than the "Intangible" one side of this debate seems to want Invisible to mean.

SJ

I'll let somebody else handle your reading incomprehension, I've been clear enough and you keep on making the same reading mistake over and over as if you didn't even read what's written in the BRB or my posts.

Invis = crutch. Stomp hits them, and wrecks them.

morgoth wrote:
I'll let somebody else handle your reading incomprehension, I've been clear enough and you keep on making the same reading mistake over and over as if you didn't even read what's written in the BRB or my posts.

No, you've clearly made up rules.

Hint: everyone is pointing out your error. Step back and scoot that you may be, just possibly, wrong on this.