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PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's not stupid nonsense at all.

I didn't make that statement though. I said I'm happy to play a price to play a certain type of game. If a better option was available, I would switch my buying elsewhere.

I have no real loyality to a brand, I just want to use the best standard of mini to play the best type of game. It's because I've included 40k and WHFB in the list of things I play, it's made people, that have an issue with GW (for a number of reasons, right or wrong) froth at the mouth.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

And here comes the final goal post moving and the haterz accusations, again...

No one is frothing at the mouth because you like GW, people are just contesting your claim that GW makes the "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world".

Believe it or not, your tactic is a really old one and people are tired of having to deal with it. You start with a ridiculous claim, when people contest that claim you start moving the goalposts and when even that doesn't make you "win" you resort to calling people haterz... Its getting pretty boring by this point.

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not really. the "polar opposite" usually presents evidence and facts, not just "I don't like X" or stupid nonsense like "I am happy to pay GW's price, therefore nothing is wrong".

Maybe in your 90´ degrees biased reality.... Next to that "I am unhappy to pay GW´s price, therefore nothing is right." Pot and kettle. I do find "I don´t like X" one of the most common arguments there is, I don´t know what forums you read.

Anyway, in order to make navigating DakkantiGWDakka easier, I have compiled all the related threads into a listing:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
.

It's very similar to the tribal attitudes people have to games consoles. I don't understand that either.

Hobbys exist to serve us, it's existance is purely to create joy within us. Why it would make people foam at the mouth on the internet is beyond me.

It has become the normal thing to do on the net nowadays somewhat, pick a side and get stuck in regardless.
It gets to the point where no one listens to whats being said and they just keep going through the motions, happens more and more on here especially where GW are concerned.
Its not as black and white as its made out, its more like shades of grey, definitely not worth getting upset about eh

The Division Of Joy wrote:
And I guess Epic was super super super skirmish.

I say what I want, and when I offer opinion I'm a white knight.

I repeat that I'm not a GW white knight, and would happily get my 'larger scale' fix from another company if it was better, but I get isolated examples, and cherry picked price comparisons, and told I'm a white knight.

I say 'give me another 40k option' and get a raft of historical army options. I don't like them and it's not what i'm asking for, I'm a GW fanboy!

On the one hand, you've "moved the goalposts" considerably". You started out stating that 2nd edition 40k miniatures were better than Infinity. After being conclusively shown to be incredibly wrong about that, you're now asking about games that are like 40k but not.

That almost sounds as ridiculous as your 2nd ed/Infinity question, but… you do have a small point.

There is no Company-level, all included (rules, minis and fluff from one company) 28mm sci-fantasy ruleset that has models as good as 40k. Mantic has/had a comparable ruleset, but the models aren't as good, and rely on a less than ideal "restic" material for many of the units. However, it's easy to see why there aren't many competitors. A 40k game is two "companies" of troop, armor and air support fighting on a piece of land the size of a football pitch. It's patently ridiculous and folks who want that turn to 40k or Mantic. Folks who want something slightly more realistic realize that the figures/area ratio requires less figs, and so most sci-fi rulesets are either around the reinforced platoon level or so, down to single squad sized skirmishes.
Warzone, Infinity, Mercs, Warmachine, etc. All made by writers who realized that better rules requires a smaller figs/area ratio and have adjusted as such. 40k and the Mantic "not-40k" warpath are the two options left for those size battles, and even Mantic has downsized Warpath to a 2.0 version that is a bit smaller, though 1.0 (original company level rules) is rumored to also be a part of the upcoming rulebook.

All this to say there are better figs, and better rules, but if you insist on cramming hundreds of sci-fi troops onto a soccer field and duking it out, then 40k is your best -and nearly only- choice.

I would add that I still have two 40k armies and do like a big, ridiculous sci-fi scrum from time to time. It's not a game that I would ever invest most of my gaming time and money in, but from time to time it's fun. When that mood hits, I find that warpath 1.0 is great for playing out such a game in a reasonable amount of time with free rules that are quite fluid and unencumbered by needless crunch and army lists that make proxying easy.

There's nothing like 40k because 40k is a large-scale game played on a small-scale field. Large-scale games use smaller scale figures to give the illusion of depth and size (see: Any historical game, Dropzone Commander, even Epic 40k) because that scale lets you accurately represent a large-scale battlefield. Even the historicals that use 28mm tend to be smaller-scale representing part of a battle as opposed to the entire battle itself, while 40k just kind of throws everything into one gigantic battle over a small area.

The entire reason why 40k and Epic were separate was so Epic could represent the entirety of the battle, while 40k represented a particular engagement of that battle. Now, you basically have condensed an entire battle into a single engagement.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

There you go:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

Its not an exact quote but if you read my statement it was under quotation marks meaning that it wasn't an exact quote from you but that I was paraphrasing. You can read this article if you wan't to read further about what I meant in my reply (its the last example in that subsection). Funny how you are demonstrating these difficulties with the English language and its various styles of written prose when just a few posts ago you were bemoaning having been misinterpreted by non-native speakers...

Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

 RunicFIN wrote:


Anyway, in order to make navigating DakkantiGWDakka easier, I have compiled all the related threads into a listing:

Oh Runic, never stop.

I mean, let's just ignore the hundreds, if not thousands of other threads across this forum that aren't anti-GW, or ignore the ones that are so positive no dissenting opinion is allowed.

Life's probably just easier when you can put things into neat little boxes labelled 'Anti-GW' and 'Pro-GW'. So much easier than engaging and hearing what merits each individual brings to the discussion about a game they clearly love enough to talk about its flaws and what it would take to fix it in their opinion.

Keep banging that drum though.

 Blacksails wrote:


Keep banging that drum though.

It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

-

*continously using the WK term in a negative manner gives the impression of you being in the opposite corner.

PhantomViper wrote:
Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

You mean just as we have done the dance with countless anti-GW folk like you* for a decade and few years more, and find you equally if not even more boring in your eternal struggle against GW and their games, the predictions of their downfall and whatnot, which have continued to fail since the 90´s and just remain at the level of amateur speculation, hanging on to "proof" like singular sales reports and chairmans preambles ( epic lol here ) - all this delivered with the fiction based view of your arguments being more valid than the non-nay/doomsayers people, arrogant beyond measure attitude, constantly being on the offensive, and doing everything in your power to spread the word of anti-gw.

All you bring to these forums is negativity and nitpicking. If there´s a disease on these forums, it´s you ( plural. ) The epitome of boring is the continous campaigning of you anti-GW folk. Luckily there´s a heavily outnumbering amount of people who think the opposite or see both sides of the coin and continue providing a positive experience.

 RunicFIN wrote:



It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

 Blacksails wrote:

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

It falls flat to everyone but the people who find vaurious things about this current trend on this very forum hilarious. Ofcourse no anti-gw person ( be it 40-60% or 0-100% on the axis ) will find it so, they would be laughing at themselves. See my above post that pretty much summarizes how boring it´s getting.

Luckily the core of this wave ( as these do come in waves since the 90´s indeed, always doomsaying/predicting this and that and always failing in the end without exception as GW and the people who enjoy their games march on without effect ) consists of only around 7 users and it didn´t take too much effort to put ( so far the most biased of ) them on ignore. The way this "core" group can be perceived with just a glance just goes to show it´s just a few people making all the negative noise.

Sure, 7 users.

That's it.

Not like there's a petition of nearly 10k people all seeking change from GW.

Oh, and its totally cyclical. All of this will blow away...conveniently with most of GW's customers.

Probably best to just ignore it and call it a trend. Like the internet, or Pokemon.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

I hope you understand if your attempt at humour falls a little flat when you've spent most of your time on these boards calling people out for being anti-GW.

It falls flat to everyone but the people who find vaurious things about this current trend on this very forum hilarious. Ofcourse no anti-gw person ( be it 40-60% or 0-100% on the axis ) will find it so, they would be laughing at themselves. See my above post that pretty much summarizes how boring it´s getting.

Luckily the core of this wave ( as these do come in waves since the 90´s indeed, always doomsaying/predicting this and that and always failing in the end without exception as GW and the people who enjoy their games march on without effect ) consists of only around 7 users and it didn´t take too much effort to put them on ignore. Just goes to show it´s just a few dogs making all the negative noise.

So if you just ignore the people saying there's a problem, it means there's no problem at all.

Yet facts show a decline in sales and some VERY smart businesspeople have analyzed the financial report to indicate there are major issues.

 Blacksails wrote:

Not like there's a petition of nearly 10k people all seeking change from GW.

Because signing that petition equals being one of these users I mentioned. But you already knew that it doesn´t of course, so I don´t even know why you made this "comparison."

Even I signed the petition, as it was improvement suggestions presented in a neutral, good manner instead of the garbage you see in the vaurious threads from both sides. Just that the naysayers bore me more, as they have a continued trend of being wrong for over a decade, next to the continous negativity and other traits I already mentioned.

So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

Clearly you agree with what a lot of people say about GW if you've signed the petition. Maybe I'm not following why you seem to go on about all the anti-GW and GW hate.

I hope I've earned a spot on his ignore list.

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

Clearly you agree with what a lot of people say about GW if you've signed the petition. Maybe I'm not following why you seem to go on about all the anti-GW and GW hate.

He seems to be spouting out the typical crap that it's just a gang of us on forums like this and others who go around bashing GW and predicting doom while everyone else is happy, so by ignoring those 7 people he's eliminated all of the anti-GW sentiment, therefore it was just a gang of us forum trolls stirring the pot and GW is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I hope I've earned a spot on his ignore list.

I'm sure you have. Not sure if I am, 50/50 chance I think.

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

There´s a distinct small group of users that are responsible for around 80% of the anti-gw oriented content in the last 3 weeks, mostly generating negative content. They aren´t a problem per say, just that the amount of these threads and "discussions" is giving Dakka a bit of a negative vibe. And I haven´t ignored all of them, just the 4 most biased ones as there´s no point in interacting with stone walls.

 RunicFIN wrote:



It was humour, but I forgot I´m dealing with Comic Book Guys. Humour time over.

Humour 101: Be funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
So you're saying there's only 7 people who are a problem? I'm not quite following what you're saying about these 7 users you've ignored.

There´s a distinct small group of users that are responsible for around 80% of the anti-gw oriented content in the last 3 weeks, mostly generating negative content. They aren´t a problem per say, just that the amount of these threads and "discussions" is giving Dakka a bit of a negative vibe. And I haven´t ignored all of them, just the 4 most biased ones as there´s no point in interacting with stone walls.

I love the smell of bovine excrement in the evening.

You do get that if people are posting similar opinions, and creating threads around similar themes, it is because different people have similar opinions.

We don't all have a secret sub forum where we meet in advance and decide what topics we're going to post on just to annoy you.

Well, not every day.

Well, I'm sure we'll disagree on some of those users, and I certainly don't feel the negative vibe. I see a lot of people questioning what's going on with a game they clearly love enough to log on to a forum and express that sentiment, so I don't really have a problem with it.

Frankly, I see as much backlash in those threads from people complaining about complaining, or threads started in response to this 'anti-GW content'. Its a discussion forum, you're going to get opinions of every sort. Putting them into boxes with labels like 'Anti-GW', and by extension, 'Pro-GW' does nothing to further good discussion.

Always remember most of what you might deem negative is coming from people who genuinely either still love or care about the game, or want to come back to it. For a number of reasons, these people feel its not worth their time, money, and effort.

Instead of calling it a negative vibe, or disease, or anti whatever, try engaging and asking why or what GW could do in their opinion to bring them back. You'll develop a better understand of where these posts come from.

I haven't typed out pages worth of stuff about GW and 40k because I like to hate things. I do it because I would love for GW to pull its head out of its ass and make a game worth the price their asking.

Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

PhantomViper wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:

When you can point out where i've exactly said "bestest miniatures in the whole wide world" (and no goal post moving, I want that exact statement) I'll stop claiming you seem to be annoyed that i've spoken about a games company you are mad at.

I actually think for the record, Malifaux hold the title of 'best looking mini in a games system'.

There you go:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

Its not an exact quote but if you read my statement it was under quotation marks meaning that it wasn't an exact quote from you but that I was paraphrasing. You can read this article if you wan't to read further about what I meant in my reply (its the last example in that subsection). Funny how you are demonstrating these difficulties with the English language and its various styles of written prose when just a few posts ago you were bemoaning having been misinterpreted by non-native speakers...

Like I said, this might seem all fresh and new to you but we've all been around this dance floor with several WKs before that have used the exact same tactics as you are using, so I think I'll leave it now, because this is all getting quite boring for me.

See, it IS that easy to win an argument when you pull quotes out of context or pull replies out of a thread and stand them alone. You can even start telling people what they've said.

This is why I love the Internet, and having the last word of course (that's the best way to win)

 Azreal13 wrote:

We don't all have a secret sub forum where we meet in advance and decide what topics we're going to post on just to annoy you.

Well, not every day.

If you did and I didn't know about it, I'd be a little upset.

Did you not get the memo?

I'll get ALL OF THE MODS to add you to the mailing list.

That doesn't sound suspicious at all!

 Blacksails wrote:
Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGameJr and SONOFHistorian.

 Blacksails wrote:
That doesn't sound suspicious at all!

Nope, not in the least suspicious.

Nothing to see here.

 RunicFIN wrote:


I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGame Jr and SonOfHistorian.

There's a financial report every 6 months. The next one is a little over two months away. We'll know the state of GW far sooner than 5 years.

That and children terrify me. A puppy is enough work for me.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Either way, I wouldn't so quick to dismiss this as a cyclical thing. The GW of 20 years ago is not the GW of now in any way. They are two dramatically different companies in two dramatically environments, and I'd heed the warning signs and voices that are popping up.

I guess we´ll see about that in say, 5 years? Or 10 if that´s too soon. Guess I need to parent some wargamers pretty soon so they can be there in time to discuss things with Azreal19, WayneTheGame Jr and SonOfHistorian.

The flaw in the cyclical arguments is there are very good and tangible reasons that reset GW onto an upward trajectory on each of the last significant occasions that they were on their uppers. Kirby's buyout in the 90s and the LotR licence outperforming all expectations in the 00s.

I am at a loss to see where the next angelic event is going to come from, assuming they don't have something miraculous up their sleeve, and I can't even begin to guess at something feasible that could produce that sort of turnaround from GW itself, given their track record recently has just been to rehash older material.

Maybe 8th edition 40k?

They could finally nail it this time. For sure. Definitely.

With all the competition, it is hard to see what GW could do. Clearly the policy of expensive and poorly polished rules with hit and miss releases on a schedule no one knows isn't working. I'd also be doubtful that fixing most of those issues would bring back enough players who have stopped buying, at least in any meaningful way.

I guess they could always take a bit of a gamble and re-release most of the specialist line up with updated rules and new plastics.

So rather than GW specific rage, do we see any merit to tabletop gaming "end times"?

My kids and I like computer/tablet/game systems well enough but something about physical objects still have their draw.

I wish more gaming companies were publically traded so we could see trends other than the non-typical GW.

Fantasy Flight in particular is of interest; we cannot seem to keep X-wing stuff on the shelves in my area.

Magic the Gathering is HUGE in the area so facing an opponent and collectable items seem to be liked by customers.

Not much else I can point to; GW "end of times" seems to be the main topic and I know "it has been predicted before many times in the past".

Nah, tabletop wargaming predates GW and it will outlive it.

Should GW disappear (something I find difficult to believe, although I don't discount being changed beyond recognition) then the landscape will alter, there are enough credible alternatives to GW games now that people could switch - which is one of the key differences to other times when the death of GW has been predicted.