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Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Hello all, my copy of IA 13 has finally arrive and I've just spent the last couple hours reading my copy which fortuitously was sitting on my table as I walked in the door from the grocery store. Much like with IA12, there's some definitely awesome stuff and some duds.

(note: Mods, if this is too much, feel free to cut it down or let me know to do so, I'm basing it on a previous thread I did for part of the IA12 book but covering the entire thing this time).

Here's an up front TL;DR

It has some fluff on Chaos forgeworlds and some re-hashing of basic 40k Chaos background, adds Chaos variants of almost all Loyalist SM forgeworld stuff (tanks, walkers, flyers, superheavies, etc), covers all the Daemon engines, has some Chaos Titan stuff (*NO* Chaos Knights included but they do hint at their names), has a very interesting "Chaos IG" list, and some extra abilities for Chaos vehicles along with the big Lord of War daemons.


I'll go over each of the stuff in the sections they're covered in by the book

Before we get into anything if you see an option for Malefic Ammunition, it gives Rending to Heavy Bolters (and is usually very expensive).

Tanks:

Chaos Predator: basic background and some art of various paint schemes, no rules.

Chaos Infernal Relic Predator:
Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one), starts out at just under the price of a basic Chaos Predator with HB sponsons and comes with a Flamestorm Cannon like a Baal pred. Can upgrade to a Heavy Conversion Beamer (like normal one but with Large Blast instead of just Blast) for about 10pts more than a Rhino (I don't think it'll be a terribly popular option), can be swapped with an AP3 Autocannon for free or a TL Lascannon for 10pts, a Magna Melta for 10pts less than a Rhino (the gun off the Devil-Dog), or a Plasma Destroyer (like IG Executioner) for the price of a basic CSM with a CCW. In addition to the normal sponson options it can carry heavy flamers for the same price as HB's. All the normal CSM vehicle options are there. It does have an option for Malefic Ammunition but it's just under the cost of a Rhino. Overall, I feel the Plasma Destroyer option might see some use, some people might like the AP3 upgrade for the Autocannon, but I think the HCB option is just way too expensive for most looking into the tank while the Flamestorm and Heavy Flamer sponsons will be of too limited use on a vehicle lacking Fast movement.
(Side Note: *This entry does have a *VERY* cool looking pic of a "Slaughterkin" version that looks exceedingly daemonic)


Chaos Vindicator:
basic background and some art of various paint schemes, no rules.

Chaos Relic Sicaran Battle Tank: This is something that I think many CSM players will see and instantly want. It is an Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one)...and is Fast!. Basic cost before any upgrades is just under that of a Chaos tri-las Predator. It has better side and rear armor than a Predator (same front), and gets a TL'd autocannon turret with three times the normal number of shots, with rending and ignoring Jink saves like the old Hydra (still mad about what they did to the poor Hydra...but that's for another thread) EDIT: and a hull mounted heavy bolter. It can take HB's or Lascannons as sponson options for the same cost as a normal Predator. It has all the normal CSM vehicle options, and the option for Armored Ceramite at the same cost as HB sponsons for a Predator, and Malefic ammunition for HB's for just over the cost of a Rhino. This tank has a huge role to fill as a Skimmer Killer/AA tank (even without Skyfire), and can basically be equipped as an "all comers" vehicle to deal with any threat put on the board. I'm 100% going to pick up one at some point, the thing just looks super cool on its own, and has ace rules that fill a much needed gap on top of that. Expect to see these a lot in CSM armies where FW isn't an issue.

Chaos Land Raider:
basic background and some art of various paint schemes, no rules.

CSM Land Raider Proteus:
sort of a "Land Raider Lite". Costs what two basic CSM predators with HB sponsons would, and has Fear, carries as much as a basic Land Raider. No Assault Vehicle, and is armed with two TL lascannons, can buy a TL heavy bolter for the same price as Predator HB sponsons, can take Pintle mounted MM, Combi-bolter, HB or HF. Has all normal CSM vehicle options plus Armored Ceramite. Can take an Ark of Unnameable Horror for the price of a Taurox and reduces transport capacity by two, which makes anything that wants to shoot at it take a pinning test, if they fail they go to ground and cannot shoot, doesn't apply to Fearless units or weapons that don't need LoS. This doesn't really serve a purpose that I see, and its exorbitantly expensive special equipment is highly variable in utility to say the least. Not quite sure what FW was going for here with this.

Chaos Infernal Relic Achilles:
Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one), costs 100pts more than a basic CSM Land Raider. Has a Quad Mortar Thudd Gun instead of a Thunderfire Cannon but increases its S and decreases its AP by one for every HP lost (so when its down to 1 HP it has the same S and AP as a Bright Lance), two sponson TL MM's. Comes with Armored Ceramite and Extra Armour. Does NOT have Ferromantic Invulnerability. Transport Capacity of 6. Has all the same vehicle and pintle options as other Land Raiders. Malefic Ammunition can be taken for the price of a CSM with a CCW. Overall, this thing is notably less capable than its Loyalist counterpart (lacking Ferromantic Invulnerability and PotMS), and somehow manages to actually be more expensive, and for its price I don't see it making an appearance in CSM armies, particularly when lacking the one special rule that makes it somewhat scary.

Chaos Rhino: basic background and some art of various paint schemes, no rules.


Chaos Heavy Tanks

Chaos Fellblade: Lord of War. Identical to loyalist version except has some of the CSM vehicle options. Somehow manages to be cheaper than a basic IG baneblade after GW's Escalation book jacked those up in cost, even with 3 more HP and BS4. Basically this thing has to sponson mounted 2 shot TL lascannons, a demolisher cannon, a hull TL heavy bolter, and a TL'd Fellbade Accelerator Cannon, which either has a Massive Blast battlecannon shot, or an Armorbane small blast lascannon shot for hunting tanks. Overall, a very scary vehicle, but nothing particularly Chaos-ey about it, which I guess is fine. As a LoW, it's pretty solid, without being absurdly overpowered. Doesn't get the AP2 or quite the same size template as a baneblade, but has 3 extra HP.

Chaos Typhon Heavy Siege Tank
: Lord of War. Basically a Vindicator with twice the HP and Land Raider armor. Its gun gets AP1 and can shoot out to 48" if stationary, and is a Massive Blast that ignores cover. Gets +1 on the Thunderblitz table. Costs the same as a TLLC+HB pred and barebones CSM Land Raider together cost. Can take HB or LC sponsons at Predator costs. Can take Malefic Ammunition for a bit more than a Rhino. Overall, a potentially very scary LoW that can blast the bejeezus out of an entrenched opponent on the other side of the board, but lacking the HP count of most superheavies. Overall, for its cost, can be a very capable and relatively cheap Lord of War that can gut a gunline or put down a Deathstar that's not reliant on Invul saves very quickly.

Chaos Spartan Assault Tank:
It's a Land Raider with an extra HP, double the lascannon shots, and a capacity of 25, for a little more than the price of a CSM Land Raider+Taurox, and comes with Extra Armor. NOT a Superheavy/Lord of War, but a Heavy Support unit. It can swap its Quad Lascannons (2 shot TL lascannons) for Laser Destroyers for free, but there's not much of a point. Can take Armored Ceramite, MM/HF/HB/Combi pintle options, and most CSM vehicle options. Can take Malefic Ammunition for the price of a Rhino or swap its TLHB for a TLHF for free. Does have the option to take Frag Assault Launcher for a bit less than the price of a basic CSM. Honestly, if you're looking at a Land Raider in a CSM army, it might as well be this, you get a lot more firepower and a lot more transport capacity for a little less than a 25% price increase, plus can get the option to nullify Melta double-pen. It's expensive, but it's probably worth the extra investment.

Chaos Attack Craft

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship
: Largely like the loyalist version, but cheaper due to not having PotMS. Fast Attack unit. Like a Stormraven but with an extra HP, costs 25pts less than a basic CSM Land Raider. Comes with a two shot Large Blast missile launcher with the S and AP of a Heavy Bolter, and a TL Heavy Bolter. Comes with EA, Armored Ceramite. Can swap the HB for a TL-MM for the price of a CSM with a CCW, single Havoc Launcher for the price of a guardsmen, or for free for a Reaper Autocannon. Can take two TLLC's for just under the price of a Chimera, four Hellstrike Missile for just over the price of a Rhino, or four Balefire missiles (S5 AP6 ignore cover) for the price of a Taurox. Transport Capacity twice that of a Rhino. I'm sort of conflicted on this, it can pack a huge amount of firepower, but will also cost quite a bit. Overall, probably a little more viable than a Stormraven, and a nice option to have, but certainly not a must-take.

Chaos Fire Raptor Gunship: Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one). Heavy Support unit. Costs the same as two Thunderfire cannons base. Same armor as a Stormraven but with one extra HP. No transport capacity. Packs a TL Avenger Bolt Cannon (autocannon with a bit shorter range, AP3, and three and a half times the normal number of shots), two quad Heavy Bolters (TL six shot HB's), and four Hellstrike missiles. Has Strafing Run. The turrets can fire independently of other weapons and don't count towards the number of weapons the vehicle can fire, and can be upgrade to Reaper Batteries (Reaper Autocannons with twice as many shots) for a bit less than the price of a basic CSM. You can replace the Hellstrike missiles with Balefire missiles (see above) for the price of a CSM with a CCW. Can take Armored Ceramite and a few CSM vehicle upgrades. Can take Malefic Ammunition for HB's for just under the price of a Chimera or the price of a Rhino if equipped with Reaper Batteries. To me, personally, this thing is super cool. It's a devastatingly capable gunship that's going to tear apart infantry and light vehicles very quickly. I think the Malefic Ammunition upgrade is too expensive to justify, but would make this thing even scarier. This thing is one of the big wins for the CSM's in the book, a very capable and deadly flier. I think in terms of raw cost effectiveness that a Baleflamer Helldrake is probably still better, but I think this thing would be a lot more fun, and is much better at taking out lighter infantry like IG and Tau.

Chaos Space Marine Thunderhawk Gunship:
Largely identical to loyalist version, can't take IA: Aeronatica options like Illum Flares or Flare/Chaff Launcher but whatever. Has an option to take Daemonic Transport for the price of a Taurox, doesn't affect BS but any turn where infantry are embarked, roll a D6, on a 1 it eats D3 random occupants and regains that many HP. I don't see that option being taken often except possibly with a cheap unit of cultists just to regain HP's for the big scary flyer, but will make it relatively ineffective its transport role at that point. Overall, not much to write home about, it's a big flyer with Baneblade HP and lots of guns. Can take Malefic Ammunition for a bit more than the price of a Taurox. An OK Lord of War, harder to kill as its a flyer, but not as much raw firepower as most other Superheavies.

Chaos Hellblade: A very light flyer, armored and HP'd like a Land Speeder with IG BS, Fast Attack unit. Costs as much as a Predator with a TLLC and no sponsons. Comes base with two Reaper Autocannons, and for the price of a CSM with a CCW, can be upgraded to two Helstorm Autocannons, EDIT: these give an extra shot and Rending, not AP3, bad reading on my part. Has the Unnatrual Predator special rule, chooses an enemy flyer, FMC or GC and rerolls armor pen and to-wound rolls of 1 against it. Also has Baleful Aberration, meaning it has a 5+ invul save and can reposition D6+2" in the movement phase before moving but must keep the same facing/orientation. Overall, it's a relatively fragile flyer, but when given the AC upgrades, hits like a truck. You can give it daemonic possession for normal codex cost, but I don't see why you would. Good at killing other flyers and exceedingly capable at engaging FMC's, not bad at engaging other ground targets, but its not going to last very long either.

Chaos Helltalon:
Also armored as per a Land Speeder, but has as many HP's as a Land Raider. Fast Attack unit. Base cost is 20pts more than a tri-las Chaos predator. Comes with a TLLC, Reaper AC, and eight bombs with the same S and AP as a heavy bolter and ignore cover (small blast). Has Strafing Run and same Baleful Aberration rule as the Hellblade. You can upgrade the RAC for the same price as on the Hellblade but there's only one, not two, or you can swap it for a Havoc Launcher for free. You can also give it Daemonic Possession, but again, I'm not sure why you'd bother. Can swap its normal bombs for Alchem Cluster Bombs(3 small blasts, poison 4+) a bit less than the price of a basic CSM each, Baletalon Shatterbombs (only hit on 6's, no Blast, 3 shots per bomb, S and AP of Hades Autocannon) for free, or Warp-Pulse bombs (large blast, Blind, haywire, strength of a Grot with AP of a Lascannon) for the price of a CSM with CCW each. Not as much of a fan of this guy as the Hellblade. Has more HP's but *really* light armor, and doesn't have appreciably more firepower even with the bombs, while costing a whole lot more, and the cost of upgrading each bomb is per bomb, so upgrading multiple bombs is absurdly expensive, though does give you the option to mix and match. On top of that, it's got more bombs than it can actually use in a game Pretty on par with the more mediocre codex flyers I think.

Chaos Dreadclaw Drop Pod:
Fast Attack unit, NOT a dedicated Transport. Cost is identical to a Chaos predator with TLLC and no sponsons (yup). Transport capacity of 10, or one Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought, or Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, or Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought. AV and HP's identical to loyalist iteration. Has same Drop Pod Assault rule but no Innertial Guidance (ouch!). After coming in however, it is a Flyer with Hover. It has a Heat Blast which has two effects. First is that when it comes in, any modelwithin D3+3" is hit with a flamed based S6 AP5 no-cover attack, vehicles hit on weakest AV. After that, it can move around like a Flyer or Hover mode, and any unit it passes directly over gets hit with D6 S6 AP5 no-cover hits, vehicles on weakest armor, wound allocation is decided by the opposing player. Each time the second type of attack is attempted, roll a D6, on a 1 it takes a Penetrating hit. I think FW went overboard on this one, instead of just giving CSM players a useable drop pod, they over-engineered it to do far more than anyone cares about, and while potentially not ineffective running around flaming stuff, its DS attack without inertial guidance is highly risky, and it just costs way more points than anyone is going to want to bother with, nearly 3x as much as a normal drop pod. While cool on paper, it's a case of "better is the enemy of good enough".

Chaos Kharbydis Assault Claw: Same AV as normal drop pod, but with 5 HP's. Heavy Support unit (yes really). Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one) Has same drop pod assault rules and Heat Blast as above, but *does* have Inertial Guidance. Can Ram as if it were a Tank when in Hover mode, but not other flyers or on the turn it comes in, or on any turn it uses Heat Blast. Curiously, it is an Assault Vehicle, so if it picks something up and moves them after coming in, they can assault out of it. By default comes with Daemonic Possession, so that can be a damper if it eats someone. Also has Frag Assault Launchers. It comes with five Kharbydis Storm Launchers, which have the same S and AP as the Heat blast, but are 2 shot 24" heavy 2 Pinning and Twin Linked (no ignores cover), each of which can target and fire on different units. It has a transport capacity of 20, or can take a single Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought, or Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, or Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought, Helbrute, or Chaos Rapier Weapons Battery. Cost is just under a CSM Rhino+CSM Land Raider. Personally, with this costing such a huge amount of points and being a Heavy Support unit, I'm not sure this thing is going to see many tables. It can put out a lot of anti-infantry hurt, and do a decent job on vehicle rear armor, but its just extraordinarily expensive. Again, I believe another case of "better is the enemy of good enough". An interesting unit to be sure however.

Chaos Drednoughts and Helbrutes

Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought: Elite unit, Infernal Relic (Have to take Abaddon, Malefic Sorceror, or Warpsmith to take more than one). Base cost is same as naked Helbrute+Rhino. Comes with Fear and WS5/BS5. aside from that has same basic Dreadnought AV/HP, has same ranged weapons options as Loyalist basic dreads, has largely the same CCW swap options as Helbrutes. Can take Malefic Ammunition for price of a Rhino. Base comes with MM and DCCW w/TL bolter. Can be dedicated to a Chaos God, all are twice the price of a Meltagun except Slaanesh. Khorne gives Rage and Rampage, Nurgle gives IWND, Slaanesh gives assault/defensive grenades, Tzeentch gives 6++ and Soul Blaze with heavy flamers. Has three additional somewhat interesting options. The first is Lord of the Long War (10pts less than a Rhino), allows it to accept/declare challenges, and if it Explodes (not dies from HP or anything else) then on a 1 or 2 you get a Spawn, 3 or 4 you reroll the Explodes result (if you get it again you keep it), and on a 5 or 6 you get a Daemon Prince with the same Mark as the Dedication. The next one is Host of Daemonic Iron (price of 2x Meltaguns), which allows it to ignore shaken/stunned on 2+ and any unit that causes it to lose an HP in an assault takes an S4 AP3 hit. The last one is Destroyer of Cities (just under Rhino cost) and gives it a Siege Drill, which increases front AV to 13 and gives it Move through Cover, and replaces the DCCW with a Assault drill, which is Strength X2 AP2 Armourbane with a heavy flamer, if it penetrates a building or vehicle with it then all occupants suffer a heavy flamer hit (once per phase, not per hit). Overall, rather pricey I think for what it is base, I don't think Fear and increased WS/BS merit quite that high a price increase, but I think the Destroyer of Cities option may have a place, AV13 making a huge world of difference and the ability to toast a squad of Guardsmen or Dire Avengers inside their transport can be very handy indeed. Makes handy rules though for FW Dreads that don't quite look right as "Helbrutes". Some fluff on Helbrutes and Dreads given.

Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought:
Elite Unit. NOT an Infernal Relic. Has same WS/BS as Ferrum Infernus and all other stats as normal dread. Base cost is 20pts more than CSM Trilas predator. Comes with DCCW with TL bolter, TL Sonic Blaster, and Doom Siren. Comes dedicated to Slaanesh as above. Has option to upgrade Sonic Blaster to Blastmaster for same price as basic CSM with CCW, other swap options largely identical to normal dread. Can take a Warp Amp which allows it to sit still and fire all Sonic Weaponry (Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster, Blastmaster) twice. Can take Malefic Ammunition for the price of 2x Meltas if it takes a Heavy Bolter (why on either?). Can fire all Sonic Weapons in Overdrive, which gives them Rending and Gets Hot. While I love this model and its concept, its pricing is abysmal, especially if you give it a blast master and warp amp. Could be 30-50pts cheaper. But, the model is cool and it fits a great theme, I can see some EC players fitting it in regardless.

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought
: Elites unit. Has Fleet and Adamantium Will. Base cost is just under the cost of two Thunderfire cannons. Standard Dreadnought profile except has WS5 and front AV13. Comes standard with DCCW and TLHB. Has a Hellfire Reactor which gives 4++ against glances and 6+ against pens, and any model with the psyker rule takes an S2 AP2 hit at I10 if in base contact, and when it explodes adds D3" to the explosion radius. Can swap TLHB for a MM for free, a Heavy Conversion Beamer for the price of a Rhino, a Butcher Cannon (identical to Hades Autocannon) for 10pts less than a Rhino, TL AC for the price of a guardsmen, TLLC for the same as a Butcher Cannon, or a Plasma Cannon for the same cost as a basic Meltagun. Can swap DCCW for Chainfist or TL Autocannon for the price of a meltagun, a TLHB or MM for free, and other options (Butcher Cannon, TLLC, PC) same as above but can't swap DCCW for HCB. Can replace any combi-bolter for HF for standard dread cost, for a melta for the price of a normal plasma gun, a Soulburner (same as Eldar Missile Launcher but half the range and with Rending) for 10pts less than a Rhino, or a Plasma Blaster (Assault 2 18" plasma gun) for the price of 2x meltaguns. Can take Malefic Ammunition for HB's for just above the price of a Rhino. Can take Extra Armor, and can be dedicated to a Chaos God same as above. It can also take a Havoc Launcher for the price of a CSM with a CCW. Overall, it's an interesting unit concept, but not quite as capable as the loyalist version, and *very* expensive indeed. The AV13 and invuls help though, and the Legion-specific models are absolutely ace. Not the greatest of units, but useable, and I can see people fitting them in just because they look cool.

Daemon Engines:


There's some fluff on the Daemon Engines from the CSM and Daemon books (Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Soul Grinders), but no new options or rules.

Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne: Lord of War, similar AV to Baneblade but weaker rear and same HP's. Init of IG and triple the attacks of an SM Captain. Cost is 7x that of a Thunderfire cannon. Same WS/BS as other Daemon Engines. Gets D3+2 stomps, gets 3d6 for charge move. Any psyker that casts on it automatically suffers Perils. When it blows up it gets +2 on Catastrophic table. It has a Scorpion Cannon (Helldrake Baleflamer S and AP, Heavy Bolter range, half the shots of an IG Punisher cannon), Soulburner Cannon (ignores cover Primary Weapon Demolisher Cannon), and two Hellmaw Cannons (Baleflamer without Torrent). Overall, a very scary piece of kit, but costed to match as its significantly more expensive than a Baneblade or Fellblade. Excellent model and pretty solid rules.

Blood Slaughterer of Khorne:
Heavy support unit, available to CSM's and Daemons, has similar profile to Dreadnought, WS5 BS1 and front AV13. Costs 10pts less than a Trilas predator. Ignores Shaken/Stunned on 2+ and counts as a Daemon of Khorne. Can Deep Strike. Has Fleet. Gets extra, random, charge attacks. Always has to move/consolidate towards the nearest visible enemy, does not have to run but if it does the same applies. Can take an Impaler for the price of a guardsmen, which is anattack that hits on a 4+, has S and P of Krak missile, on a successful pen or wound against an MC and moves it 2d6" towards the Blood Slaughterer, and if it comes in contact then it counts as having charged it. Overall, the movement restrictions can suck, but it's at least somewhat sanely costed relative to the other walkers in the book.

Chaos Rapier Weapons Carrier: Rapier artillery units (not quite sure why they're in this section, but whatever). Heavy Support unit. Comes base for slightly more than a Rhino, comes with 2 CSM crew and gun with a Quad HB (double shots, TL'd). Can take up to three per HS slot. Can swap Quad HP for Laser Destroyer (classic Rapier weapon, cut-range TL lascannon with Ordnance rule) for the price of a CSM with CCW, an Ectoplasma Cannon for the same price, a Hades Autocannon for 10pts less than a Rhino, or a Cyclotrathe Pattern Conversion Beamer (shorter range conversion beamer with Large Blast) for the price of a Rhino. Overall, quite hardy and killy with just about any weapon you equip it with, definitely a consideration for replacing Obliterators or Havocs if you're looking for a back-field heavy weapons unit, these things put out tons of firepower with lots of resiliency for a very low price.

Chaos Decimator: Elites unit, Same profile as Maulerfiend but with double the attacks and higher frontal AV and +2 base Strength. Base cost is 25pts less than CSM Land Raider. Can be taken by CSM's and Daemosn. Has the Daemon special rule and can Deep Strike, ignores Shaken/Stunned on a 2+. Has Unholy Vigor, if it dies through something other than an Explodes result, then you lay it down, and roll a D6 each turn, on a 1 you remove it, on a 2-5 you leave it, and on a 6 it stands back up with all weapons intact and D3 hull points. Also ignores any Immobilized/Weapon Destroyed results on a 5+. Comes base with two Siege Claws (S: User, AP2) both of which have heavy flamers and have the same Heavy Flamer ability as the Ferrum Infernus assault drill Dread. It has several ranged weapons options, but if you take any it reduces Attacks by 1 (so if you upgrade both it's down to 2A). It can swap one Siege Claw for a Heavy Conversion Beamer for the price of a Rhino. It can swap the other for a Butcher Cannon for the price of 2x Meltaguns, a Storm Laser (baleflamer S and AP, HB range, D3+2 shots) for the price of a plasma gun, or a Soulburner Petard (S5 AP5 24" large blast rending) for the price of a basic meltagun. Can be dedicated to a Chaos God. Nurgle for 10pts less than a Rhino gives IWND. Khorne for the price of a Plasma Gun gives Rampage. Slaanesh for the same price as Khorne gives Assault/Defensive Grenades. Tzeentch for the same price as Nurgle gives rerolls of 1's on shooting attacks and heavy flamers gain Soul Blaze. Overall, I really like this model, I own one, but it's also *real* expensive for what it offers, not a great unit for the points, but looks very cool.

Blight Drones: Fast Attack unit. Squadronable up to 3. AV like a Chimera but better side AV. Cost as a basic Leman Russ Battle Tank. Flyer with Hover mode. Comes with a gun identical to an LRBT Battle Cannon with half the range, which can also be fired as an S6 heavy flamer. Also has a Reaper Autocannon. Counts as a Daemon of Nurgle. When it loses its last HP it counts as an Explodes result. Ignores shaken/stunned on a 2+. Can be taken by Daemons and CSM's. Overall, these are *very* good indeed, and probably the one thing I think crosses the line into potentially abuseable if spammed.

Plague Hulk of Nurgle:
Heavy Support unit. Same cost as LRBT. Soul Grinder profile, I2, BS2. Has an Unwieldy Strength X2 AP2 "Iron Claw" that it can upgrade to a Warpsword for ten points less than a Rhino costs which lets it strike at normal Init and is AP3 mastercrafted (why...?). Comes with Rancid Vomit (AP3 heavy flamer that's poisoned 3+) and a Rot Cannon (Baleflamer S and AP, rending, large blast, Heavy Bolter range). Can Deep Strike. Ignores Shaken/Stunned on a 2+. An obvious improvement on the Defiler, and a great pickup .

Chaos Titans

Chaos Reaver Battle Titan: Lord of War. Costs a lot, costs 40pts less than 6 basic loyalists SM Land Raiders. Has 6x the HP of a normal vehicle. Obviously very scary. Weapons profiles curiously aren't included but are referenced to Apocalypse. Has a range of dedication options, all in the triple digits. Khorne gives Hatred of Slaanesh, rerolls the number of stomp attacks it makes, gains D3 attacks on a charge. Nurgle gives Hatred of Tzeentch, IWND (on 18HP ). Tzeentch gives Hatred of Nurgle, rerolls of 1's to hit and inferno cannons gain Soul Blaze. Slaanesh gives Hatred of Khorne and all units in combat with it have to pass Ld on -2 or reduce Init to 1. All dedications also make it count as a Daemon of that god. Also blows up spectacularly. Very cool model, obviously not something most will ever see.

Chaos Warhound: Lord of War: costs 2x loyalist Land Raider+CSM Land Raider. AV and HP identical to Baneblade. Weapons options similarly pointed to Apocalypse book. Has same Dedication options as above but halved in price. Great model, scary weapons, but not overbearingly powerful as an expensive Lord of War.


Renegades and Heretics:


This is a "Traitor Guard" list that has a lot of interesting options, but unfortunately also a lot of duds.

First off, it has the same allies options as CSM's, can can be allied with, or be taken as an ally to, CSM's as Battle Brothers. Uses a basic standard FoC.

Now, since this is already super long and I don't want to run afoul of any forum rules, I'm going to avoid getting into quite as much detail here as I did above.

Ultimately, this army is going to be the ultimate "quantity has a quality all its own" army, putting even IG to shame. Stuff is cheap, cheap cheap. Very much it's going to be based around gargantuan numbers of infantry typically and more Artillery than anyone can imagine, though there are some possible alternate builds. That said, saves are nonexistent or usually 6+, and Ld very vulnerable. All Ld for units is D6+4, rolled the first time it has to test, so that's Ld5-10 depending on the roll. Some units have the Fanatic rule where they pick 2d6 and drop the lowest. Almost all units are WS2/BS2 but can be upgraded to WS3/BS3 to match IG cost, but most also still lack any armor saves and most can only take a 6+ as an upgrade. Vox isn't used for orders but to reroll the Ld, Command Vox does the same and allows for units within 12" to use command squads Ld. In place of a special weapon however, most units can take a Chaos Sigil, which ignores the Morale or Pinning test a unit would be required to make *each turn*. This makes the infantry squads somewhat solid, but the artillery will usually be stuck with whatever they happen to roll.

Some units have/can get a "Curse of mutation". This is functionally a D3 roll, first one gives Fear but reduces friendly unit's Ld within 6" by 1, second one gives Acute Senses and Scout, but counts blast/barrage and heavy weapons they're hit with as having Blind, and the last gives Hammer of Wrath attacks at +1S and must always attempt to charge if within 12".

The Warlord chart has some interesting options.

1 gives *you* a VP for the destruction of a friendly unit with the random Ld rule within 12" on a successful D6 roll of 5+
2 allows you to kill some models in your Warlord's squad to auto-rally a falling back unit (doesn't matter where it is).
3 allows you to change a reserve roll each turn (both yours and your opponents) and make it come in on a 2+ or a 6+ regardless of modifiers, very powerful.
4 is rather stupid, if in a combat but not in b2b, then he can inflict a low S Ap2 hit on one model in the combat within 3" and forfeit all other attacks, but can be done into challenges.
5 allows one unit once per turn to roll an additional D6 and pick the highest on the Building damage table.
6 inflicts an auto-wound at Init 1 on every model in b2b with your warlord and gains Fear.

Then there are Covenants are dedicated to each god and are kinda like marks but cheaper and usually weaker. Khorne rerolls failed to-wound rolls in first turn of an assault. Nurgle gives 6+ FNP. Slaanesh gives Fleet. Tzeentch allows Snapshots at BS2. Available on most units for very cheap. Which Covenant the Renegade Command Squad takes can influence what other units they can take.

HQ:

Renegade Command Squad:
Just a tad more expensive than IG platoon command squad, most options are and the same price but a couple are a little more expensive. Can only take 1 special weapon. Have a couple banner options (Banner of Hate - units within 12" roll 3d6, take 2 lowest for Ld, Banner of the Apostate - adds +1 to score in CC for unit carrying it), can take command vox, does have random Ld. Come with a 5+ save and WS3/BS4. Is lead by an Arch-Demagogue, who *is* and independent Character (unlike IG Company Commanders) basically a cheaper, but less capable Company Command Squad

There are Devotions that the Arch-Demagogue can take. (range from Plasma Gun cost to Rhino cost)
Primaris-Rogue Witch
Makes Demagogue a Psyker, can be upgraded to level 2, can take Malefic Daemonology, Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telekenesis. Cannot take a Covenant of Khorne. Allows Rogue Psykers Coven as an Elites in addition to HQ.
Mutant Overlord
Has a mutation table to roll on 3 times that increases stats, 1's reduce I or A by 1 but multiple's of this are rerolled. Any army with this devotion must take two mutant rabbles and can take one unit of Spawn as a non-compulsory troops. Ogryns can take Curse of Mutation
Master of the Horde
Expands Renegade Infantry Squad max size to 30, any Renegade Infantry Squad that started the game with at least 15 models can be recycled if destroyed on a D6 roll of 5+
Arch Heretic Revolutionary
Demagogue gains Zealot and doesn't pay for a Covenant if it wants one. May take Fanatic for Renegade Infantry and Renegade Veterans for the price of a Lascannon. Enforcers can be taken up to 10 per slot instead of 5.
Heretek Magus
Upgrades demagogue to T4 and 3+sv and gets FNP 6+. May take Defilers as Heavy Support and Decimators as Elites. May give FNP 6+ to most infantry squads and all Artillery type units for the price of a meltagun
Bloody Handed Reaver
Demagogue gains refractor field, and krak grenades. May take a hotshot pistol or lasgun for price of a flamer. Renegade Veterans may be upgraded to Grenadiers for the price of a Plasma Gun and upgrades lasguns to Hotshot Lasguns, and can take a Hotshot Volleygun at 1 per 5 for the price of a meltagun (apparently on top of normal special weapon options). Can upgrade most infantry units to get Flak armor for the price of a meltagun (no matter the size) if they take the WS3/BS3 upgrade. this is the most interesting one to me in terms of making a different army build than the rest of the options

Very "Doctrine"-ey. The Devotions are very cool and will make for a lot of characterful lists, I really like these.

Rogue Psykers Coven
0-1 option. 1-5 Psykers conscript statline but W2, cannot join units and operate on their own. Rhino priced per psyker. Roll on their own 3-power table, cannot take rulebook powers. First power is a short range S7 haywire small blast attack. Second attack reduces nearby enemy target init to 1 and forces all shots to fire as snapshots, fearless units are immune, ATSKNF/Stubborn units can roll Ld to resist. Last power gives Fleet and Crusader to nearby friendly unit. The amusing part is if they take a wound due to Perils, they're immediately replaced with a "Possessed", with full wounds, no powers but Ld10, WS5 S5 and as many attacks as an SM captain. Cheap, disposable psykers. Not my cup of tea, but I'm sure some will like them.

Enforcer Cadre
Basically W2 Commissars, except they choose who dies and you only get a reroll not an auto-pass, half the cost of a Taurox. Whatever unit they join adds +1 to Ld. Can take 1-5 and must join other infantry units. Still have variable Ld Kinda neat, they may or may not be useful, can still get stuck with awful Ld and aren't as reliable as Commissars

Elites

Renegade Marauder Squad
Only available if your command squad has no covenant. Kinda like vets, but unfortunately more expensive, come with Flak armor. Can come with Outflank, Stealth, Move through Cover, or Furious Charge and Crusader, or 4+sv and Krak grenades. Cannot take more than 1. Can take up to two "brutes" (super expensive) but have SM-ish stats, 3 wounds, and Bulky and Rending. Can take two special weapons. Can never regroup if they fail Ld. Have Ld7/8w/squad leader. Kinda neat,but ultimately expensive for what they offer, on par with Scions or Doctrined Vets from old IG book after kit

Renegade Chaos Spawn
Identical to CSM Spawn, but no options. Come as a unit of 3, cannot take more. Absurdly cheap (less than price of 2 from CSM book). You'll see these a lot, very cheap for tough, reliable CC

Renegade Disciple Squad
This books equivalent of Vets, have BS4, still have random Ld, only 1 special weapon allowed. Have Flak armor. More expensive carapace option than Vets, no other real options like Vet Doctrines. Do have Fanatic rule however (get 2d6 drop lowest to determine Ld) basically an expensive Infantry Squad that can take Carapace, not very inspiring

Renegade Ogryn Brutes
Like normal Ogryns, no Bonehead, but are Fearless (HOORAY!) and come with Rampage, but have Random attacks (D6). Unfortunately cost as much as as a basic CSM Sorceror each and have no save, but can take Flak for very cheap or Carapace for a fairly reasonable price if the unit is well-sized. Have an option to take Chaos Hounds, which are slightly less impressive than the Ogryns but allow them to roll 2d6 and drop the lowest when rolling for Sweeping Advance. Can be taken in squads up to 10, starting with just 1. These guys have the fixes to make Ogryns work, and work well. Unfortunately they cost half again as much as a basic Ogryn before any options, I'm not sure if that's enough to make them worth it or not, these could be solid or still overcosted.

Renegade Blood Slaughterers - as above, only available if your HQ has a covenant of Khorne Probably one of the better Elites options, provided you can keep it from being baited

Renegade Blight Drones - as above, only available if your HQ has a covenant of Nurgle Hands down the best Elites option, taking these are Elites is awesome

Troops

Renegade Infantry Platoon: (same reserve roll rules and FoC slot occupancy as IG infantry platoon)
Taken as 3-5 squads of Renegade Infantry Squads, one must be designated the Command Squad (at no cost) and upgrades a model to a Demagogue. WS2/BS2 no save, but absurdly cheap (like grots), expandable up to 20, 30 with a specific Devotion. every 5 can take a special weapon, every 10 a heavy (so 10 can have 2 specials, 1 heavy). Heavy Stubber is a heavy weapon option, very cheap. Come base with CCW/pistol, exchange for lasgun for free. Can be upgraded to WS3/BS3 for very cheap and regardless of squad size. Can be given a 6+ save for very cheap. One model can be upgraded to a champion who has access to a variety of normal-ish squad leader options, same with Demagogue. these guys kinda suck a lot initially, but are super-cheap, and can actually be upgraded to be shootier than an IG blob squad, but don't have the same support capabilities.

Renegade Mutant Rabble
Again, as above, comes with 10 models for super cheap, automatically have Curse of Mutation, come with CCW and pistol. Can upgrade a model to a Champion (+1A only) for very cheap and be given some limited options. Can exchange pistol or CCW for lasgun, and can be given a 6+ save for the entire unit (regardless of size) for the price of 2 basic guardsmen. The big thing? Can be expanded up to 50 models, but will very obviously require some sort of support at that point. With some sort of character support, especially in an allied army, these guys will be absolutely hilarious tarpit/objective holders

Renegade Infantry Veterans
WS4 instead of BS4. Start out at 5 fairly cheap, expandable to 10 for a lot more than the initial 5. Can take 1 special weapon per 5. Come with pistol/CCW/frag/krak and can exchange pistol or CCW for lasgun. Can take carapace for more than codex Vets. Can take any one of a variety of special rules for different costs, Furious Charge, Scout, Deep Strike, or Tank Hunters. One model can be upgraded to a champion and be given some limited options. Obviously somewhat disappointing compared with normal vets, but the options to purchase special rules are cool. Not sure the unit will see a whole lot of use however

Plague Zombie Horde
Only available with Nurgle covenant on command squad. WS2/BS2 FNP 4+, S&P, Fearless, I2. Again, absurdly cheap (grot price). Come standard as 10, can expand to up to 50. If they defeat a unit in CC (destroy or force to flee) they add D3 zombies which can take them above starting number of models. this blows the infantry platoon and mutant rabble out of the water as a CC tarpit horde or objective holder. Clearing 50 T4 4+FNP Fearless models that only cost as much as a Russ tank off an objective is going to be extremely difficult to move off

Dedicated Transport:

Chimera:
same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. All Chimera options there, plus Autocannon turret.

Fast Attack

Hellhound Squadron

same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. Same variants available. As with their codex IG equivalents, I feel these are overcosted by 30-50pts easily, but largely they're identical

Renegade Sentinel Squadron same as Codex Scout Sentinels but do not have Scout, come as a unit of 3 for just under the price of a basic Chimera. WS2/BS2, can be expanded to 6 Sentinels. Upgrade to WS3/BS3 is expensive for minimum sized unit but cheap for max sized unit. Can take "heavy armor" to upgrade to front AV12 and loses move through cover. If you take both upgrades with max squad size they're identical in price to codex Armored Sentinels per model but have a six model size. Otherwise they're real expensive. not too hot on these, lacking Scout they lose the big reason to take the lighter ones, and it's hard to see a reason for a large unit of Armored Sentinels to make them priced appropriately

Renegade Salamander Squadron same as Imperial Armour 1 but 10pts cheaper and BS2 and don't get Scout, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. Eh, cheap Fast AV12, kinda ok buy if you need to fill up some last points. Heavy Flamer equipped ones may be nice alternative to a Hellhound as you can get three of these for roughly the same price

Renegade Arvus Lighter Squadron
Cheap flyer transport with Hover, can carry up to 12 models, very low AV however (but standard HP count). Can take up to three per FoC but each are treated as their own unit. Has basic IA: Aeronautica options, has various weapons mount options but all guns can only ever be fired as snapshots (so it's BS2 is irrelevant). Not terribly impressive on its own, but you can spam a whole lot of cheap units in cheap flyers, for less than 800pts you could get 9 scoring Hover flyers

Renegade Valkyrie Squadron
same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. without super capable infantry to warrant a transport like this, I'd imagine that the Arvus will be more popular

Heavy Support

Renegade Tank Squadron
same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. Includes Annihilator (TLLC turret) option. What can I say about these? They're Leman Russ tanks

Renegade Artillery Battery
Basilisk same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3.
Medusa available at discount just under that of a Rhino under the price in IA1, upgraded for same amount as others to BS3
Bassy is uninspiring as ever, but the super cheap Medusa is...quite interesting

Renegade Strike Battery
Griffon available at same discount as Medusa, can be upgraded for same amount as others to BS3
Wyvern same as codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. ( )
Both can be taken in squadrons of up to 5 (yes five)
holy balls these are cheap, forget upgrading the BS, take a slew of these things and simply bury any infantry unit on the board in hail of never-ending blasts

Renegade Hydra Battery
same as Codex but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3. eh, since they nerfed it into the ground, it's hard to see the value in these

Renegade Bombard Battery
More expensive than previously, has option to be upgraded to BS3, but is now S8 instead of S6.
not cheap, but certainly is going to make a lot of marine players poop themselves, of situational use but highly effective in many situations

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery
Same as DKOK heavy artillery batteries, but 20pts cheaper. Crew are BS2, no armor saves, variable Leadership. Have option to increase WS and BS to 3. Can upgrade to Medusa for same price as DKoK heavy arty. 1-3 per FoC.
ridiculously cheap T7 big guns, but if you do inflict any sort of casualties they're probably peacing out, and the crew have no saves.

Renegade Support Squad
WS2/BS2 heavy weapon squads, 3-6 heavy weapons teams. Very cheap, even if you upgrade them to WS/BS3 and 6+sv, they're still cheaper than codex heavy weapons squads.
only worth taking really if you don't upgrade them and keep them as super-cheap BS2 heavy weapons, once you upgrade them they're still kinda expensive for what they do even being cheaper than codex equivalents

Renegade Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery
1-3 rapiers, once again, hilariously cheap (less than a Lascannon for an IG infantry squad) but with no crew armor and variable Ld. Upgrading to WS3/BS3 is an option. no options for weapon swapping.
These again, are very cheap T7 heavy weapons, definitely a nice score as long as you realize they'll probably run before they're actually shot to death, upgrading to WS3/BS3 probably worth it

Renegade Field Artillery Battery
1-4 Heavy Mortars or Quad Launcher Thudd Guns. Once again, like the other artillery units, mind-blowingly cheap (less than a Rhino), but random Ld and no crew saves. Can upgrade to WS3/BS3
Oh yes, this is going to be a big abuseable thing of this list. 48 S5 AP5 pinning small blasts for under 400pts that don't need LoS? Don't bother upgrading WS/BS, just take lots of 'em for cheap.

Lords of War
A much more limited selection here than for most armies, dependent on the Devotion of the Demagogue. Not terribly impressive

Bloody Handed reaver: Lord of Skulls, Greater Brass Scorpion
Primaris-rogue Witch: any of the Daemon Lords (may not make up more than 25% of the armies total points however, so you need to be playing big games)
Mutant Overlord: Giant Chaos Spawn (1-3 in the Lord of War slot), Spined Chaos Beast (1-3 per LoW slot again)
Master of the Horde: none
Arch-Heretic Revolutionary: any Macharius tank.
Heretek Magus: Valdor Tank Hunter, Chaos Warhound, Chaos Reaver, Greater Breass Scorpion.

In addition, all, regardless of Devotion, have access to Malcador, Macharius, and Baneblade variants.

Renegade Superheavies

Malcador Heavy Tank as IA1, but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3, base a tiny bit cheaper than a CSM Land Raider Eh, it's an AV13 Leman Russ with twice the HP

Malcador Defender as IA1, but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3, a little more than the price of a CSM Land Raider and Rhino together. more "eh", Vindi with better side/rear armor and double the HP, lots of Heavy Bolters

Renegade Minotaur Artillery Tank as IA1, but 10pts cheaper and BS2, can be upgraded for same amount to BS3, costs about a marine more than a Loyalist Land Raider yet more "eh", it's a twin linked bassy with Massive blast with AV14 rear armor

Renegade Baneblade Superheavy Tank 10pts cheaper than original Baneblade cost, significantly cheaper than Apocalypse book cost, is BS2 but upgradable to BS3 for the same price as everything else here. only cool because it doesn't have the silly price increase of new loyalist Baneblade and has the old increased side armor options


Legacies of Ruin

These are upgrade options for any CSM army, able to take at 1 per full 1000pts of an army. They have varying prices depending on if its a tank or a walker sometimes, and superheavy tanks and walkers have their own prices as well. I'm not going to get into the details, but largely they cost 15-45pts and do relatively simple things, like give Preferred Enemy SM's and IWND (on the expensive end) or Fear and Icon of Excess Ld bonus (on the cheaper end).


Lords of the Abyss
This is where the major Daemon lords are covered and some updated printings that largely look like copy-paste jobs of daemon units from some earlier books (like Mamon from Siege of Vraks). I don't think there anything new there (though I didn't look *too* close), but if anyone has any questions on them I'll answer them.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 17:55:43


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Some perspective on the units from this book.

A friend and I pitted a CSM list against a Eldar Waveserpent spam list over the weekend, specifically because we wanted to see what the new armor really does for CSM. Our list included 2 Sicaran battle tanks, a Fire Raptor gunship, and 3 rapier weapons batteries with conversion beamers.

We destroyed 3 of the 4 Waveserpents by the end of the third round, and 75% of the Eldar army by the end of the 4th. The tanks and fire raptors were all still on the board at the end of the game. The MVPs were the Sicarans, the autocannons wrecked the Waveserpents very quickly. The Fireraptor was good, mostly because the Eldar were having a hard time shooting it.

Overall, it felt like a totally different army. There were a lot of high strength shots coming from these units, a lot more than you would normally see in a CSM list, and they had the power to take things down from distance. It was clear to us that certain psychic powers could have made these units all but unkillable. We brought a second list along with some dreadclaw proxies by never got around to testing the impact on assault for the new IA units.

The Eldar won based on tactical objectives, but it would have gone the other way had it been a killpoint mission. If we had brought more troops, it might have been different also, but we were really interested in seeing what CSM armor was capable of doing.

   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Rapier with hades autocannon x9 will give you 36 st8 shots a turn, each one on a 4w t7 3+ platform (inc crew) for 585pts right? Do they have the 1 turn can be tank hunters rule still? If so that would be crazy! 36 st8 tank hunting shots at bs4 on turn one? Oh dear oh dear...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cheers for the review btw!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hang on hades autocannon - 2 shots or 4? Can't remember if the forgefiend gets 4 shots per gun or 4 shots alltogether.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/29 10:55:34


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Vaktathi - thanks for that ,mostly matches my impressions. Love the renegades list, and I also have a decimator that I love, but really dont understand its costing. It went up 10 points in IA Apoc as well, for no discernible reason!

Unless I'm mistaken though, the plague hulk is a walker, and as such ignores Unwieldy. I really dont, then, get why you'd bother swapping the 2xS weapon out?

My sicaran is getting IW'd up as well...taking some time
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






I am really annoyed that the kept the random leadership. It is just such a horrible mechanic and the fluff justification is questionable. I really do not like the die choosing whether my models are cowardly slaves or diehard fanatics. I may have a theme for an army, and I want to be able to actually choose myself what my units are, so that they fit that theme (and model them accordingly!) Not to mention that in a larger infantry army tracking all the leadership scores will be an utter nightmare.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/29 11:48:50


   
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Melbourne

At a skim-read you reached the same conclusions I did with the review I've written at home - I even called the Dreadclaw over-engineered as well!

One minor disagreement I'd raise is that you're description for the Brass Scorpion is..."generous", IMO compared to the Imperial Knight the GBS' points cost is an absolute joke, though not as funny as the points costs on the Proteus and Achilles in general.

The Sicaran is likely to become a staple of my lists.

Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
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Confessor Of Sins






One thing I noticed is that the daemon engines have the label 'Chaos Space Marines'... it'd be weird if they weren't available to Daemons.

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The best State-Texas

Great Review!

I'm still waiting for my copy, so this has been immensely helpful.

4000+
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Aspirant Tech-Adept





UK

Looks good and interesting. Halfway through(maybe) building my Nurgle traitor guard army and looks like it'll be fun to play with this list (also intend to play it with the AM book from time to time).

Couple of things that I'm initially disappointed in though. It's a shame that it looks like heavy weapon squads don't fit into the infantry platoon and take up a HS slot. It also looks like there is no place for the three TL lascannon support platforms I bought.

Also really liked Plague Marines as an elite choice in the Nurgle Vraks book. Shame to see those go. Obviously allies mitigates this, but I'd now need to take a nurgle csm lord too... no biggie I suppose.

But, yeah. Generally looks good, I'll have to try avoid the temptation to buy 100 zombies though.

Looking forward to picking up the book.

Angels Amaranthine - growing slowly

P&M blog ; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/488077.page

Currently 200pts 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






I think you derped on the sentinals.

You CAN upgrade them, you just dont.
You give them guns who do not care for crappy BS, and enjoy the cheapness.
Most obviously, heavy flamers.


Heavy flamers at 20 pt. a piece on a 10/10/10/2 hull is a steal that most armies drool over. yes, even basic fire might hurt them, but that applies to infantry just as well. and these guy are priced lower than most infantry in the game that can carry heavy flamers.

A pack of 6 is just 120 points, cheap enough to simply march through the field.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Pretty much what I saw - blasts and templates mostly / totally ignore low BS, and 120 points for 6 hulls with HF is not bad in anyones estimates. Yes no scout sucks, but they make a fantastic guarding unit, or just to move up and screen
   
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Rapier with hades autocannon x9 will give you 36 st8 shots a turn, each one on a 4w t7 3+ platform (inc crew) for 585pts right? Do they have the 1 turn can be tank hunters rule still? If so that would be crazy! 36 st8 tank hunting shots at bs4 on turn one? Oh dear oh dear...
That price looks about right They do not have the option for turn-1 tank hunters however.


Hang on hades autocannon - 2 shots or 4? Can't remember if the forgefiend gets 4 shots per gun or 4 shots alltogether.
4 per gun.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Vaktathi - thanks for that ,mostly matches my impressions. Love the renegades list, and I also have a decimator that I love, but really dont understand its costing. It went up 10 points in IA Apoc as well, for no discernible reason!
Yeah, I mean, the model is awesome, but for some reason FW insists on making sure it's absurdly expensive


Unless I'm mistaken though, the plague hulk is a walker, and as such ignores Unwieldy. I really dont, then, get why you'd bother swapping the 2xS weapon out?
Correct, I'm not sure why you would bother either



 alanmckenzie wrote:

Couple of things that I'm initially disappointed in though. It's a shame that it looks like heavy weapon squads don't fit into the infantry platoon and take up a HS slot. It also looks like there is no place for the three TL lascannon support platforms I bought.
Yeah, that was an odd choice, particularly as the HS is so packed, and packed with far more durable options.

Also really liked Plague Marines as an elite choice in the Nurgle Vraks book. Shame to see those go. Obviously allies mitigates this, but I'd now need to take a nurgle csm lord too... no biggie I suppose.
Yeah, I noticed that too, I'm assuming they're just chalking it up to allies.


 BoomWolf wrote:
I think you derped on the sentinals.

You CAN upgrade them, you just dont.
You give them guns who do not care for crappy BS, and enjoy the cheapness.
Most obviously, heavy flamers.


Heavy flamers at 20 pt. a piece on a 10/10/10/2 hull is a steal that most armies drool over. yes, even basic fire might hurt them, but that applies to infantry just as well. and these guy are priced lower than most infantry in the game that can carry heavy flamers.
If you really go ham on large numbers of them, that might be pretty cool, I've just never seen slow light AV vehicles do much all that spectacular in the era of HP's. Statistically, even 6 would be about easy to kill (discounting Explodes results entirely) as a single Carnifex with bolters/multilasers/autocannons/etc, though that would be a lot of flamer templates That may just be my own bias however.

 Baragash wrote:
At a skim-read you reached the same conclusions I did with the review I've written at home - I even called the Dreadclaw over-engineered as well!
Good call


One minor disagreement I'd raise is that you're description for the Brass Scorpion is..."generous", IMO compared to the Imperial Knight the GBS' points cost is an absolute joke, though not as funny as the points costs on the Proteus and Achilles in general.
It's a lot more expensive for sure, nearly twice the price, but while lacking D-strength close combat attacks, it gets a lot of attacks in general, and has absurdly fearsome close range firepower, most of which ignores cover, and while its invul isn't quite as good, it covers all directions, plus the armor is better.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/29 18:06:18


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






True, they are easy to kill.
But they are 20 pts. a piece.

The question is not "is it durable" and "is it leathal", the question is "is it durable compared to the cost" and "is it lethal compared for the cost"

And at mere 20 point, I'd say they can take a fair bit of punishment compared to cost, and can deliver a fair bit.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

So, it's pretty much safe to say that 2 Sicarans are Auto-takes?

I really like that the Rapier weapons platform has some of those Daemon Engine weapons

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 BoomWolf wrote:


Heavy flamers at 20 pt. a piece on a 10/10/10/2 hull is a steal that most armies drool over. yes, even basic fire might hurt them, but that applies to infantry just as well. and these guy are priced lower than most infantry in the game that can carry heavy flamers.

A pack of 6 is just 120 points, cheap enough to simply march through the field.


Just think about it this way. You pay 120 pts to erase anything that's troops and even some light vehicles (venoms, raiders) that drop nearby. Alpha-strike with DS or drop-pods is not rare. And even if you're facing a gunline, they're cheap enough to just march forward to provide cover and distraction. Worthy choice imo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 05:45:21


 
   
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 Sasori wrote:
So, it's pretty much safe to say that 2 Sicarans are Auto-takes?

I really like that the Rapier weapons platform has some of those Daemon Engine weapons
I'd expect to see Sicarans be very high profile in competitive environments where FW isn't an issue, if people can stomach the cost of the model

The Rapier options are very interesting, I'll be very interested indeed to see some with Hades Autocannons, those'll just look cool, on top of being ace HP strippers.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
So, it's pretty much safe to say that 2 Sicarans are Auto-takes?

I really like that the Rapier weapons platform has some of those Daemon Engine weapons
I'd expect to see Sicarans be very high profile in competitive environments where FW isn't an issue, if people can stomach the cost of the model

The Rapier options are very interesting, I'll be very interested indeed to see some with Hades Autocannons, those'll just look cool, on top of being ace HP strippers.


Doubling as some pretty potent Anti-infantry as well. Do you think the Hades is the best Rapier weapon?

Seems like the Fast attack and Heavy support slot got real crowded!

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If someone can send me the rules for the Sicaran, I would appreciate that

Seems like this book is a breath of fresh air, to where I've heard stories about unpacking their armies to use the new stuff, which is apparently a boon for this army. I had essentially given up on the army until I've heard the stories. I'll be proxying stuff for sure once I have some rules and appropriate models.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Inside Yvraine

The Sicaran is so good that I'm afraid to take it in my lists.

In my meta, forgeworld is cautiously allowed because most of the group doesn't know enough about it to make a judgment on its power one way or the other.

Even during our tournaments, I can just hear the disbelief in their voices when I read out its loadout.

Same with the Achilles and the Fire Raptor, which is sad because I think you can build a decent list around 20 beserkers+lord in an Achilles.
   
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You mean Spartan, the Achilles only holds 6

The sicaran is still an AV13 front, AV12 side 3 HP hull, that dies like any other. Its main defence being insane speed.
   
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 Sasori wrote:


Doubling as some pretty potent Anti-infantry as well. Do you think the Hades is the best Rapier weapon?
It's probably the best "all comers" weapon, I think in terms of raw cost effectiveness for AT work the basic Rapier is still pretty solid (plus can potentially explode things). I think the Ectoplasma is by far the worst, the conversion beamer option being interesting but situational (depends heavily on enemy targets sitting at 24-48" away).


Seems like the Fast attack and Heavy support slot got real crowded!
Finally


 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Sicaran is so good that I'm afraid to take it in my lists.

In my meta, forgeworld is cautiously allowed because most of the group doesn't know enough about it to make a judgment on its power one way or the other.
Eh, if they were available to IG armies, I might agree that it might be overboard. For CSM armies, I think it'll just end up leveling the playing field against stuff they otherwise don't really have much answer to, namely flyer heavy opponents and Wave Serpent spam. I would feel bad bringing three to a super casual game, but I wouldn't feel bad at all bringing one or two in a league or tournament or competitive pickup meta. I'd feel a whole lot worse bringing a Knight or a couple of Heldrakes. I'd worry about them a lot more in loyalist SM armies.


Same with the Achilles and the Fire Raptor, which is sad because I think you can build a decent list around 20 beserkers+lord in an Achilles.
The Spartan (I'm assuming that's the one you meant), honestly is just what a CSM LR really should be, it's also hugely expensive, so if they explode it with a lucky lascannon shot, it's going to hurt, a lot. With 20 barebones berzerkers, naked lord, and un-upgraded Spartan, you're talking exactly half a 1500pt army before any upgrades (like armored ceramite, invul+power weapons for lord, champion powerfist, etc) or 2nd compulsory Troops unit. That's a lot of resources sunk into that, nobody should have too much of a problem facing that. Scary to think about, but easily engaged.

The Fire Raptor is potent, but with the Heldrake remaining notably cheaper with similar capabilities and ignoring cover, I think that will remain the favorite, even post-FAQ.

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So for 585pts CSM can bring 9 hades auto cannons in their HS slot.
For 360pts Renegades can bring 12 thudd guns (correct me if im wrong im assuming they are 30pts a piece).
So that will give 36 bs4 st8 and 48 bs2 st5 ap5 small blasts, 60 t7 3+ and 24 (assuming 2 renegade crew) t7 no save wounds.

...

For 945pts.

...

Does anyone think that sounds a little bit broken?

...

I mean in a 2k list you could really take the mick, im going to assume points here based on what I've read:

CSM
Sorc (60)

10 cultists (50)

10 cultists (50)

3 x 3 hades autocannon rapiers (585)

Renegades
'Command squad' (40)

Enforcer (35)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

40 mutants (120)

3 spawn (55)

3 spawn (55)

3 spawn (55)

4 x 3 quad thudd launchers (360)

Leaving you at 1915pts so you can afford to get tzeentch bonus for the infantry squad so they can move and snapfire their autocannons at bs2 + overwatch at bs2 + fire at fliers at bs2.
Combat drugs for the enforcer. Cov of khorne for the demagogue to go with mutants, cov of slaanesh for champ of mutants. Sorc goes with 1 renegade infantry unit, which has command vox, thus giving all within 12" ld10. And maybe 30 or so krak 'nades.
Thats assuming, 4 champs, 3 covs of tzeentch, 1 of khorne, 1 of slaanesh, combat drugs and command vox come to 85pts or under, if not then get rid of mutants or even a unit of spawn where appropriate.

With the firepower the artillery is putting down + the fast moving spawn + mutants. The 3 renegade infantry and 2 cultist squads shouldn't be too challenged when going for objectives. The renegades won't mind advancing as their autocannons will hit on a 5+ moving but only 4+ standing still.

The hades auto cannons if they can't use the tank hunting rule other hades have are still causing 12 hps against av12 on average a turn. Then theres the 12 plasma and 6 autocannons to hunt anything lower than av13. And spawn will be able to get at rear armour.
   
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What I'm itching to try out is this:

Be'Lakor
Spartan, Ceramite, 20 Demonettes, Slaanesh Herald
Land Raider, 10 CSM, Melter
Land Raider, 10 CSM, Melter
Sicaran (or Plague Hulk)

Planning a game in the next week.

   
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Poly Ranger wrote:
So for 585pts CSM can bring 9 hades auto cannons in their HS slot.
For 360pts Renegades can bring 12 thudd guns (correct me if im wrong im assuming they are 30pts a piece).
So that will give 36 bs4 st8 and 48 bs2 st5 ap5 small blasts, 60 t7 3+ and 24 (assuming 2 renegade crew) t7 no save wounds.

...

For 945pts.

...

Does anyone think that sounds a little bit broken?

...

I mean in a 2k list you could really take the mick, im going to assume points here based on what I've read:

CSM
Sorc (60)

10 cultists (50)

10 cultists (50)

3 x 3 hades autocannon rapiers (585)

Renegades
'Command squad' (40)

Enforcer (35)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

20 renegades at bs3 with 4 plasma and 2 autocannons (150)

40 mutants (120)

3 spawn (55)

3 spawn (55)

3 spawn (55)

4 x 3 quad thudd launchers (360)

Leaving you at 1915pts so you can afford to get tzeentch bonus for the infantry squad so they can move and snapfire their autocannons at bs2 + overwatch at bs2 + fire at fliers at bs2.
Combat drugs for the enforcer. Cov of khorne for the demagogue to go with mutants, cov of slaanesh for champ of mutants. Sorc goes with 1 renegade infantry unit, which has command vox, thus giving all within 12" ld10. And maybe 30 or so krak 'nades.
Thats assuming, 4 champs, 3 covs of tzeentch, 1 of khorne, 1 of slaanesh, combat drugs and command vox come to 85pts or under, if not then get rid of mutants or even a unit of spawn where appropriate.

With the firepower the artillery is putting down + the fast moving spawn + mutants. The 3 renegade infantry and 2 cultist squads shouldn't be too challenged when going for objectives. The renegades won't mind advancing as their autocannons will hit on a 5+ moving but only 4+ standing still.

The hades auto cannons if they can't use the tank hunting rule other hades have are still causing 12 hps against av12 on average a turn. Then theres the 12 plasma and 6 autocannons to hunt anything lower than av13. And spawn will be able to get at rear armour.
It's certainly nasty, there's a lot of armies that would get pasted very quickly, probably not something I'd want to see in a casual/fun game. That said, I wouldn't want to be facing multiple AV14 threats, a full Knight list should still be able to close and engage successfully, and there's going to be a lot of issues fitting all that into a deployment zone satisfactorily, and most of those infantry will still have Ld issues. But yeah, not a spectacularly fun list. (need to fix Enforcer cost in original post)

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Landraiders shouldn't be *too* much of a worry, as 24 average st8 hits will be downing one a turn and if they have taken mulitple landraiders, then thats not many points left over to deal with the rest of your stuff.
Multiple Knights would be more of a worry, as with a 4++ then your looking at only 4hp caused in a turn from the hades. One wouldn't be too much of a concern.
Leman russes on the other hand and vengence weapon batteries are cheap enough AV14 to cause a real pain.

Of course this is all based on what I've read, so isn't 100% accurate.
   
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I can't imagine taking more than one sicaran, the required HQ choice is pretty limiting. Taking two sicarans pretty much requires you to build demon summoning into your list or take one of the other lackluster technomancers.

You have to pay close attention when building renegades lists as I am finding out. For example, the above list by Poly Ranger looks illegal without taking the tzeentch covenant to unlock 3 spawn. Besides that it has no morale upgrades (would have to sacrifice some special weapons to get them) so the squads can very easily fall apart. Also having your autocannons on platforms that cant move and shoot is a detriment oft overlooked.

The sicaran is really good but I don't think people should be too afraid of it. Just be a sport, explain what it does before the game starts and make sure they know it specifically ignores jink, not all cover saves. Furthermore its hard to spam. Most will have only one if any, more requires a very specific or mediocre HQ choice. Since they're limited to primary and allied detachments only you can't just flood the board with them. Looks like 3 max, which is still a lot, but not like its 6.
   
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JubbJubbz wrote:
I can't imagine taking more than one sicaran, the required HQ choice is pretty limiting. Taking two sicarans pretty much requires you to build demon summoning into your list or take one of the other lackluster technomancers.
No all you have to do is take a sorcerer with at least 1 malefic power. That hardly forces you to build a daemon summoning list and is really easy to do.

You have to pay close attention when building renegades lists as I am finding out. For example, the above list by Poly Ranger looks illegal without taking the tzeentch covenant to unlock 3 spawn. Besides that it has no morale upgrades (would have to sacrifice some special weapons to get them) so the squads can very easily fall apart. Also having your autocannons on platforms that cant move and shoot is a detriment oft overlooked.
After the list Poly says the Arch-demagogue has Tze Covenant. Also moved heavy weapons can still snap fire (and with Tze Covenant its be BS2)

The sicaran is really good but I don't think people should be too afraid of it. Just be a sport, explain what it does before the game starts and make sure they know it specifically ignores jink, not all cover saves. Furthermore its hard to spam. Most will have only one if any, more requires a very specific or mediocre HQ choice. Since they're limited to primary and allied detachments only you can't just flood the board with them. Looks like 3 max, which is still a lot, but not like its 6.

Sorcerers are good, especially if you give them the Balestar so can take divination powers and reroll psy tests.
   
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Yes, the Sicaran is good. I use it almost all the time in my Red Scorpions army. But, guess which model in my army is among the first to die in almost every game?

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 CrownAxe wrote:
JubbJubbz wrote:
I can't imagine taking more than one sicaran, the required HQ choice is pretty limiting. Taking two sicarans pretty much requires you to build demon summoning into your list or take one of the other lackluster technomancers.
No all you have to do is take a sorcerer with at least 1 malefic power. That hardly forces you to build a daemon summoning list and is really easy to do.

Well, to me, being required to take 1 specific HQ out of a dozen with a specific choice of a power from one psychic discipline out of 10 or so disciplines is very restrictive. And if you are taking malefic without planning around summoning daemons you won't be able to make good use of them. I wasn't talking building a daemon factory.

You have to pay close attention when building renegades lists as I am finding out. For example, the above list by Poly Ranger looks illegal without taking the tzeentch covenant to unlock 3 spawn. Besides that it has no morale upgrades (would have to sacrifice some special weapons to get them) so the squads can very easily fall apart. Also having your autocannons on platforms that cant move and shoot is a detriment oft overlooked.
After the list Poly says the Arch-demagogue has Tze Covenant. Also moved heavy weapons can still snap fire (and with Tze Covenant its be BS2)

I read it as the Cov of T might be something one would consider. I just meant to clarify that it wasn't optional with the given list. Although Heavy weapons can snapfire after moving, that is pretty much a waste of a turn of shooting as it cuts your damage to one quarter or third of what it would normally be. It would be sweet if they could do it at BS2 but they can't. CSM rapiers (or any other CSM models) can't take the covenants nor can the renegade artillery batteries even if their blast weapons could snap fire which they cant. You could put your Arch-Demagogue with covenant in one of the squads but that sounds of questionable merit.
Renegade support squads look like the only heavy support that can take a covenant. They may be worth it with Cov of T, skip the BS3 and they can move about freely shooting heavy weps at BS2, even at fliers!

The sicaran is really good but I don't think people should be too afraid of it. Just be a sport, explain what it does before the game starts and make sure they know it specifically ignores jink, not all cover saves. Furthermore its hard to spam. Most will have only one if any, more requires a very specific or mediocre HQ choice. Since they're limited to primary and allied detachments only you can't just flood the board with them. Looks like 3 max, which is still a lot, but not like its 6.

Sorcerers are good, especially if you give them the Balestar so can take divination powers and reroll psy tests.

Sorcerers are very good. Paying extra points to take Div and then having to spend one of your powers elsewhere (malefic for technomancer) while simultaneously giving up psychic focus is less good. You could go full malefic but then you're really committing the sorc to most likely being a summoner. I'm not saying a sorc plus 2 or 3 sicarans is bad, its just that to me, you don't have a lot of freedom doing it. Choosing to take a 2nd Sicaran necessitates a specific HQ choice. Not only that but necessitates a specific role for that HQ choice.
   
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McKenzie, TN

JubbJubbz wrote:
Well, to me, being required to take 1 specific HQ out of a dozen with a specific choice of a power from one psychic discipline out of 10 or so disciplines is very restrictive. And if you are taking malefic without planning around summoning daemons you won't be able to make good use of them. I wasn't talking building a daemon factory.

JubbJubbz wrote:
Sorcerers are very good. Paying extra points to take Div and then having to spend one of your powers elsewhere (malefic for technomancer) while simultaneously giving up psychic focus is less good. You could go full malefic but then you're really committing the sorc to most likely being a summoner. I'm not saying a sorc plus 2 or 3 sicarans is bad, its just that to me, you don't have a lot of freedom doing it. Choosing to take a 2nd Sicaran necessitates a specific HQ choice. Not only that but necessitates a specific role for that HQ choice.

Sicarans are really good tanks but I agree that it is not necessarily an auto take with all the other good options give to CSM in IA13, a single sicaran and 2 units of rapiers could be just as good or better in the right army. Keep in mind that a sicaran without tank hunter will struggle against AV13+ and MC spam lists. Especially if you are playing single CAD and thus have used up all your HS slots.

On a side note having to take a single malefic on CSM sorcerers is a bit less painful if you were taking a mark anyways as you already lost psychic focus.

I am also not as impressed by divination now that prescience is WC2 and the best damage dealers available to CSM are now almost universally don't benefit from reroll to hit (sicaran, rapier, hellblade, baleturkey, fire raptor, etc.) Telepathy tends to be much more useful in most cases as the primaris is a great MC hunter and invisibility can win games and shrouded is excellent on vehicles.

Not that I think a single roll on malefic is necessarily a poor choice. You can try fro possession and if you don't get it summoning is an excellent utility power.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I read it as the Cov of T might be something one would consider. I just meant to clarify that it wasn't optional with the given list. Although Heavy weapons can snapfire after moving, that is pretty much a waste of a turn of shooting as it cuts your damage to one quarter or third of what it would normally be. It would be sweet if they could do it at BS2 but they can't. CSM rapiers (or any other CSM models) can't take the covenants nor can the renegade artillery batteries even if their blast weapons could snap fire which they cant. You could put your Arch-Demagogue with covenant in one of the squads but that sounds of questionable merit.
Renegade support squads look like the only heavy support that can take a covenant. They may be worth it with Cov of T, skip the BS3 and they can move about freely shooting heavy weps at BS2, even at fliers!

You can attach a covenant IC to a unit to gain it's benefit. Thus BS2 snap fire rapiers are some of the best AA in the list. The Arch-Demagogue is an IC. So yes that is awesome.


@Poly Ranger
That seems like a pretty strong list but keep in mind you are 36" range on those hades autocannons. Thus against a addy lance you will deal out ~2 HP a turn (to the 4++ knights, and less than 1 HP a turn to the warlord). Against serpents you will be out ranged and only get to fire if they let you. Against 2-3 wraithknights you will struggle to kill even one before it makes it into combat. There are a number of popular tournament lists that spamming the same type of weapon repeatedly will struggle against. I do think with some tweaking and experimenting though that general list design could be made to have answers to all of these. Though honestly being dual CAD there are lots of crazy lists that can be made.
   
 
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