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Thought this might interest some of you, just got a newsletter from KG with the following:

Slow and Steady
Greetings fellow Kingmakers. It has been way too long since my last update and for that I apologize. I wont bore you with the details but suffice it to say its been a long few months.
I have kept my nose to the grind stone and remained determined to bring you great miniatures for a great price.

Miniatures
Since the Kickstarter I have been working on getting the miniatures made on my own. Unfortunately Troll Forge is now swamped and can not take on any more work at this time. So I am now working to get this
first run of miniatures made in metal. This will keep the costs low for you and ensure that I can get them miniatures made quickly. The first test set of Amarant masters were made by Vision Proto and will will be
going to the mold making process soon. To keep you up to date on the progress, I will send newsletters during the whole miniature making process.

Once this process is complete I will move forward with having all my masters made this way. The first full set will the be the Kelk and then I will have the rest of the Amarant finished. The Kelk are ready for preorder now
and I expect to have the Amarant available for Preorder by December.

I am aiming to have the miniatures done and ready to be shipped out to customers by March. Depending on how many Preorders we get we may have to start sending the orders out in batches.
I will keep you posed on the shipping timeline.

Preorder Details:

I am opening up the Kingmaker Store for preorders of the full Kelk army starting today. As Kickstarter Backers and followers from the early days I am giving you access to a reduced price for the Miniatures available for preorder.
This preorder sale will last for two weeks and then I will start running advertisements. When the advertisements go live on November 17th that preorder sale price will end so don't wait.

The Kingmaker Miniatures can be preordered here: http://www.kingmakergames.com/miniatures-store/

Theres also an army box for the Kelk:

The Army Box is still being designed but it will be ready before the end of the year. Current estimate for size is 11.5 x 8 x 2 inches. I will have an update on the box design as soon as dimensions and art layout are finalized.

The Kelk Army Box contains: (It retails for $100, but is on sale for $80 ATM.)

1 Kelk War Lord

1 Kurgan with Auto Cannon

10 Kelk Hunters

25 Kelk Clansmen

3 Vorka Beasts

So its at least interesting to see this is still moving along, kind of surprised they haven't just launched a new KS, maybe their taking the slow route this time and trying to build a strong fanbase first rather than the previous shock and awe tactics.
Which considering how the last one went is a good idea, so theres a whole bunch of pictures and stuff on their site I haven't linked I suggest you all check it out, theres a decent selection of Kelk available more than enough to start building yourselfs
a new (small) army.

Have at it guys and gals.

How much of disaster was the kickstarter ?

$80 for 40 models is not terrible.

I just have no use for the Kelk. I remember the human faction having some promise.

It wasn't a terrible disaster per-say, it was just more a an "attitude" problem from the creators and a few other little mishaps that caused issues, overall the biggest problem was these guys basically appeared out of nowhere
asking for lot of money, without a dedicated fanbase or a proven track-record. Its a sort of Shock and Awe approach that certain companies attempt every now and then with miniature KS, but unless you can prove
the quality and reliability of your work extremely fast, or you have something truly ground breaking said KS rarely fund, people just don't trust them with their money, which is understandable.

I've seen worst KS in the grand scheme of things.

Weren't these guys the ones that couldn't put a ruler next to the model to give accurate sizes, and we're way off on their own estimates, like 10mm.

Prices seem more than reasonable. Too bad I'm not interested in the Kelk. Highlord Tamburlaine might be interested though. I know he can't pass up an opportunity to highlord it up.

If they can actually release these and release a good quality product, I think I'll be more inclined to make a purchase when they get to those lovely, generic Spess Mehreens.

3 vorka beasts for $10....hello DE khymerae!

I was seriously tempted by this, but it seems too good to be true. Five metal trooper miniatures for $10.00? Is that actually doable these days?

I'd like to see them follow through with this, as I really like the Kelk designs shown.

A garage operation could probably do it. I knew a guy with a spin cast setup in his garage who could make minis for about $1 each in metal.

I'd be wary of it.

They made a bad impression on their KS and seemed to know nothing about the hobby.

I'll never forget the picture they put up after repeated requests for them to put a ruler next to a miniature to show scale....

Yeah that ruler lying on the desk was funny, they look interesting but the site has only pictures of the renders, they should at least have some cast to show.

Dug up the old thread and had to find the picture

These were the guys who wanted to make a video game, but decided to settle for a mini game

Still wondering if these are made in the USA like they said they would be, and actual sizes of the model as the ruler situation never got adequately resolved.

The renders sure are nice. Looks like these guys could work well for XCOM Mutons. Especially if they're unintentionally oversized.

I'll wait until casts are available but I'm intrigued. Not going to preorder however as I have a bad, Defiance Games 2.0 feeling about this however...

Whatever happened to defiance anyway

Sining wrote:
Whatever happened to defiance anyway

They don't exist anymore and they didn't fill their KS obligations.

There were accusations of being completely incompetent,and or taking the money and running. It was Tony's second failed minature company.

 Vermonter wrote:
I was seriously tempted by this, but it seems too good to be true. Five metal trooper miniatures for $10.00? Is that actually doable these days?

I'd like to see them follow through with this, as I really like the Kelk designs shown.

I like the Kelk designs too, although we don't have any interest in Sci-fi minis! Refreshing and original. To answer your question, 10.00$ for 5 metal troopers...? Perhaps Warprime has discovered something we haven't but for us... No. As if no, it's not doable. Allow me to explain.

 agnosto wrote:
A garage operation could probably do it. I knew a guy with a spin cast setup in his garage who could make minis for about $1 each in metal.

The $1 per mini that agnosto mentioned above is in the margin, but yes, it can be. You need huge amounts of metal to get the proper discount, you must not calculate labor hours -since you must do that without pay- and you must hope that all casts are perfect. If not, then you need to melt that down and use it again, but that augments the final cost due to additional labor and expenses. (OK, if you work for free you can take away the labor cost...)
Here comes the fun part. Let's assume that you do manage to have perfect casts on every run you make. That takes luck and great experience, which the company must have (let's say for discussion's sake that Warprime has that experience and does it in house so no 3rd party fees get involved).

I don't know about the taxes in the USA, but in Greece we have a 23% tax. Meaning that from the 10.00$ sold, we pay back 2.30$. (We also pay Income taxes at the end of each year according to the profits we show from our bussiness and which would apply to the sale we are discussing above, but -again for discussion's sake- let's put that aside).
The breakdown so far is
-5.00$ cost of materials
-free labor hours in casting
-2.30$ taxes

From the 10.00$, we are down to 2.70$.
Then you have to pay for envelope/box/ducktape/paper/ink for the printer/paper/blisters/sponge/foam pellets etc to package the items.
On top of that you have to pay for the plastic bases (since these are not manufactured in-house but according to Warprime they are included with the minis).
Again, I don't know about the USA, but let's say $1.00? Minimum...
We are down to 1.70$ profit.

Then someone must drive it to the Post Office and get paid for their time.
Again, let's pretend he works for free so the time he spends packaging + waiting at the Post Office are free of charge. He also walks to the Post Office (since gas costs too).

I'm also not sure what the payment methods are but if you're using PayPal/CCards then you can wipe off an additional 1,7-3,4%. (Yes, I know it sounds little. It adds up however.)

So, then come site maintenance costs, electricity bills, banner ads etc... (more money pouring out of the pockets).
Finally, if you don't overcharge in Shipping (and from what I quickly saw in the website WarPrime has they are fairly reasonable), then those are the expenses and the 10.00$ is the price for the 5 minis...

I wish Warprime success, as I had said in their earlier thread -and that's the reason I'm responding to this one too-, I'm not offended if they say that the manufacturers out there are highly overcharging.
If they think the Industry is making that huge of a profit and they have found a way to be more competitive, they are more than welcome to do so. :-)

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This image is why I'd like to see something actually come out of Warprime. I'll take these over Squigs or Mawbeasts any day.

 Rolt wrote:
Unfortunately Troll Forge is now swamped and can not take on any more work at this time. So I am now working to get this first run of miniatures made in metal. This will keep the costs low for you and ensure that I can get them miniatures made quickly. The first test set of Amarant masters were made by Vision Proto and will will be going to the mold making process soon.

It looks like they won't be casting it themselves unless they invested in a spin caster, since originally they were planning to outsource production to Troll Forge. If they are using Vision Proto for rapid prototyping, they could be using Iron Wind Metals since they like to work with only Vision Proto for their RPs. They could have gotten a spin caster but since initially they were worried about costs early on, I wouldn't think they would. The pre-order prices would cover the costs from Iron Wind provided it was more than 500 units. They wouldn't make a lot profit (with sale prices), but they said prices will go up when they open Pre-Orders to full public when they start advertising. They could in theory make up the difference fairly well.

I wish they opened up Amarant or Humans though, I don't really have a use for Kelk but the others I could at least use.

 Vermonter wrote:
I was seriously tempted by this, but it seems too good to be true. Five metal trooper miniatures for $10.00? Is that actually doable these days?

For an initial run yes. They aren't going to be rich over it but as a start-up it does let him build buzz, get an intial customer base and prove the quality without it costing too much.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
I like the Kelk designs too, although we don't have any interest in Sci-fi minis! Refreshing and original. To answer your question, 10.00$ for 5 metal troopers...? Perhaps Warprime has discovered something we haven't but for us... No. As if no, it's not doable. Allow me to explain.

The $1 per mini that agnosto mentioned above is in the margin, but yes, it can be. ...I don't know about the taxes in the USA, but in Greece we have a 23% tax. Meaning that from the 10.00$ sold, we pay back 2.30$

Except it isn't $1 per mini it is $2 per mini. In the US the company usually doesn't have to pay a tax (they get taxed) but that is usually passed on to the customer in the form of sales tax. There are different laws depending on the state in the US but providing they don't have a 'physical presence in that state', they don't require a retailer to pay taxes. I live in Oregon, which has no sales tax law, so I don't have to pay taxes anyways. If they sold to users in Washington (based in Seattle if I remember) they would have to pay tax. Depending on their online shopping cart it would determine when and where it needed tax. Although since they don't have presences in other states, the easiest thing is probably eat the taxes for stuff sold in Washington. Depending on the city in Washington the sales tax is anywhere from 9.5-14%. The business itself does have to pay tax but providing it was setup as a small business, isn't a LLC or corporation, his taxes will probably be filed on his own personal taxes and if done properly he'll get most of it back.

I love those beasts, and really want to pick them up.

But with the prices so low and the models not yet completed, I'm very torn as to spend the money for these.

@Dark Severance I believe agnosto was referring to the actual manufacturing cost of each mini being $1, while Warprime has a $2 retail price. If agnosto was referring to a profitable number, then that's really something that we have to look into, the only way we know you can drop that low is via plastic and a "garage operation" doesn't do plastic. Of any type.
Anyway, good luck to them :-)

I remember the Warprime kickstarter because at one point i was actually trying to help them out and was having a lot of contact with them, but after a few days it was clear that this was just a cash-grab operation by Eric (the guy that came up with it) and so i jumped ship. As far as i remember the story went something like this:

Eric works in the video game industry as an artist and animator. He comes up with a "third person action shooter strategy game", which he then turns into a p&p rpg. About two years ago he gets back into 40k and realizes its super expensive. He then tries to make a turn based video game, but getting it funded is impossible. Seeing how kickstarters have been making a ton of money he puts 2 and 2 together and thinks he is going to save his investment with a cunning plan. With no experience in the miniature wargaming industry his "innovative" idea is to compete with GW by selling cheaper models and providing rules online for free, because he feels nobody is doing that yet and that is why 40k is so expensive.

That was the premise, everything after that was just a mess.

The game was presented on dakka, with the first post already trashing other manufacturers. The miniatures looked bland and like a rip-off of 40k, to the point that they had to change the soldiers on their cover from blue to white because of how obvious it was. All of their 3D models still had to be re-scaled during the kickstarter, which might have been because they were just re-using the 3D models from their original video game idea. For a while it was not sure who was going to manufacture them or what material was going to be used, and the funding goal seemed far too low to be realistic. When asked what makes Warprime special they said: free rules, not having full color boxes, and "nobody questions why there are dozens of different car manufacturers". When asked to put a miniature next to a ruler for scale they posted this:


I am sure there was more stuff going on, but i don't remember. You can find the original thread and read for yourself here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/599035.page. The rules for the game btw are essentially the "aegis" rules that came from a "fixing 40k" thread on dakka a few months prior to the KS, which you can find here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592293.page

I think it is important that people know the track record of this company before they give them money, even more so when they are following the video game model of pre-order when they haven't even delivered a single product yet. Personally i think their lizard beasts look cool, but right now i have no confidence in this company until proven wrong.

PS: I was looking at their website and saw this; what happened to the "we are saving money by not printing colored boxes" strategy?

Great summary of why nobody should be giving this guy any money!

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
@Dark Severance I believe agnosto was referring to the actual manufacturing cost of each mini being $1, while Warprime has a $2 retail price. If agnosto was referring to a profitable number, then that's really something that we have to look into, the only way we know you can drop that low is via plastic and a "garage operation" doesn't do plastic. Of any type.
Anyway, good luck to them :-)

Yes, I was referring to a personal acquaintance who is/was able to produce $1 miniatures with existing machinery from existing molds all of which he had from a business he ran years prior. These miniatures were metal and of decent quality. I'm assuming that the electricity needed to run the machinery and the material ran about .50cents per model (maybe less) and so he was making a tidy per-model profit.

I believe a US-based model manufacturer once said that a mold for metal spin-casting runs a few hundred dollars for the vulcanized rubber molds (rough guess based on my faulty memory so I could be wrong here). So $2 could be doable if they're doing it themselves. I'm not sure if it would fly if they are having someone else do it.

We are in November and the models are suppossed to be available for pre-order in December with nothing but digital renders, from a company with a failed video game and failed miniatures game kickstarter under their belt.

They are getting production molds made before painted prototypes.