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 Ahtman wrote:

Spoiler:

Nuthin' but white men 'tilt he end of time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Spoiler:

Nuthin' but white men 'tilt he end of time.

Well that isn't nearly as funny, so it loses points, and those are almost all side characters as well. For me it isn't that they are white so much as it is that that description (middle aged, male, white, brown hair, stubbly beard) is a common trend and frankly boring for as much as it pops up.

Showing a few examples doesn't prove the non-existence of an already proven trend.

 Ahtman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Spoiler:

Nuthin' but white men 'tilt he end of time.

Well that isn't nearly as funny, so it loses points, and those are almost all side characters as well. For me it isn't that they are white so much as it is that that description (middle aged, male, white, brown hair, stubbly beard) is a common trend and frankly boring for as much as it pops up.

Not only are they side characters, but most of them come from games where the main character is a middle aged, male, white brown hair, stubbly beard sort of fellow

Middle-aged is just the perfect age. Youngsters strife to be the badass action hero, middle-aged can easily identify with a character of the same age. And, as usual, male and white refers to the largest audience and dark hair is more likely identified with badass-ness than blond hair.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Middle-aged is just the perfect age. Youngsters strife to be the badass action hero, middle-aged can easily identify with a character of the same age. And, as usual, male and white refers to the largest audience and dark hair is more likely identified with badass-ness than blond hair.

People can obfuscate with the silly myth that only white boys play video games, but a myth is a myth, and its been pointed out countless times that its a myth, along with the point that if young white boys are unwilling to play a game about a non-middle-aged white male with brown hair, we have another serious problem. \

EDIT: To help illustrate how ludicrous this gets, League of Legends has 121 Champions. A little over half of them are men. Only 1 is black, and Lucian was the 110th (somewhere around there) Champion released by Riot. Even some of the Asian characters look more white than Asian (Karma before her rework, Master Yi, Irelia). 121 characters. 1 black man.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I keep hearing that Sweden has lots of crazy identity politics-related laws. Does anyone have an examples, or a list?

One of my favorite examples is their parental leave "equality incentive." Sweden came up with paternity leave in the 1970s, but women still continue to take about 76% more of the offered time than men do. So the Swedish government said, "Look, if you use your parental leave time equally, we'll give you a cash money bonus."

I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.

 LordofHats wrote:

People can obfuscate with the silly myth that only white boys play video games, but a myth is a myth, and its been pointed out countless times that its a myth, along with the point that if young white boys are unwilling to play a game about a non-middle-aged white male with brown hair, we have another serious problem.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I remember hearing something a month or two ago about how all gamers are introverted white men who fear women. That's why all games are made to cater to them. I think I read it from one of the major game websites, probably Kotaku, so I'm pretty sure it is legit.

I think you are confusing them saying that introverted white men who fear women are the biggest group that complain when the idea of change is broached with them saying that all people who complain are introverted white males scared of women. It doesn't mean that everyone who plays games fits that description, nor are all the introverted white males complaining either, it is just that of those that do complain they make up the largest chunk.

And again, even if it were true that all gamers were introverted white men afraid of change, seriously, wtf? Why the hell would we want a multi-billion dollar industry catering to that? That's depressing.

Maybe you should all read what the link says before posting. The Swedish government has nothing to do with this. And there is no new system being implemented.

It is the association of Swedish game developers and publishers who is funding a preliminary study that is going to look at what the conditions and possibilities for a marking that deals with issues of gender roles, norms and diversity in games. It will also look if there is a demand for this, and if it is, is the demand for something like a process marking like ISO or a consumer oriented marking.

Here is the press release:
http://www.dataspelsbranschen.se/nyheter/2014/11/13/foerstudie-kring-normkritisk-maerkning.aspx

Seaward wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I keep hearing that Sweden has lots of crazy identity politics-related laws. Does anyone have an examples, or a list?

One of my favorite examples is their parental leave "equality incentive." Sweden came up with paternity leave in the 1970s, but women still continue to take about 76% more of the offered time than men do. So the Swedish government said, "Look, if you use your parental leave time equally, we'll give you a cash money bonus."

I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.

There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.

The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.

Oh, and I would really like to see that list as well!

 jorny wrote:
There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.

I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.

The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.

It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.

 LordofHats wrote:
And again, even if it were true that all gamers were introverted white men afraid of change, seriously, wtf? Why the hell would we want a multi-billion dollar industry catering to that? That's depressing.

That is like my big worry with gameing. The idea that we are being given exactly what we want and what we want is just creepy. *shudder*



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

 jorny wrote:
There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.

I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.

The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.

It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.

Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?

Seaward wrote:

It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.

Wow. I have never heard of that before. Fat chance that it'd go through!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seaward wrote:

It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.

Wow. I have never heard of that before. Fat chance that it'd go through!

Well, the headline is pretty disproportionate to the actual article.

Male representatives on the Sormland County Council in Sweden should sit rather than stand while urinating in office restrooms, according to a motion advanced by the local Left Party.

Seaward wrote:

 jorny wrote:
There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.

I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.

The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.

It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.

Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.

That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.

First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.

A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.

nomotog wrote:
Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?

Yes.

Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?

Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jorny wrote:
Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.

That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.

First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.

A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.

Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?

They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.

Seaward wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?

Yes.

Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?

Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jorny wrote:
Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.

That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.

First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.

A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.

Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?

They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.

Of course it is a problem that men aren't taking as much paternity leave, when women have to both work and do most of the work at home. It also affects womens pensions. Are you being deliberatly obtuse when you fail to see the problem, or have you just failed to follow the Swedish debate on paternity leave?

Yes, F! got a seat in the European Parliament. What is your point?

Didn't you guys send like a majority of republicans to your congress? I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.

I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.

Thats one way of putting it

Seaward wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?

Yes.

Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?

Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.

You didn't explain how it worked before so I was wondering, but I see what your talking about now. That is interesting. I can guess that the reason for the gab might be personal (Men hate babies.. unlikely.) Social (Men feel social presser that says they shouldn't use leave.) Work related (Men work jobs that don't allow you to leave for a year and not end up out of depth.)

nomotog wrote:
You didn't explain how it worked before so I was wondering, but I see what your talking about now. That is interesting. I can guess that the reason for the gab might be personal (Men hate babies.. unlikely.) Social (Men feel social presser that says they shouldn't use leave.) Work related (Men work jobs that don't allow you to leave for a year and not end up out of depth.)

Sweden doesn't really strike me as the sort of place where people would feel social pressure not to take time off, but it could be that, I suppose.

Anyway. They have and propose a lot of, to my eyes, nutty gender politics stuff over there. That's the example I'm most familiar with. My understanding is that their paternity laws are pretty weird, too, but I don't know the specifics.

 jorny wrote:

Seaward wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?

Yes.

Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?

Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jorny wrote:
Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.

That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.

First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.

A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.

Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?

They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.

Of course it is a problem that men aren't taking as much paternity leave, when women have to both work and do most of the work at home. It also affects womens pensions. Are you being deliberatly obtuse when you fail to see the problem, or have you just failed to follow the Swedish debate on paternity leave?

Yes, F! got a seat in the European Parliament. What is your point?

Didn't you guys send like a majority of republicans to your congress? I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.

Psssht you misunderstand. Compared to Europe both of our parties are conservatives

I'll be honest I still don't quite get the whole problem with men not taking paternity if it's there and how it affects women's pensions, etc. Granted I can't complain with a law that apparently throws extra money for staying at home (I know that it's more taking care of the child but I had to say it!)

I don't know why Seaward sees the societal pressures for men to spend less time with their children as an apparent good thing, though.

This seems like a bad idea for many reasons not least of all because it could be used as a kind of 'yellow star' by people who oppose the underlying politics.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't know why Seaward sees the societal pressures for men to spend less time with their children as an apparent good thing, though.

Children should be raised by a nanny, the mother should spend a bit of time here and there with them and the father should be a distant, terrible figure who appears only when needed to unleash great wrath or an awkward pat on the back at events like college graduations.

 Bromsy wrote:

Children should be raised by a nanny, the mother should spend a bit of time here and there with them and the father should be a distant, terrible figure who appears only when needed to unleash great wrath or an awkward pat on the back at events like college graduations.

It got us through the 20th century splendidly up until the "hippy problem".

Okay, i've had a think of this, and what is the point?

Wanting to change gender/ethnicity norms and stereotypes in video games is fair enough. But sweden, last time i checked, wasn't primarily involved in creating video games (or am i wrong here?).

Assuming there are too many white guys in video games, what good is a rating system where almost every game on the shelf will be rated: white guy.

It seems a bit to me like having an atmosphere warning, where every day on the evening weather report they mention that the planet still has an atmosphere so everyone can relax and go about their business tomorrow.

I take no shame in admitting that the point of this idea completely escapes me.

edit: but i'm happy to upgrade that to "wow, what a stupid idea" if someone can fill me in.

Seaward wrote:
I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.

C'mon, no. That's just... no. That can't be real.

 LordofHats wrote:
Pacific Rim also fails test, despite Mako Mori being a suprisingly balanced depiction of a woman in a genre that is so macho centric.

She was a terrible character who almost got the entire party killed and stalked the protagonist though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Seaward wrote:
I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.

C'mon, no. That's just... no. That can't be real.

I'm not sure if it is real but I wouldn't be surpriced.
http://freefabulousgirl.com/2013/11/20/swedish-group-wants-to-ban-men-from-peeing-standing-up/

This is what one of the biggest newspapers write in sweden:
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r788/Frutcher/Namnloumls_zps1e4b3888.png

I live in Finland and there is Putin in the east and Tumblr in the west.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lytZ7fYOlgU