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It also gets allover the floor and is a pain to clean up.

nomotog wrote:
It also gets allover the floor and is a pain to clean up.

Your toilet training days must have been fun

 Melissia wrote:
While I've advised actual game devs on the topic, myself (IE invited to meetings to raised my concerns), if we're getting in to a pissing contest about whom supposedly has contributed the most, I would like to point out that like any pissing contest, it serves no real purpose except to try to shut the conversation down.

Hybrid claimed he was pro-active, and I don't disbelieve him, so I was curious about what he's done (or planning to do) to expand inclusivity in games.

I'm happy to drop it though. No one wants wet shoes

My question remains the same: how do these ratings help fix the problem? The "aware and care" camp will be just as aware as before. The "don't care" camp still aren't going to care.

How will the people in the middle feel about games suddenly having to display the race and gender of (presumably) protagonists? Will they see it in a good way, or a bad way.

More importantly, how do these ratings help fix the problem?

Bishop F Gantry wrote:Show me two identical games now that this rating actually would work on favouring one of them, or rather show me two games that are similar enough that such a rating could actually sway the consumer...

Far Cry 3 <-> Tomb Raider
Watch Dogs <-> Sleeping Dogs
Prince of Persia <-> Remember Me
Deus Ex II <-> Deus Ex HR..?

I find it's a bit difficult to find proper comparisons, though, chiefly because there aren't actually a lot of Triple-A games that do sway from the standard, which is exactly the reason for why I think such a rating system might not be a bad idea.

Manchu wrote:What benefit would the video game industry reap by self-regulating about diversity? And what kind of disadvantages must be weighed against those benefits? As I have tried to argue above, I cannot imagine developers or publishers wanting to get involved with something like this.

Developers, at least some of them, already do, when they host intercompany meetings and presentations about these very issues. It's the publishers that still need to get onboard, as right now they appear to be the biggest obstacle.

Manchu wrote:What does a ratings system have to do with a developer figuring out how to make games with more diversity?

Perhaps they think it might put pressure on the publisher, thus loosening established industry standards to allow for more variety? It might all be just about signs, and a rating system is a sign much like community backlash and negative reports in the media.

It's true that companies exist to make profit, but it would be risky to assume that their fancy focus groups will always provide them with good insight into market potential. Especially if said focus groups are biased to begin with simply out of the aforementioned standards and lack in communication between studio and whoever carries out the research.

They don't.

 Lynata wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:Show me two identical games now that this rating actually would work on favouring one of them, or rather show me two games that are similar enough that such a rating could actually sway the consumer...

Far Cry 3 <-> Tomb Raider
Watch Dogs <-> Sleeping Dogs
Prince of Persia <-> Remember Me
Deus Ex II <-> Deus Ex HR..?

I find it's a bit difficult to find proper comparisons, though, chiefly because there aren't actually a lot of Triple-A games that do sway from the standard, which is exactly the reason for why I think such a rating system might not be a bad idea.

I always stated that Nation drake was basic a staffed counter part to Lara croft (who was also a distaff counter part to indy.) Though I guess the new tomb raider shares more in common with far cry 3. The big difference being where the camera is located.... Hmm. That is actually A topic I want to talk about some time, but I'm tired at the moment and I worry about being too hard to deal with.

The watch dogs sleeping dogs comparison is actually a fair one. It's kind of strange how male focused watched dogs is with it's story. (You know put that down as another thing I want to talk about some time.) Sleeping dogs is more gender progressive in well broke nose jane.

Skiping

It's hard to say if Deus ex or HR is more progressive on gender then the other. I would actually award the point to the original because Anna is better then that one girl from HR that I don't recall the name of because well she doesn't do anything other then lick her lips and strike acrobatic poses. (Never make a boss character mute, we learn 90 of their personality from enemy chatter and taunts..)

This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.

Games will slowly become more diverse with time. As it has shown to be. Anyone that disregards the history of the games industry are just fooling themselves.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.

Games will slowly become more diverse with time. As it has shown to be. Anyone that disregards the history of the games industry are just fooling themselves.

No, it's putting a sign at the art gallery saying 'do you like X type of art? Go to wing A! If you like Y type of art, go to wing B.'

A sticker saying what things are in the game is no more censorship than putting a 15+ rating on the side.

Given my conversation with jorny yesterday, it seems more like a set of rules to make art that is "diverse" according to a trade association.

What this is we will not be able to find out until the final report of this preliminary study is done.

This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.

This has nothing to do with censorship. If you want video games to be taken seriously you have to accept that there is debate and cultural critique, just like all other art forms and types of culture. I would say that the fact that there is the beginning of a discussion shows that video games are being taken more seriously.

 jorny wrote:
shows that video games are being taken more seriously

I think it depends on what you mean by "seriously." I don't think all the kerfuffle about video games needing to become more diverse shows people think of them more like literature and art. Seems like people take video games seriously only insofar as there is so much money to be made developing, publishing, reviewing, criticizing, and even just playing them. Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.

 Manchu wrote:

 jorny wrote:
shows that video games are being taken more seriously

I think it depends on what you mean by "seriously." I don't think all the kerfuffle about video games needing to become more diverse shows people think of them more like literature and art. Seems like people take video games seriously only insofar as there is so much money to be made developing, publishing, reviewing, criticizing, and even just playing them. Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.

Yeah, I totally agree that it is tragic that "MOAR MONIEZ!!!" is used as a reason, instead of arguing for it as something that you want to do because you thing it is the right thing to do. Otherwise I think it is good that we are more and more getting a debate that deals with the content of a game, and the ideology and ideas that are inherent in it (sometimes without the developers even knowing it themselves). Because games are a big part of culture in our society.

 jorny wrote:
Because games are a big part of culture in our society.

Yes and this is probably the most important point. I think we are arguing about diversity in video games because (1) we spend a lot of time as a society playing them and (2) the meaning of value of diversity is an urgent issue in our society. In other words, the way we talk about video games probably reflects our larger social concerns precisely because video games are so much more culturally relevant than ever before.

nomotog wrote:I always stated that Nation drake was basic a staffed counter part to Lara croft (who was also a distaff counter part to indy.) Though I guess the new tomb raider shares more in common with far cry 3.

Actually, you make a good point. I did remember the character of Nathan Drake (one of my colleagues has a small statue on his desk), I just couldn't recall either his name or the name of his game - so I went with the next best thing I could think of.

nomotog wrote:It's hard to say if Deus ex or HR is more progressive on gender then the other. I would actually award the point to the original because Anna is better then that one girl from HR that I don't recall the name of because well she doesn't do anything other then lick her lips and strike acrobatic poses. (Never make a boss character mute, we learn 90 of their personality from enemy chatter and taunts..)

I was referring more to Deus Ex II offering you the choice of playing a character of different ethnicity and/or gender, whereas HR took a step back and dictated the industry standard heterosexual white male again. But your analysis has merit, too.

Manchu wrote:Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.

To be fair, cash is what publishers care most about - so I could see it being the most successful argument, even if the original proponents may have more idealistic motivations. Justifying the means with the ends, so to say. Nice words alone don't seem to have much effect on the industry.

 Lynata wrote:
I was referring more to Deus Ex II offering you the choice of playing a character of different ethnicity and/or gender, whereas HR took a step back and dictated the industry standard heterosexual white male again.

Not that I liked HR, or boring white male characters, but what would you have cut out to allow for the resources necessary to include the option?

daedalus wrote:Not that I liked HR, or boring white male characters, but what would you have cut out to allow for the resources necessary to include the option?

Whatever was cut out of the previous game to allow it?

Okay, for real now: no doubt additional options in terms of character customisation would require additional manhours, plus the contract for at least one additional voice actor - but considering the vast amount of cash that is flowing into Triple-A titles such as these nowadays, it's safe to say that the cost to include additional ethnicities and genders would occupy an ever-shrinking percentage of the total budget. In the case of DE:HR, we are talking about a title that has been in development for four years, and where the developers are proud to have spent a large part of the budget on environmental design (and I'm not talking actual map creation, but concept art). This is a game where the budget for marketing was enough to set up fake websites, produce fake TV ads, and even a live action short movie. Yet it's not enough to accomodate for modelling/texturing/animating 1 alternate body type and 5 alternate faces, and to bump up the cast of voice actors from 68 to 69?

Please, let's not buy into Ubisoft PR spins here.

Eidos Montreal was asked in an interview why, unlike with the previous game, they didn't allow for a female character. Their response was not that it would have been too expensive, but that "it wouldn't fit the story".

Bollocks, I say. Although it is at least a more honest answer than Ubisoft's, from their point of view. Though it still doesn't explain why they also skipped out on Black and Asian head options like they existed in DE II. I'm assuming ignorance - which is why I indeed think a rating might help, by calling into memory that it's okay to expand your horizon. It's a shame, really, especially as DE:HR is otherwise an excellent game; I'd even go as far as to say it was one of the best I've ever played.

Now I'm not going to say I quite agree with you on DE:HR too radically. I don't really mind being stuck to one character nor would I really mind having others. If it's in cool if not meh. The advertisements honestly are a bit too much nowadays really.

Thanks for reminding me of Ubisoft's argument though. That was absolutely amazing . Oh look! It's the same assassin with a different color of garment! So when going online not even one choice for your own character? Besides that didn't seem to stop ubisoft from having multiplayer females now did it?

 StarTrotter wrote:
Now I'm not going to say I quite agree with you on DE:HR too radically. I don't really mind being stuck to one character nor would I really mind having others. If it's in cool if not meh. The advertisements honestly are a bit too much nowadays really.

Thanks for reminding me of Ubisoft's argument though. That was absolutely amazing . Oh look! It's the same assassin with a different color of garment! So when going online not even one choice for your own character? Besides that didn't seem to stop ubisoft from having multiplayer females now did it?

Well we now know it was the truth. Women were too hard for them to animate as well as everything. AC unity was just a mess. (Maybe made more sad when you consider it was mad by over 9 studios.)